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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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At this point I'm open to having the library action be either Verena, Tilea, or Quinsberry.

If a solid argument or a bunch of people with a strong preference for any of those choices comes up, I'd be willing to adjust (or not adjust, in the case of Verena.)
 
I already made a pitch for Quinsberry so I'll just quote myself:
mathymancer said:
As some one who is supporting getting contacts in Bretonnia this turn, I have to say that Quinsberry is a great idea and I'll support it next turn (and if this turn it's going to come down do Quinsberry or some other cult I'll go with Quinsberry).

The library should start with easier targets. The books and prestige we'll get from one collaborator will assist with getting the bigger organizations, which probably won't be as interested in the library as it currently stands. And I think the Quinsberry cult is a good first target.

Credit to @Jreengus for coming up with this idea. I'm kind of mad that I didn't come up with this myself because it's so obvious in retrospect. Quinsberry is the halfling God of tradition and knowledge, there's a library dedicated to Him and offerings to Him include books. He's basically the equivalent to Verena's aspect as the Goddess of knowledge in the halfling pantheon, and when the option came to have our library be pious he was mentioned along with Verena, Hoeth and Valaya, so there should be no doubt that His cult will be a useful source of books.

As Marshal Titus Muggins told us, the purpose of the halfling expedition to Karak Eight Peaks was to put some of the halfling eggs in another basket. The expedition has certainly done this with the population of the Moot, and so we now offer the cult of Quinsberry the opportunity to do it with the knowledge of the Moot. If the Moot is lost in some disaster tomorrow some halflings will survive, yes, but think of all the knowledge and history and tradition that will be lost. We graciously offer the halflings a chance to have a copy of all of the significant works and records of the halflings safely stored within The Library of Karak-Eight-Peaks, and in return we ask for a copy of all of their insignificant works as well. And also they may copy our books too I guess.

Now if you pay close attention you'll notice that the deal is that we get books, and in return we agree to get even more books. Pretty good deal, if you ask me. And I think the cult of Quinsberry will be inclined to agree.
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Redshirt Army said:
At this point I'm open to having the library action be either Verena, Tilea, or Quinsberry.

If a solid argument or a bunch of people with a strong preference for any of those choices comes up, I'd be willing to adjust (or not adjust, in the case of Verena.)
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I don't know if it's solid so to speak, but I want Verena and her followers in on the ground level.

everything about the library is her jam, and her followers will make up the vast majority of humans that we will want to hire in the future. and will be the people most in on the idea of 'super-Libaray'

its a gift to the mother-in-law.

and plus, Nerd Knights! literal orders of knight of Verena will set up bases around the bigger Libaray towns.

got to love Nerd Knights.

basically, my argument is that its narratively satisfying.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
The thing is, I want the Verenans to know about the Library early and interacting with it early, even at the cost of 'bang for your buckness'.

once past the early suspicions, they are the people that will be most gun-ho about helping and applying for jobs or even offering support of their own volition (later... and obviously not that sub-cult) once they realise that A) we are being honest about the 'for everyone' bit, B) want to do something that will really help human history and study that hasnt been done before. and C) see the 'hollllllyyyyyyy Shiiiiittttt!!!!' level of funding that we will be getting from the dwarfs.
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Boney's said before, the Cult in general isn't focused on spreading knowledge.
Boney said:
The Cult of Verena is very decentralized and has no official head apart from Verena Herself. There are portions of it that do try to spread knowledge, but there are others that quite like the power and prestige of being the gatekeepers of it instead. And one big problem that the Cult has is that there's knowledge out there that other powers really don't want preserved, and often for pretty compelling reasons. This means the idea that some of their knowledge needs to be kept to themselves is one that no part of the Cult can fully shake off, because some of that knowledge is proscribed and forbidden.

Safeguard knowledge, says the first of the Cult's strictures. Yes, but what about- All knowledge, says the second. If Mathilde dropped the Liber Mortis in their laps, they'd be required to preserve it. The Codex of Unspeakable Damnation, a how-to guide on building a Chaos Cult and summoning Daemons? Yep. The Black Book of Ibn Nagazzar, which allows even the most talentless of people the ability to cast Death and Shadow Magic for the low, low price of blood sacrifice for each casting? All knowledge means all knowledge. The Liber Bubonicus, which comes with samples of every single plague to have ever ravaged the world? The Liber Caelestior, a book of insane prophecy that broke the faith of he who would become Archaon? The Chromatic Tome, which is literally a Daemon that tweaks the lessons on magic within on the fly to better drive the reader into heresy and damnation? Did Verena fucking stutter? All. Knowledge. Preserve it.

