Yes, because that is how dwarfs work, they would sooner shave their heads than do anything else. That is not some esoteric dwarf lore, that is dwarfs 101. I would imagine the servants of the Goddess of Knowledge would have at least that much understanding of the subject. If they lack that... well it is probably best not to bring them into contact with dwarfs at all.
How much does a Transcendant boon mean to a dwarf? Well, it is something that doesn't have an exact value and seems like there's always going to be some amount of variability when the request is something open-ended, Belegar could think he's only paid out a tenth of a percent of it minus maintenance costs while an heir could feel it was a fifth of a percent minus maintenance costs.
That doesn't at all seem an unreasonable take to me.
Alas. Hekarti's Asur rune, at least, doesn't seem to include a V or a chevron unless you really squint, so that's something.
Any answer on the question regarding the similarity of runes engraved on Mathilde's staff, or is this another question where the answer is 'many symbols can be said to kind of resemble other symbols if you put your mind to it'?
There are no symbols on Mathilde's staff that are outright just a v or a chevron. Many of them sort of include them, in that they have lines meeting at angles.
How much does a Transcendant boon mean to a dwarf? Well, it is something that doesn't have an exact value and seems like there's always going to be some amount of variability when the request is something open-ended, Belegar could think he's only paid out a tenth of a percent of it minus maintenance costs while an heir could feel it was a fifth of a percent minus maintenance costs.
That doesn't at all seem an unreasonable take to me.
At the very least they would maintain the commitments of their ancestors, to do anything else would be to invite shame, that is why I called it bargain basement dwarf lore.
At the very least they would maintain the commitments of their ancestors, to do anything else would be to invite shame, that is why I called it bargain basement dwarf lore.
Sure, the Verenans could reasonably expect the Library is going to keep receiving a reasonable level of upkeep whatever happens. Anything beyond that is much murkier without more established track record though. It even goes down to smaller things like, will the funds currently being put towards construction be shifted to acquisitions or staffing, or were they a onetime surge? Etc, etc.
I really have a hard time believing that the idea pointing to an established track record is more compelling than a guarantee that that track record will happen is a hard one to grok.
As a comparable example, I'm sure at this point most (But not all) people with a reason to know about it are quite confident that the canals will be successfully be dug by the dwarves. However, I also expect the price of effected waterfront property and related facilities will continue to rise as it gets closer and closer to completion.
Sure, the Verenans could reasonably expect the Library is going to keep receiving a reasonable level of upkeep whatever happens. Anything beyond that is much murkier without more established track record though. It even goes down to smaller things like, will the funds currently being put towards construction be shifted to acquisitions or staffing, or were they a onetime surge? Etc, etc.
I really have a hard time believing that the idea pointing to an established track record is more compelling than a guarantee that that track record will happen is a hard one to grok.
As a comparable example, I'm sure at this point most (But not all) people with a reason to know about it are quite confident that the canals will be successfully be dug by the dwarves. However, I also expect the price of effected waterfront property and related facilities will continue to rise as it gets closer and closer to completion.
It is hard to gork is you know anything about dwarfs, they might rules-lawyer things and they might place one oath over the other, but there really sin't much room for that when it comes to the library, since its funds come in cold hard cash . There also isn't much need for that, since even the princely funds of the library are a small sum to the vast wealth of the hold.
We are also not talking about random people here, the sorts who would impact the property market, if that is your standard there are people alive in the empire who do not even believe dwarfs still exist. Here we are talking about scholars with access to vast libraries.
At the very least they would maintain the commitments of their ancestors, to do anything else would be to invite shame, that is why I called it bargain basement dwarf lore.
While no citizen of the Empire would question the integrity of a dwarven king, some might question the integrity of Mathilde Weber, shadowmancer and semi known Ranaldite. Not everyone, but some. If I were a member of the Cult of Verena who wanted to argue against sharing (because I value the prestige that being a gatekeeper to knowledge brings me, or because of genuine religious beliefs, or for both) I could easily say that Mathilde intends to make her library great on the backs of the already existing libraries of the cult. And as proof I would point out that she has reached out to literally no other cult or library and her library is currently still in construction. If she truly wanted to make a great library, and intended to invite the Cult of Verena - famous for it's great libraries - as one collaborator among many, why is she reaching out to us now, when her library consists solely of her personal collection? An impressive collection, admittedly, but no library.
