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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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The Quinnsberry Lodge doesn't currently have a foothold in Karak Eight Peaks, because humans who make a habit of mocking people for being short, stocky, and obsessed with their profession have an extremely bad time in Dwarfholds.
 
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Codex said:
I'm not sure if you know what Quinsberry's "Cult" looks like. The Halflings don't have official cult organisations like the humans do. The closest thing to a cult you'll get is a very well organised Empire wide faction with great resources. I don't think you want to get them in on the ground level of our library.

They're called the Quinnsberry Lodge. And they're a double edged sword.

"The Lodge dislikes such messier extremes (things go so much more smoothly when everyone works together) and it hates to involve Human parties (why hire Human thugs when Halfling thugs sit idle?) but it is sometimes vital these things are done, and the Lodge's hands remain clean of them. They have no remorse, however, because everything they do is for the betterment of Halflings everywhere."

They're an important part for ensuring Halflings are treated properly in the Empire, but they're also pretty dangerous.
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I was thinking of the library mentioned on the wiki:
In particular, Quinsberry is venerated by Halfling scholars, and there is a library dedicated to him containing complete records and history of every Hafling bloodline. Offerings to Quinsberry include books, tapestry, and gold.
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The idea is to help record the halflings living here in 8Peaks while also storing copies of all the records in our extremely well secured dwarfhold library so next time something burns down the Moot they don't have to worry.
 
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Jreengus said:
I was thinking of the library mentioned on the wiki:


The idea is to help record the halflings living here in 8peaks while also storing copies of all the records in our extremely well secured dwarfhold library so next time something burns down the moot they don't have to worry.
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Oh, that's a 4th Edition WFRP thing. No wonder I couldn't remember that being a thing in 2nd Edition. 2nd Edition only gives him the Lodge, no library or anything. The implication was that Halflings learnt their ancestry through word of mouth, and their point of pride was being able to recite their ancestors to up to twenty generations from both maternal and paternal sides.
 
mathymancer said:
Thanks, but I know that list, it's why I suspected Haletha in the first place.

I honestly don't think the search space is as big as some make it out to be. We are not looking for ANY fertility Goddess, we are looking for a Goddess of fertility (or mercy, or charity, or healing) that ALSO has connections to Ranald (stealth, deception, luck, protection) and more than one connection because she should resemble Ranald more than Shallya.

If I understand Boney correctly protection and fertility are common enough if you consider them in a symbolic way - 'nurturing a community'. But Haletha is a Goddess of protection in the literal sense of protecting people from concrete danger AND she is the patron of an oppressed group which fits Ranald's facet as protector AND she is a Goddess of literal fertility in the sense of childbirth (which is the sense that Shallya is connected to fertility) AND she is connected to stealth and shadows.

I get that there are a lot of fertility Goddess, but some times I feel like we're looking for a suspect with a hat, jacket, blue eyes and red hair, and people are saying that we have nothing to go on because lots of people wear hats.
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Protection from real and physical threats is the province of basically all gods, the threat is different, but all of them are supposed to protect you from something when it comes to the widely worshiped human gods, since you know the world is hell and there are a lot of things to be scared it. Name a (non-proscribed) human god and they have a protective aspect:
  1. Sigmar: Chaos, necromancers, orcs etc...
  2. Mor: The living dead
  3. Ranald: Internal corruption and exploitation
  4. Ulric: -see Sigmar, maybe drop the necromancers-
  5. Verena: Unjust laws and lords
  6. Taal: Unnatural things that live in the woods, like beastmen
  7. Rheya: Starvation and want
  8. Shaylla: Plague and injury
For Haletha she is not connected to stealth and shadows, she is the one who is protecting you from the shadows. Saying that she is connected to shadows and stealth is a bit like saying Mor is connected to those things because he protects you from the undead who often live in the dark. that said I do think Haletha is the best we have, just that it is in the sense of having minimal evidence as opposed to none of it.
 
Codex said:
Oh, that's a 4th Edition WFRP thing. No wonder I couldn't remember that being a thing in 2nd Edition. 2nd Edition only gives him the Lodge, no library or anything. The implication was that Halflings learnt their ancestry through word of mouth, and their point of pride was being able to recite their ancestors to up to twenty generations from both maternal and paternal sides.
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Actually that's a good point I haven't considered. @Boney since it's 4th edition is the library containing the bloodline records cannon?
 