So... yeah. Secrecy is built inextricably into the bones of the Cult of Verena.
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i am kinda confused why we want genealogy records from the moot for our library... like if we want connections with the quinsberry lodge... ask the hochlander to set up a meeting? and if we want the halflings of karak eight peak to feel more home... maybe ask them what they need?
 
Tobtorp said:
i am kinda confused why we want genealogy records from the moot for our library... like if we want connections with the quinsberry lodge... ask the hochlander to set up a meeting? and if we want the halflings of karak eight peak to feel more home... maybe ask them what they need?
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What? You can't ask people what they need! You have to assume it, and then fulfil that assumed need in the most complex way possible.
 
Tobtorp said:
i am kinda confused why we want genealogy records from the moot for our library... like if we want connections with the quinsberry lodge... ask the hochlander to set up a meeting? and if we want the halflings of karak eight peak to feel more home... maybe ask them what they need?
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The proposal wasn't about the Quinsberry Lodge.
Jreengus said:
I was thinking of the library mentioned on the wiki:


The idea is to help record the halflings living here in 8Peaks while also storing copies of all the records in our extremely well secured dwarfhold library so next time something burns down the Moot they don't have to worry.
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Mopman43 said:
Yes, that's the point. We've got a bunch of Moot Halflings, getting their records and books would be something for them.
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ehhh, not convinced... might be a thing for later when the library is really established but when its this new? lets actually get some books in that have use cases. how about we go for some engineering texts for the gunnery school?
 
Tobtorp said:
ehhh, not convinced... might be a thing for later when the library is really established but when its this new? lets actually get some books in that have use cases. how about we go for some engineering texts for the gunnery school?
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That'd be something for the purchase vote.

For this vote, these are our options:
Boney said:
[ ] Seek the publishing contacts to start acquiring large amounts of books from a nearby realm (specify which: Bretonnia, Kislev, Tilea/Estalia, Araby)
Gives wide and easy access within a language, but is subject to local restrictions and is a less efficient use of the Library's acquisition budget than other methods.
[ ] Seek an exchange arrangement with another Library to be able to make copies of their corpus (specify which, eg: Great Library of Marienburg, Great Library of Altdorf, Ancient Library of Carroburg)
Difficulty will depend on the size, prestige, and disposition of the library in question, and the relative impressiveness of Kron-Azril-Ungol.
[ ] Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (specify which, eg: Verenans, Myrmidians, Sigmarites)
Difficulty will vary heavily depending on the Cult in question, but can allow access to rare tomes and esoteric subjects.
[ ] Set up a no-questions-asked bounty system for books within the Cult of Ranald
Results will be unreliable and depending on what is sought may result in blowback, but this may allow you to acquire books that would otherwise be entirely inaccessible.
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I suppose you could try the College of Engineering or Imperial Gunnery School under the "another library" option, but I'm not sure you'll find success there.
 
I don't have strong feelings about the library one way or another. I am mildly skeptical that the Quinsberry cult will have books we actually want -- remember that the mechanical effect of this option is to make new books available during the purchase rounds. For example, last turn we voted to establish contact with the Colleges of Magic library, and we gained this option:
Boney said:
Library Purchases:
[ ] [LIBRARY] Colleges of Magic: name four magical, non-divine topics to acquire all available Empire books on.
[ ] [LIBRARY] Barak Varr booksellers: name three public topics to acquire all available Empire and Dwarven books on.
[ ] [LIBRARY] Library of Mournings: name two non-magical topics to hire Cityborn scribes to copy all available Laurelorn books on.
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which we had not previously possessed. I can imagine a world where we want books Verenans have; I can imagine a world where we want Bretonnian books; I can imagine a world long in the future where we've learned Tilean and want Tilean books. What does the cult of Quinsberry have that we might reasonably want soon?
 
Tobtorp said:
ehhh, not convinced... might be a thing for later when the library is really established but when its this new? lets actually get some books in that have use cases. how about we go for some engineering texts for the gunnery school?
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Boney said:
Engineering +14 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven / Extensive and Esoteric Skaven (T)
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We're pretty full up on that topic already.

The way I see it, the reasons for getting Quinsberry are threefold.