I tell you why, the naysayer might say. Because she intends to build her library on the back of the cult. And to convince us she points to the wealth of king Belegar which she claims she will use for the purchase of many more books in the future, but why would she keep her word once she gains the inexhuastible source of knowledge that is our books? More likely she will use the money promised to her for the sake of her own personal goals, and king Belegar will raise no objection for his honour will not allow him to gainsay she who he credits for the conquest of his ancestral home.
While no citizen of the Empire would question the integrity of a dwarven king, some might question the integrity of Mathilde Weber, shadowmancer and semi known Ranaldite. Not everyone, but some. If I were a member of the Cult of Verena who wanted to argue against sharing (because I value the prestige that being a gatekeeper to knowledge brings me, or because of genuine religious beliefs, or for both) I could easily say that Mathilde intends to make her library great on the backs of the already existing libraries of the cult. And as proof I would point out that she has reached out to literally no other cult or library and her library is currently still in construction. If she truly wanted to make a great library, and intended to invite the Cult of Verena - famous for it's great libraries - as one collaborator among many, why is she reaching out to us now, when her library consists solely of her personal collection? An impressive collection, admittedly, but no library.
I tell you why, the naysayer might say. Because she intends to build her library on the back of the cult. And to convince us she points to the wealth of king Belegar which she claims she will use for the purchase of many more books in the future, but why would she keep her word once she gains the inexhuastible source of knowledge that is our books? More likely she will use the money promised to her for the sake of her own personal goals, and king Belegar will raise no objection for his honour will not allow him to gainsay she who he credits for the conquest of his ancestral home.
I mean if that is the level of malice you want to stoop to one could just as easily say 'look at how she made a deal with those grubby halflings, everyone knows those are thieves. Why would she deal with them if not because she is planning to hire them to rob us?' Halflings are at the end of the day even less trusted than shadow wizards.
It is hard to gork is you know anything about dwarfs, they might rules-lawyer things and they might place one oath over the other, but there really sin't much room for that when it comes to the library, since its funds come in cold hard cash . There also isn't much need for that, since even the princely funds of the library are a small sum to the vast wealth of the hold.
At the end of the day Dwarves do not and cannot control the future, a guarantee by a dwarf might be very close to a guarantee such and such well be done. It is not actually n assurance that will be though. Plus even if it will be done the value of something done in the future is less than something you have in your hand in the present. To me this is quite natural and will naturally impact decision making from other parties. That said we seem to be going around in circles at this point so I'll leave it at that personally.
At the end of the day Dwarves do not and cannot control the future, a guarantee by a dwarf might be very close to a guarantee such and such well be done. It is not actually n assurance that will be though. Plus even if it will be done the value of something done in the future is less than something you have in your hand in the present. To me this is quite natural and will naturally impact decision making from other parties. That said we seem to be going around in circles at this point so I'll leave it at that personally.
Dwarfs cannot control the future it is true, Karak Eight Peaks could fall for instance (it is after all newly reclaimed and there are orcs next door), which is a far more reasonable fear than the dwarfs double crossing you. But that would not be impacted by if you have built shelves or not.
I mean if that is the level of malice you want to stoop to one could just as easily say 'look at how she made a deal with those grubby halflings, everyone knows those are theives'. Why would she deal with them if not because she is planning to hire them to rob us? Halflings are at the end of the day even less trusted than shadow wizards
I really don't see what you're getting at. I'm not leveling some hyperbolic accusations of racism at the Cult of Verena, I'm saying that some in the Cult like being the gatekeepers of knowledge and will look for excuses not to share, and the fact that the library has literally no other collaborators at the moment is such an excuse. Does this really seem to you like some insane amount of malice? It's human nature, and the nature of (some of) the cult as described by Boney.
