Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
Jreengus said:
Is there a reason given for this? And a reason why lances are apparently ok for normal knights if the lady disapproves of them so much?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Lady doesn't disapprove of Lances, they are the symbol of Knighthood. This is why Questing Knights can't use them, they're setting aside their lance and giving up all their connections and obligations to go on the Quest, and are as a result generally restricted to their Questing Sword. They can't use Lances because they're no longer a Knight of the Realm and they're not a Grail Knight yet. It's a metaphorical thing.
 
Last edited:
A lance is a very powerful weapon. The mass and momentum of a charging horse and rider concentrated to a point is very capable of obliterating what it impacts. But it very often also obliterates itself, so to use them for prolonged engagements you need to ride back to support personnel for a new one. Done right, it's sort of like a ballista volley, with about the same rate of fire. While this is a very powerful way to do war, it's a tactic for an army on a battlefield, not for a hero on an adventure. A Questing Knight is not supposed to pick off one enemy and then go back to his support crew for a new lance to do it all again, they are supposed to face overwhelming odds alone with nothing but their sword and their faith.

It might also be symbolic, because the word 'lance' or phrase 'lance fournie' was also used to mean the retinue of a knight. To quest, one gives up their retinue, and so their lance.
 
1. Only people with certain set of genitalia can become Grail Knights.
2. Only men (cis or trans) can become Grail Knights.
3. Lady says only men can become Grail Knights, therefore anyone who becomes a Grail Knight must be a man, no matter what anyone else might claim.
 
Valmond said:
1. Only people with certain set of genitalia can become Grail Knights.
2. Only men (cis or trans) can become Grail Knights.
3. Lady says only men can become Grail Knights, therefore anyone who becomes a Grail Knight must be a man, no matter what anyone else might claim.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That might just be the dumbest thing that might actually be true...
It makes too much sense and is still dumb as hell...
 
Valmond said:
1. Only people with certain set of genitalia can become Grail Knights.
2. Only men (cis or trans) can become Grail Knights.
3. Lady says only men can become Grail Knights, therefore anyone who becomes a Grail Knight must be a man, no matter what anyone else might claim.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
4. The Lady said nothing about the gender of grail knights, but the only way a woman can be a knight in brettonia is to deceive others into believing she is a man, and liars cannot become Grail Knights.
 
The Lady could be functioning like a sovereignty goddess representing the land of Bretonnia, the Grail a sex metaphor, and she's straight.
 
Or this could be sloppy, poorly considered writing coming after the "Bretonnia bad" phase kicked into full swing, damn the incoherency.
 
Knights of the Grail emphasized the social restrictions on women on Bretonnia, but also explicitly said in a sidebar that they did that because "women pretending to be men make interesting characters in a roleplaying game" and that it can be freely ignored if you want.

"No one knows how many disguised women there are in Bretonnia at any one time, but solely among the nobility, a Knight is found on his death in battle to be a woman at least once per year."

"Female Bretonnian player characters must pretend to be men in order to start their careers. This pretence is automatically successful and requires no Tests of any sort. Unless the woman reveals her true sex, no one notices."
 
Last edited:
DragonParadox said:
I really do not see that, the Lady really does not like or care for peasants and she does not bless them, also if the smiths had magic they would have been snatched out of their cradles by fey.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I tend to find the argument that the Lady doesn't care about peasants uncompelling. If she didn't care about peasants, why have the knights protect them at all? Plus the birth-swords are going to knights.

No? They might be taken by servants of the Lady, but AFAIK, that's it for those with magic who get taken away (and canonically, not all of them go off with the Fay Enchantress, at least some go to the Empire and study at the Colleges).

Codex said:
It might be for rule reasons. Monsters can't join units, they can only be Ridden, and only by specific characters. Since Ariel isn't playable, there is no one to ride him, so he's just a solo unit (although he has a unique rule that lets his Hounds join him).

Never being part of another unit might be for balance reasons, since Orion's pretty damn powerful stat wise. It means he can never benefit from "Look Out Sir!" enhanced version (I think he can still benefit from the nerfed Look Out Sir!).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As Boney says, it's mostly about model size, and Orion has a big model. He's like twice as tall as any other Elf, and is larger than Drycha. Can't benefit from any version of Look Out, Sir! though, because the nerfed version still requires a unit of 5 rank and file models of the same troop type within 3".

It's interesting to see you say that you think Orion is powerful, because general consensus is that, in 8th, he's an overpriced glass cannon you should skip.

Mopman43 said:
Ariel was playable back in 5th edition. Not since then, which I never quite got.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ariel last got stats in 4th edition, and while the setting was recognizable, the game certainly played very differently. Ariel the giant moth might not have sold well enough to justify it either.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
I tend to find the argument that the Lady doesn't care about peasants uncompelling. If she didn't care about peasants, why have the knights protect them at all? Plus the birth-swords are going to knights.