DragonParadox said:
Protection from real and physical threats is the province of basically all gods, the threat is different, but all of them are supposed to protect you from something when it comes to the widely worshiped human gods, since you know the world is hell and there are a lot of things to be scared it. Name a (non-proscribed) human god and they have a protective aspect:
  1. Sigmar: Chaos, necromancers, orcs etc...
  2. Mor: The living dead
  3. Ranald: Internal corruption and exploitation
  4. Ulric: -see Sigmar, maybe drop the necromancers-
  5. Verena: Unjust laws and lords
  6. Taal: Unnatural things that live in the woods, like beastmen
  7. Rheya: Starvation and want
  8. Shaylla: Plague and injury
For Haletha she is not connected to stealth and shadows, she is the one who is protecting you from the shadows. Saying that she is connected to shadows and stealth is a bit like saying Mor is connected to those things because he protects you from the undead who often live in the dark. that said I do think Haletha is the best we have, just that it is in the sense of having minimal evidence as opposed to none of it.
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Her runes are literally conductive to shadow magic, and a Lord Magister believes that she stole the domain the Grey college resides in (another LM thinks that domain is the Hedge of the Hedgewise which she is a patron of).

And protection from physical harm is absolutely not a domain of most minor Gods, unless you have a way of spinning the Goddess of scribes as being as much of a protector as the Goddess of protection from a spooky forest.

AND she protects the Hedgefolk, which includes protection from the state since they are hunted by the law, which is the specific brand of protection associated with Ranald.
 
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mathymancer said:
Her runes are literally conductive to shadow magic, and a Lord Magister believes that she stole the domain the Grey college resides in (another LM thinks that domain is the Hedge of the Hedgewise which she is a patron of).

And protection from physical harm is absolutely not a domain of most minor Gods, unless you have a way of spinning the Goddess of scribes as being as much of a protector as the Goddess of protection from a spooky forest.

AND she protects the Hedgefolk, which includes protection from the state sibce thet are hunted by the law, which is the specific brand of protection asdociated with Ranald.
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Hmm... true, that is still a reach since it goes down quite a chain of logic, but at least there is a magically significant connection. It would go:

Ranald -> Is probably an elf god too because a dragon told us... -> Loec -> is indirectly associated with shadow magic though his domain of shadow... -> Ulgu ->... can be channeled though a lot of divine runes, which include -> Haletha

You have two intermediaries in there which do not work for sure, but it is still an easier sell than say the Lady.
 
DragonParadox said:
Hmm... true, that is still a reach since it goes down quite a chain of logic, but at least there is a magically significant connection. It would go:

Ranald -> Is probably an elf god too because a dragon told us... -> Loec -> is indirectly associated with shadow magic though his domain of shadow... -> Ulgu ->... can be channeled though a lot of divine runes, which include -> Haletha

You have two intermediaries in there which do not work for sure, but it is still an easier sell than say the Lady.
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Not at all. Ranald's runes are also conductive to shadow magic, no need to reach through Loec.
 
My current theory is that Ranald budded off of Loec to create his own identity at some point as he integrated into human society, becoming a separate god, but having a similar origin and neighboring domains to his progenitor gives him a similar energy signature to Loec that Deathfang would recognise and because he was once Loec he still feels guilty over the actions that Loec took against Elinill and wanted to make up to the Kislevite gods, who are likely surviving Elinilli who gained human worshippers and changed as a result.

I dunno I'm trying to reconcile Ranald's similarities to Loec while also acknowledging that I personally do not think they're the same. There's too many differences for me to reliably say they're the same god, but there's too many similarities for me to say that they were never the same at any point. I'm just spitballing at this point.
 
mathymancer said:
Not at all. Ranald's runes are also conductive to shadow magic, no need to reach through Loec.
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You know what, between the shadow and the one childbirth spell (for Shayla/Isha) I think there is actually a decent case to be made for Haleha even in the absence of her sister... but not enough of a one to put off the project. Given that the restructuring of the framework is not automatic, but more of a case of large revelations, I think I could be sold on going for the hedgewise next turn... though it should be noted we have the Lights' chief heresy hunter on the job with us and she is unlikely to be as nice about people in breach of the Articles by breathing on Imperial soil than we are.
 