Will some in the cult be reluctant to share their knowledge with other collaborators of the library, be those halflings or some other groups? Probably. But if so, this will be a problem even if we reach an agreement with the Verenans before we reach agreements with other collaborators. The Verenans might demand that the books they share with us will not be shared with [those grubby halflings/those damn Myrmidians/that other Verenan sect which is clearly wrong about everything] and this will happen even if those groups aren't yet in an agreement with the library. And in that case we will have to decide if that's a deal we are willing to make. But coming from a position of strength, being able to say 'I already have an agreement with [group you don't like] and they already have accesss to all those cool books that you are not going to get if you don't sign on', I believe this will allow us to stand firm and get what we want.
At the end of the day Dwarves do not and cannot control the future, a guarantee by a dwarf might be very close to a guarantee such and such well be done. It is not actually n assurance that will be though. Plus even if it will be done the value of something done in the future is less than something you have in your hand in the present. To me this is quite natural and will naturally impact decision making from other parties. That said we seem to be going around in circles at this point so I'll leave it at that personally.
as it said its possible that karak eight peaks falls (possible but not likely) and if that happens we have bigger problems then a half finished library in a fallen hold.
I really don't see what you're getting at. I'm not leveling some hyperbolic accusations of racism at the Cult of Verena, I'm saying that some in the Cult like being the gatekeepers of knowledge and will look for excuses not to share, and the fact that the library has literally no other collaborators at the moment is such an excuse. Does this really seem to you like some insane amount of malice? It's human nature, and the nature of (some of) the cult as described by Boney.
Will some in the cult be reluctant to share their knowledge with other collaborators of the library, be those halflings or some other groups? Probably. But if so, this will be a problem even if we reach an agreement with the Verenans before we reach agreements with other collaborators. The Verenans might demand that the books they share with us will not be shared with [those grubby halflings/those damn Myrmidians/that other Verenan sect which is clearly wrong about everything] and this will happen even if those groups aren't yet in an agreement with the library. And in that case we will have to decide if that's a deal we are willing to make. But coming from a position of strength, being able to say 'I already have an agreement with [group you don't like] and they already have accesss to all those cool books that you are not going to get if you don't sign on', I believe this will allow us to stand firm and get what we want.
we already have agreements with people that the verenians will not get any books from. one is called the dwarves, one is called the woodelfs and one is called the colleges... i dont really get where your coming from...
I really don't see what you're getting at. I'm not leveling some hyperbolic accusations of racism at the Cult of Verena, I'm saying that some in the Cult like being the gatekeepers of knowledge and will look for excuses not to share, and the fact that the library has literally no other collaborators at the moment is such an excuse. Does this really seem to you like some insane amount of malice? It's human nature, and the nature of (some of) the cult as described by Boney.
Will some in the cult be reluctant to share their knowledge with other collaborators of the library, be those halflings or some other groups? Probably. But if so, this will be a problem even if we reach an agreement with the Verenans before we reach agreements with other collaborators. The Verenans might demand that the books they share with us will not be shared with [those grubby halflings/those damn Myrmidians/that other Verenan sect which is clearly wrong about everything] and this will happen even if those groups aren't yet in an agreement with the library. And in that case we will have to decide if that's a deal we are willing to make. But coming from a position of strength, being able to say 'I already have an agreement with [group you don't like] and they already have accesss to all those cool books that you are not going to get if you don't sign on', I believe this will allow us to stand firm and get what we want.
I mean you based that on the fundamental distrust of shadow wizards because we have not called out on any other cults. From that deeply and unfairly suspicious perspective halfling collaborators are probably as good as or worse than no collaborators as they are broadly thought of as two things in the wider Empire:
A joke
Thieves
As @Codex wrote that is reflected in much of the cannon writings, enough so that it gets uncomfortable OOC.
I mean you based that on the fundamental distrust of shadow wizards because we have not called out on any other cults. From that deeply and unfairly suspicious perspective halfling collaborators are probably as good as or worse than no collaborators as they are broadly thought of as two things in the wider Empire:
A joke
Thieves
As @Codex wrote that is reflected in much of the cannon writings, enough so that it gets uncomfortable OOC.