First, Mathilde got the idea to get a library when she visited Karaz-A-Karak and saw how they were able to preserve their history. One of the principal goals of the Library is preservation, and preserving the history and books of the Halflings is a worthy endeavor in and of itself, without further reward.

Second, the Library is currently pretty small. One of the themes of this quest is that success breeds success—nobody wants to be the first to commit when things are uncertain, and nobody wants to be the last when things are snowballing. Picking up easy wins early on like Quinsberry makes the Library more attractive to future partners and gives us more leverage.

Third, Panoramia would probably approve :V

picklepikkl said:
I don't have strong feelings about the library one way or another. I am mildly skeptical that the Quinsberry cult will have books we actually want -- remember that the mechanical effect of this option is to make new books available during the purchase rounds. For example, last turn we voted to establish contact with the Colleges of Magic library, and we gained this option:

which we had not previously possessed. I can imagine a world where we want books Verenans have; I can imagine a world where we want Bretonnian books; I can imagine a world long in the future where we've learned Tilean and want Tilean books. What does the cult of Quinsberry have that we might reasonably want soon?
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Mechanically/for the Waystone Project, probably nothing. This is a dichotomy between the Library as Mathilde's personal and professional search engine, and the Library as her legacy and edifice of preservation.
 
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[X] Plan Quinsberry Compromise

I like this version.

Plan Compromise & Plan Stacking advantages (since its rather excellent edit) are almost there for me, but I'm keen to have the EIC investigate trade with Lauerlorn rather than look into Gryphon Wood (as I think Mathilde can handle it alone), and I think we should really hold off on Verenans until we have more leverage.

I'll also say that @mathymancer has persuaded me that going for the Norlander Hedgewise should be a priority, but perhaps we can do that next turn, after we get the Ward of Frost involved? Not keen on the overall plan as I really don't think we should send Engrimm to investigate Alaric, or your EIC action choice is no my preference.
 
ReImagined said:
The way I see it, the reasons for getting Quinsberry are threefold.

First, Mathilde got the idea to get a library came when she visited Karaz-A-Karak and saw how they were able to preserve their history. One of the principal goals of the Library is preservation, and preserving the history and books of the Halflings is a worthy endeavor in it of itself, without further reward.

Second, the Library is currently pretty small. One of the themes of this quest is that success breeds success—nobody wants to be the first to commit when things are uncertain, and nobody wants to be the last when things are snowballing. Picking up easy wins early on like Quinsberry makes the Library more attractive to future partners and gives us more leverage.

Third, Panoramia would probably approve :V


Mechanically/for the Waystone Project, probably nothing. This is a dichotomy between the Library as Mathilde's personal and professional search engine, and the Library as her legacy and edifice of preservation.
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When you put it like that, I dig it. We've got four extremely mechanically powerful options available right now: Colleges of Magic option is up to 1000gc/16CF of value, Barak Varr Booksellers is up to 1500gc of value, Library of Mournings is 500gc of value but texts we otherwise don't have commercial access to, and Backfill is probably on the order of 1500-2000gc of value but without the ability to direct it. That's pretty bananas as is. We don't need to prioritize mechanical efficiency at this point if the narrative effects are strong enough, and I guess I do like the narrative effects of bringing on-board the third literate species of Karak Eight Peaks.
 
Argent Citadel said:
[X] Plan Quinsberry Compromise

I like this version.

Plan Compromise & Plan Stacking advantages (since its rather excellent edit) are almost there for me, but I'm keen to have the EIC investigate trade with Lauerlorn rather than look into Gryphon Wood (as I think Mathilde can handle it alone), and I think we should really hold off on Verenans until we have more leverage.

I'll also say that @mathymancer has persuaded me that going for the Norlander Hedgewise should be a priority, but perhaps we can do that next turn, after we get the Ward of Frost involved? Not keen on the overall plan as I really don't think we should send Engrimm to investigate Alaric, or your EIC action choice is no my preference.
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I also thought Eonir trading was tempting at first, but thinking about it, we don't need to rush it. Using the EIC as support during one of our own investigation would be pretty cool and Gryphon Woods is might be something pretty major if we were deemed the appropriate response to the problem.

Seeing our organisation work from the inside during their work one the terrain is sure to be insightful.
 