Going to steal @Derpmind's EIC, Library, and Serenity actions to finish my outline. On one hand, I'm a bit worried about the EIC not really having a presence that far north, and the warnings we got from Ostermark about expanding in their direction. On the other hand, this kind of task does match the justification we have of Grey Order business.

[ ] Plan Adventure Time
-[ ] MAX: Learning: How to fly a Gyrocopter
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Alric with Johann and Egrimm
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with Johann, Max, and Egrimm
-[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project: The Ward of Frost.
-[ ] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project: Ice Witches
-[ ] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[ ] COIN: The Night Prowler
-[ ] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
-[ ] LIBRARY: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
-[ ] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windsoak Mushrooms book 1/2
 
We absolutely should be hitting up the waystone ourselves before any framework action part of the con we're running here is that Mathilde Personally was involved in what happened at K8P. Right now Mathilde is playing a hander of poker with at best a pair of 2s. Investigating a waystone personally is something that has the potential to make that a three of a kind.

I know the update has given people a kick towards the frame work, but I took that as a "Don't spend forever in the recruiting phase" we shouldn't rush into the opposite direction.
 
Codex said:
I'm not sure if you know what Quinsberry's "Cult" looks like. The Halflings don't have official cult organisations like the humans do. The closest thing to a cult you'll get is a very well organised Empire wide faction with great resources. I don't think you want to get them in on the ground level of our library.

They're called the Quinnsberry Lodge. And they're a double edged sword.

"The Lodge dislikes such messier extremes (things go so much more smoothly when everyone works together) and it hates to involve Human parties (why hire Human thugs when Halfling thugs sit idle?) but it is sometimes vital these things are done, and the Lodge's hands remain clean of them. They have no remorse, however, because everything they do is for the betterment of Halflings everywhere."

They're an important part for ensuring Halflings are treated properly in the Empire, but they're also pretty dangerous.
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I don't know that the Lodge is all that much of a Cult of Quinsberry. If nothing else, I haven't seen anything to suggest that the Lodge has any real presence in the Moot itself, where presumably Quinsberry has some sort of Priesthood.
 
[ ] Plan: Jyn Draft.3
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Johann and Egrimm)
-[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Ward of the Frost)
-[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: Have Lord Magister Krammovitch introduce you to the Hedgefolk of The Forest of Shadows to get your foot in the door.
-[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: use the pretext of your recent interest in Hekarti to contact and get the feel of House Tindomiel
-[ ] COIN: The Father
-[ ] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
-[ ] Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
-[ ] Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)

[ ] Plan: Jyn+ debt free Draft
-[ ] MAX: Learning: How to fly a Gyrocopter
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Alric with Johann
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with Johann and Egrimm
-[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Ward of the Frost)
-[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: Have Lord Magister Krammovitch introduce you to the Hedgefolk of The Forest of Shadows to get your foot in the door.
-[ ] COIN: The Father
-[ ] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
-[ ] Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
-[ ] Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)

I really don't what to start The project this turn, I want to at least talk to the Hegewise and Clan Tindomiel before deciding if it's worth waiting for them or getting started next turn.

and if we are going to the Gryphon woods anyways (every plan has it) then why not talk to the Hedgewise and get some synergy going?

[ ] Plan: Jyn+laying fodation Draft
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Johann and Egrimm)
-[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Ward of the Frost)
-[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: Have Lord Magister Krammovitch introduce you to the Hedgefolk of The Forest of Shadows to get your foot in the door.
-[ ] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
--[ ] The Gambler
-[ ] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
-[ ] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
-[ ] Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
-[ ] Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)

but as there is enough different to my plan, I'll have a version that starts the project

thoughts? things to add or argue?
 
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I am not sure if we should bring Max on our camping trip through the dark woods, he has some combat capabilities don't get me wrong, but he is squishy and this time there is not steam wagon to shoot off of.
 