No? They might be taken by servants of the Lady, but AFAIK, that's it for those with magic who get taken away (and canonically, not all of them go off with the Fay Enchantress, at least some go to the Empire and study at the Colleges).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

She cares about the existence of peasants in abstract, but she does not ask or as for as I know want the worship of peasants and I cannot think of a single instance where she blessed a peasant and they stayed a peasant. Generally if you are blessed by the Lady of the Lake congratulations you are a knight.

Oh sure they get taken away by servants of the Lady... generally fey or if Knights of the Grail is to be believed wood elves. While some prospective magic users may be able to escape capture, that is not really an indication that she wants them loose IMO.
 
Last edited:
Mopman43 said:
It was pretty explicit in Knights of the Grail.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thanks. I have now found the relevant fragment:
Grail Knight Career said:
It is not possible to enter this career unless the Lady of the Lake has appeared to you and offered you a sip from the Grail. The Lady only appears to true sons of Bretonnia whom she judges to be worthy, so foreigners, women, and peasants cannot enter this career.
(...)
Note: Only male Bretonnian nobles can become Grail Knights. The Lady of the Lake is not fooled by disguises.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
DragonParadox said:
She cares about the existence of peasants in abstract, but she does not ask or as for as I know want the worship of peasants and I cannot think of a single instance where she blessed a peasant and they stayed a peasant. Generally if you are blessed by the Lady of the Lake congratulations you are a knight.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes?
I mean, if the local goddess decides to demonstrably place their favour on someone, it would seem like the kind of thing that will get you up from the bottom rung of society?
Why would peasants blessed by the lady not staying peasants be a mark of her not caring about peasants?
I have no idea what, if anything, Lady thinks of peasants, but that does not feel like a compelling argument.
 
Valmond said:
I mean, if the local goddess decides to demonstrably place their favour on someone, it would seem like the kind of thing that will get you up from the bottom rung of society?
Why would peasants blessed by the lady not staying peasants be a mark of her not caring about peasants?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, there's an example given of both outcomes. Repanse de Lyonesse received a mission from the Lady to drive out the Norscans invading at the time, did that, and became the Duchess of Lyonesse. And then there was the peasant from D'Ason who had a vision within a ruined Grail Chapel, and used said ruins to construct the very first trebuchet in the Old World, which then went on to repel a Norscan raid. For his labours, he was awarded a fat pig and two coppers by the Royarch.
 
Mopman43 said:
For some reason, I always get confused and think the first WE book was 5th edition.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Easy way to remember it is that WE only got books in even numbered editions.

DragonParadox said:
She cares about the existence of peasants in abstract, but she does not ask or as for as I know want the worship of peasants and I cannot think of a single instance where she blessed a peasant and they stayed a peasant. Generally if you are blessed by the Lady of the Lake congratulations you are a knight.

Oh sure they get taken away by servants of the Lady... generally fey or if Knights of the Grail is to be believed wood elves. While some prospective magic users may be able to escape capture, that is not really an indication that she wants them loose IMO.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Even assuming she only cares about the peasantry as food sources, why chivalry? Why have the ideal of being a good ruler, and protecting the peasants? It's not actually necessary, because the Empire doesn't have nobles with those same ideas pounded into their heads fro the day they're born and it gets on fine.

The association of knighthood with the Lady's blessing may very well be a Bretonnian cultural artifact, rather than one the Lady put into place herself.

Knights of the Grail pretty explicitly says the Fay Enchantress comes to take the kids as well. Although it also claims that the Fay Enchantress is an Elf. Because Knights of the Grail is very interested in Bretonnia being a terrible place, built on lies. I tend to prefer the army books, where at least the ideals of Bretonnia are true, even if feudalism still makes it terrible. And the Army Book says only that the Fay Enchantress comes to take them, not the fay.
 
Valmond said:
Yes?
I mean, if the local goddess decides to demonstrably place their favour on someone, it would seem like the kind of thing that will get you up from the bottom rung of society?
Why would peasants blessed by the lady not staying peasants be a mark of her not caring about peasants?
I have no idea what, if anything, Lady thinks of peasants, but that does not feel like a compelling argument.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

OK let me try to put all this together:
  1. The Lady only ennobles peasants very very rarely in times of dire need and that is with the obvious intent of making them knights Repanse for instance was called to be a knight, not just a holy peasant.
  2. Pesants are not expected and indeed in some versions of the setting forbidden to worship the Lady, they are expected to show their devotion through obedience to their oaths to their lords of by following a Grail Knight along. It is matter of some debate if they care or indeed notice the mob of fanatics following along on the battlefield
  3. Lastly no other god does this, demands the worship of the nobility while discounting that of the peasants
This whole conversation started with the notion that the peasant smiths of Carcasone are blessed by the Lady, well if so they would be the only peasants so blessed as far as we know... and limited to a single duchy for some reason.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top