I ended up convinced of the benefits of starting off with Quinsberry. I don't think that we were planning on buying books from the Verenans next turn anyhow, so just getting the feather in our cap for future collaboration discussions, plus neat narrative benefits, was enough to sell me on it. We can then negotiate with the Verenans next turn and say we have a library spanning the ancient records of four races instead of three. :V

I've updated my plan accordingly.
 
Thinking on it, would trade links through the EIC piss off that one Vaul House we visited? Were they solely concerned about goods from Ulthuan, or did it also include human goods?
 
Mopman43 said:
Thinking on it, would trade links through the EIC piss off that one Vaul House we visited? Were they solely concerned about goods from Ulthuan, or did it also include human goods?
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I believe their issue was was in regards to Ulthuan specifically, but the broader underlying issue was getting undercut by outside competition offering comparable or superior products for lower prices. So who they're concerned about might expand as they get to know about the existence of other potential competitors in more detail. It would probably lack the emotional punch for them in comparison to Ulthuani goods though, which they've built up as a bugbear for centuries.
 
Mopman43 said:
Thinking on it, would trade links through the EIC piss off that one Vaul House we visited? Were they solely concerned about goods from Ulthuan, or did it also include human goods?
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Malthitides opinion on their issue with outside trade seems to be this.
Boney said:
You also gain an understanding of why House Miriel is opposed to cooperation with Middenheim, where genuine doubt about the unreliability of humans is bolstered by concern for their carefully-guarded pride. House Miriel is renowned for their craftsmanship among the Eonir, but will that still be the case if the economy of Tor Lithanel is joined, however tenuously, with that of Ulthuan? What will it do to their reputation if goods from the forges of Caledor, the workshops of Tiranoc, the jewellers of Eataine, begin to trickle in via Marienburg, or possibly by direct trade via the Schaukel? Not the noblest of motivations, but not an uncommon one, either. A similar dynamic plays out fairly often when human craft guilds find themselves competing with imported Dwarven goods. Big fish in small ponds have a habit of getting quite concerned about a sudden connection to the ocean.

But despite all that, they are willing to go along with the majority vote, and to do business with yourself at rates no worse than those available to any citizen of Tor Lithanel. If this is the worst of the attitudes of those amongst the isolationist bloc, then there's reason to be optimistic of the future of relationships between the Empire and Laurelorn.
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Thev've also had full stop monopoly on trade in Laurelorn because they have the craftsmen of vaul priesthood so a shattering of their millenia monopoly since erhaps the days close to Laurelorn's founding as I imagine this house is old is...
Boney said:
Laurelin's explanations for why that is are as enlightening as you could have hoped for. Laurelorn's Smith-Priests labour in the tunnels and caverns below the Rainbow Falls, where the magic in the waters from the Tarn of Tears flows through after being shattered upon the rocks of the falls. To even enter them takes a great deal of training to allow an utterly neutral mindset, or else part of the flowing Winds will be drawn to that person's soul and cause turbulence that can quickly grow into a vortex of Dhar. Part of that preparation is the ritual blinding common to Priests of Vaul, and the time spent in such close proximity to the constant tumult of the falls as they wield the Winds to bend mundane materials to their will renders these craftsmen as deaf as they are blind, only able to communicate with other members of the Cult of Vaul through methods protected as holy secrets. This creates a virtually unassailable monopoly on craftsmanship, as these artisans communicate only with their correligionists, which is under the unofficial but almost total control of House Miriel.
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Redshirt Army said:
I ended up convinced of the benefits of starting off with Quinsberry. I don't think that we were planning on buying books from the Verenans next turn anyhow, so just getting the feather in our cap for future collaboration discussions, plus neat narrative benefits, was enough to sell me on it. We can then negotiate with the Verenans next turn and say we have a library spanning the ancient records of four races instead of three. :V

I've updated my plan accordingly.
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I simply disagree. So, at the risk of being far too pedantic, here's a plan variant:

[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans
-[X] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays gold costs.
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm
--[X] Shadowsteed & Clarity, allowing the user to ride all night without sleep
-[X] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (JOHANN)
-[x] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
-[X] Investigate Alric
-[X] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
-[X] LIBRARY: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
-[X] COIN: The Night Prowler

(I promise not to make any modifications to this unless it's to match modifications made to the original. This plan does what it says, simple as that.)

[X] Plan Pickle's Political Protector Proposal
[X] Plan Stacking Advantages
[] Plan Compromise

Edit: Removed an approval vote.
 
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