Ok, straight up, if some Verenans don't want to get in on the library because halflings are involved then fuck them, and I will vote to tell them so.
As for the rest of it, I was saying that thing about shadowmancer in response to your claim that Verenans will trust in the integrity of the dwarf king who is bankrolling the library. I claim that no, they won't, because while Belegar provides the money it's Mathilde that decides what happens with it, and Mathilde is not a dwarven king. In fact she is a shadowmancer and a Ranaldite, two things that don't inspire confidence in most Empire citizens, and that might go double for the Verenans who dissaprove of Ranald.
Ok, straight up, if some Verenans don't want to get in on the library because halflings are involved then fuck them, and I will vote to tell them so.
As for the rest of it, I was saying that thing about shadowmancer in response to your claim that Verenans will trust in the integrity of the dwarf king who is bankrolling the library. I claim that no, they won't, because while Belegar provides the money it's Mathilde that decides what happens with it, and Mathilde is not a dwarven king. In fact she is a shadowmancer and a Ranaldite, two things that don't inspire confidence in most Empire citizens, and that might go double for the Verenans who dissaprove of Ranald.
they will because that "shadowmancer" was declared a dwarf friend, a wizard was declared a dwarf friend. shes also known as "that women who decided that castle drakenhof needed to be waaaaaaaaaaaay more rubble and less castle." we are literally a national hero, a small time one but still.
and how tf would they know we worship ranald? only really close friends know this of mathy and not even all of those know...
Ok, straight up, if some Verenans don't want to get in on the library because halflings are involved then fuck them, and I will vote to tell them so.
As for the rest of it, I was saying that thing about shadowmancer in response to your claim that Verenans will trust in the integrity of the dwarf king who is bankrolling the library. I claim that no, they won't, because while Belegar provides the money it's Mathilde that decides what happens with it, and Mathilde is not a dwarven king. In fact she is a shadowmancer and a Ranaldite, two things that don't inspire confidence in most Empire citizens, and that might go double for the Verenans who dissaprove of Ranald.
The thing is that would be a good reason to ally with say the cult of Sigmar, at best no one will care about the halflings, at worst it will be one more reason to distrust us.
The thing is that would be a good reason to ally with say the cult of Sigmar, at best no one will care about the halflings, at worst it will be one more reason to distrust us.
Again, if there are Verenans (or any other collaborators) that see the halflings as a negative large enough to not want to join our project then I would like to know so that we can emphatically tell them to fuck off.
I do think we will need more than just the cult of Quinsberry if we want to get a good deal from the Verenans, and I would like several other collaborators on board before we reach out to them (though not the cult of Sigmar, for obvious character reasons). I'm probably out of luck, because the votes being what they are even if Quinsberry does pull through we will likely have a majority voting for Verena next turn, but that's what I think.
I'm honestly confused why the library issue is an issue at all. How is the decision between reaching what's basically a glorified trade agreement with the Cult of Actual Books And Libraries And Also Law And Justice Vs the Cult of Making Sure Your Wife Isn't Also Your Sister even a debate?
The way I see it, the reasons for getting Quinsberry are threefold.
First, Mathilde got the idea to get a library when she visited Karaz-A-Karak and saw how they were able to preserve their history. One of the principal goals of the Library is preservation, and preserving the history and books of the Halflings is a worthy endeavor in and of itself, without further reward.
Second, the Library is currently pretty small. One of the themes of this quest is that success breeds success—nobody wants to be the first to commit when things are uncertain, and nobody wants to be the last when things are snowballing. Picking up easy wins early on like Quinsberry makes the Library more attractive to future partners and gives us more leverage.