Mopman43 said:
I don't know that the Lodge is all that much of a Cult of Quinsberry. If nothing else, I haven't seen anything to suggest that the Lodge has any real presence in the Moot itself, where presumably Quinsberry has some sort of Priesthood.
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Page 126 and 127 of Tome of Salvation 2nd Edition:

"Of all the races within the Empire, Halflings could be said to be the least obviously religious. Halflings prefer to celebrate the here and now rather than the heroes and deeds of the forgotten past, worshipping their Gods when circumstances require it, but not giving themselves over to piety. Most Empire folk—especially those in Stirland—would say that the only thing a Halfling worships is the drink in his flagon and the food in his belly.

It is true that Halflings are a comparatively irreligious folk, their somewhat happy-go-lucky nature at odds with serious, organised religion. When practised, the Halfling faiths are more often used as a thinly veiled excuse to feast (much as many Humans do, if truth be told—Halflings are just more honest in their motivations)."

"Of the four major races, Halflings are the most irreverent. Setting aside the fact that Halflings have no talent for magic, the small folk are so completely unsuited to the idea of venerating anything that to even broach the topic to them would result in endless gales of laughter, perhaps followed by a proper robbery to teach the uncultured fool a good lesson. The Halflings do have their Gods, certainly, but no Halfling could be bothered to commit himself to daily and nightly prostration in the name of anyone, let alone some invisible presence that does nothing but sit around and eat and have dalliances with its siblings. When a pious mood does settle on Halflings, a festival results, and a few locals are selected to officiate the affair, being bribed heavily not to get overly drunk so that they may maintain at least the appearance of ceremony"

The official source for religion in 2E treats the Halflings like a joke, so there isn't much material on Quinsberry that isn't the Lodge.
 
ReImagined said:
Going to steal @Derpmind's EIC, Library, and Serenity actions to finish my outline. On one hand, I'm a bit worried about the EIC not really having a presence that far north, and the warnings we got from Ostermark about expanding in their direction. On the other hand, this kind of task does match the justification we have of Grey Order business.

[ ] Plan Adventure Time
-[ ] MAX: Learning: How to fly a Gyrocopter
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Alric with Johann and Egrimm
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with Johann, Max, and Egrimm
-[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project: The Ward of Frost.
-[ ] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project: Ice Witches
-[ ] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[ ] COIN: The Night Prowler
-[ ] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
-[ ] LIBRARY: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
-[ ] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windsoak Mushrooms book 1/2
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Even if I'm not for Attempting to bring people in before talking to them, please consider the Hedgewise before the Ice witchs, we have an in with the HW, not so much with the Ice Witchs.
 
One thing to note is that bringing Egrimm to investigate Alric seems a really bad idea for several reasons. a) divided loyalties doesn't just apply to us. Even Egrimm himself notes that he's in Alric's Faction, even as he awaits Alric's downfall. If we directly involve him, it might force him to choose between the two of us, and i'm Not 100% sure he would choose us. b) he's probably a lot less subtle than us, and quite well known to Alric besides. Not a great bet for subtle investigation. c) he's actively enjoying not being involved with Alric. I'd rather not drag him back into that mess.
 
Hydroplatypus said:
One thing to note is that bringing Egrimm to investigate Alric seems a really bad idea for several reasons. a) divided loyalties doesn't just apply to us. Even Egrimm himself notes that he's in Alric's Faction, even as he awaits Alric's downfall. If we directly involve him, it might force him to choose between the two of us, and i'm Not 100% sure he would choose us. b) he's probably a lot less subtle than us, and quite well known to Alric besides. Not a great bet for subtle investigation. c) he's actively enjoying not being involved with Alric. I'd rather not drag him back into that mess.
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All fair points, editing my votes to take this into account now.
 
Hydroplatypus said:
One thing to note is that bringing Egrimm to investigate Alric seems a really bad idea for several reasons. a) divided loyalties doesn't just apply to us. Even Egrimm himself notes that he's in Alric's Faction, even as he awaits Alric's downfall. If we directly involve him, it might force him to choose between the two of us, and i'm Not 100% sure he would choose us. b) he's probably a lot less subtle than us, and quite well known to Alric besides. Not a great bet for subtle investigation. c) he's actively enjoying not being involved with Alric. I'd rather not drag him back into that mess.
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I see those as perfect reasons to involve him. He knows Alric's MO, he has chip on his shoulder, and he'll be interested in what's happening and not blow it.
 
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