I don't have strong feelings about the library one way or another. I am mildly skeptical that the Quinsberry cult will have books we actually want -- remember that the mechanical effect of this option is to make new books available during the purchase rounds. For example, last turn we voted to establish contact with the Colleges of Magic library, and we gained this option:
which we had not previously possessed. I can imagine a world where we want books Verenans have; I can imagine a world where we want Bretonnian books; I can imagine a world long in the future where we've learned Tilean and want Tilean books. What does the cult of Quinsberry have that we might reasonably want soon?
Mechanically/for the Waystone Project, probably nothing. This is a dichotomy between the Library as Mathilde's personal and professional search engine, and the Library as her legacy and edifice of preservation.
Again, if there are Verenans (or any other collaborators) that see the halflings as a negative large enough to not want to join our project then I would like to know so that we can emphatically tell them to fuck off.
I do think we will need more than just the cult of Quinsberry if we want to get a good deal from the Verenans, and I would like several other collaborators on board before we reach out to them (though not the cult of Sigmar, for obvious character reasons). I'm probably out of luck, because the votes being what they are even if Quinsberry does pull through we will likely have a majority voting for Verena next turn, but that's what I think.
I should probably make it clear that while discrimination against Halflings is endemic it is not that virulent outside of Stirland, any dislike is likely to be mixed with ten times that measure of contempt, so they most likely would not care about Quinsberry unless we were unlucky and found a Stilander.
oh i can absolutely see the good in it. the halfings in karak eight peak will love it and the moot might too. i just find it unimportant and would like to do other things first. but thats a thing with pretty much every decision we vote for in this thread.
Halétha sometimes uses a tree which can sort of look like a X, Haleth sometimes uses a pair of horns which can look like a v, Shallya uses a dove in flight which can look like a v. As for Hekarti, here's the Asur depiction of Her rune:
Problem is, you can find a V or a chevron in any symbol with multiple non-parallel lines if you put your mind to it.
I spent way too long searching for where this rune comes from, going through every Eltharin Rune I could find to see where it is, until I realised that you took it from the Asur Pantheonic Mandela, probably by flipping the image and screenshotting it.
After that frankly embarrasing search, I decided to put my efforts at deciphering that rune. Comparing the structure of this complex rune, it actully strikes me as perhaps consisting of four runes. Please bear with my speculation, I'm probably very wrong, but I enjoyed the process. If you want to understand my ramblings, the runes are on this page.
First, the circle at the very bottom was very familiar to me. There aren't a ton of straight forward circles in Eltharin runes, and this one was more of an oval since it was wider than it was tall. The only runes with circles are Avalu (Mark of Vaul), Isalt (Mark of Ladrielle) and Tavlu (Mark of Hoeth), as well as the one that I think is being depicted here, Drome (Underworld Stair, Descent, Inevitability). Except it seems like Drome's circle was removed from the bottom of the rune and transported here, and it was given legs at the bottom and a stick down the middle instead of its original form where it was on top of two stilts. It's basically an inversion of Drome, which is funny because Dromui (Hope, Ascent, Heavenward Stair) exists and it doesn't look anything like Drome. This probably has to do with Hekarti being Cytharai.
The other parts were more complicated and harder to spot. My theory for the second rune spliced in there is Sarumar (Temptation, Discipline, Watcher in the Dark). This is not intuitive, because the way that Sarumar was spliced in there is that the rune was turned sideways and sliced apart. Sarumar is a rune with three sideways lines and three arrows pointing down at the top, as well as a hook at the bottom. The sideways lines were placed along the middle line, the arrows interspersed throughout, and my theory is that the hook is part of that uppermost sideway line on the main spire in the middle.
The third rune I'm speculating about is that inverted hook to the left, facing away from the central spire. My theory is that that rune is an inverted, stretched out Sariour (Moon, Magic, Fortune, Evil Deeds, Destruction wrought by Nature), perhaps combined with the general shape of the closely related Saroir (Eternity, Infinity, The Flame of Love that burns all it touches).
The final rune I'm speculating on is whatever rune is creating that sort of P shape at the top, with the curves and everything. There are a ton of Rune that have a similar shape, but none are an exact match, so my current take is that it might be a modified Yenlui (Balance, Harmony, Chaos).
So if I'm correct, the runes involved are:
Inverted Drome: Drome represents Underworld Stair, Descent, Inevitability. Might represent her status as Cytharai.
Sideways Sarumar: Sarumar represents Temptation, Discipline, Watcher in the Dark. This could represent the temptation of magic and the discipline needed to tame and control it, and the Watcher in this case perhaps refering to Tzeentch, who is eager to inflict his Curse (miscasts).
Combined and stretched out Sariour and Saroir: Sariour represents Moon, Magic, Fortune, Evil Deeds, Destruction wrought by Nature and Saroir represents Eternity, Infinity, The Flame of Love that burns all it touches. This could represent magic and its nature I suppose.
Modified Yenlui: Yenlui means Balance, Harmony and Chaos. I think this is obvious. Chaos is the source of magic, and Balance and Harmony are required to control it (from an Elven mindset).
I might be stretching for some of these, and I don't think I fully, 100% correctly deciphered it, but I had fun doing it.
EDIT: I should have checked the rest of the Runes for the gods. Yeah all the Cadai have the same Circle with a Crown and all Cytharai have the same Circle with Horns indicating where they belong on the scale. Drome might be the inspiration, but it's probably just the Cytharai rune.
I don't understand the effort to try and paint legitimate concerns about institutional capture as completely unreasonable and impossible.
This is the bullet points of the argument.
- they have different beliefs and principles for what a library should be than we do.
- they have the only real culture of library construction and management in the old world.
- at least some will be eager to help a new library get of the ground- especially those frustrated by the lack of advancement opportunities where they are.
These are all things that are true and obvious, and are true even when they have the best of intentions towards us.
Please do not pretend that any malice or deceite is implied in this argument.
Secondary arguments from that:
- we will have more respect and negotiating power with the (multiple, independent) Verenian libraries IF we are a functional library and not a construction project asking for help.
- bringing in the halflings early is a smart political move
- just about everything we want from the Verenians we want *later*, so why bring them in early?
I apologize with getting so heated about it. You are right that your not the worst culprit but you did step into the exact same footsteps of arguing that the verenians could realistically take over any part of the kau.
That would be me. And you've yet to give any reason they couldn't or wouldn't, given your arguments seem to rely on gigantic exaggerations for effect while I'm largely concerned about differences in not sure the dwarves would really even notice.
The fact that you don't seem to understand what I am actually concerned about or trying to do by putting Quinsberry in front of the line before Verenians means it's hard to take your arguments against as anything but overly aggressive takedowns of strawmen.
[x] Plan Compromise + Verenans
- [x] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays gold costs.
- [x] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm
-- [x] Shadowsteed & Clarity, allowing the user to ride all night without sleep
- [x] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (JOHANN)
- [x] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
- [x] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
- [x] Investigate Alric
- [x] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
- [x] LIBRARY: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
- [x] SERENITY: Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
- [x] COIN: The Night Prowler
*Elder Race cough* I think it is fair to say that both the dwarfs and elves were building libraries long before the ancestors of those Verenans were even literate. This is not just me being glib mind, but a reminder that this is a library in a dwarf Karak where the Verenans would have practically no support for any sort of 'institutional capture'.
This is an assumption that is not based on fact, because Verenans revel in the differences between them. I'm 100% sure we can find someone who matches our belief and principles of what a library should be and happens to be a Verenan. That is just what it means to be a Verenan, that they're not a monolithic entity with a central structure that tells them what and how to think and believe.
i doubt this very much. the only even halfway political entity in the halfling society is the lodge and yes, they do partially share the name but the lodge and the library of quinsberry are (as far as we know) absolutely not connected. the only thing we get out of this are geneaology records that the halflings of karak eight peak might like... and as rude as this is, they dont matter in the politics of the karak, at least as far as we and the library are concerned. (they do have influence over the food production but eh, we really dont care about that.)
we might want help setting up the library and thats kinda hard if we go "later" also if we can bring on the verenians early everyone else who isnt impressed by a whole karak being behind the library (the few that would not be) will be also more willing to play ball. at least thats my view.
