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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Omegahugger said:
I mean, a not uncommon theory is that there's a connection between Sotek and Sigmar, considering that both are connected to Twin-tailed Comets and that in recent editions Sotek is not neccesarily an Old One.

Would also help explain why Sotek the Snake's pictogram is on the Obernarn Stone.
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How do you figure? I'm pretty sure the Obernarn Stone is pre-Imperial, Sigmar wasn't a god yet.
 
kingreaper said:
So we're revealing, according to various of your plans:

1) That we can recognise what god is beneath a cult.
2) That we can convert our AV into the divine energy of any god we have a relic for.
3) That we can store the energy of god-like entities in crystals (so we can show off the Waaagh)

And hoping that no-one will find out about the fingerprints?
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We could reveal any or all of them. This is not the vote for that, also we would not have to reveal all this to the same people. Compartmentalization is a thing when you are a super-spy just like the idea of lying, the whole world does not share notes.
 
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Mopman43 said:
How do you figure? I'm pretty sure the Obernarn Stone is pre-Imperial, Sigmar wasn't a god yet.
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Sigmar wasn't a god yet by that name.

Doesn't mean he wasn't going by a different name. That's kind of the point of the Truth option, working out whether or not gods of different names are connected and/or the same.
 
To give an example of the above and what I mean:
  1. That we can recognise what god is beneath a cult.-> This goes under a pile of Magister Grey track covering, only the head of the college and a few others know this
  2. That we can convert our AV into the divine energy of any god we have a relic for. -> Only Ranald and people who see us in life and death situations can see this
  3. That we can store the energy of god-like entities in crystals (so we can show off the Waaagh) -> Lots of people see this, that is the point

The person who can most likely put this together is Ranald and as @veekie pointed out the odds of him not already knowing are slim to none, he gets plausible deniability anyway
 
picklepikkl said:
Where are you getting this from? None of it is found in the text. If we go Truth, we are keeping it a secret from Ranald -- or trying to, because either he doesn't know and would be mad if he found out or he's trying to maintain plausible deniability for our shenanigans.
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It's a realization I had upon rereading the text - there is no mention made of hiding it from Ranald. Secrecy from Ranald only gets mentioned in a "he might not have noticed" context, not in a "I'll have to keep this from him" context.

Boney said:
You roll the crystal in your hand. Doing this once is curiousity and ignorance. But doing it again? That would be a declaration of war against the secrecy of the Gods and the Cults. One they might not realize you have made, but if they ever do...

But they might not, not if you're clever and careful. And through collection and careful study you might be able to achieve an understanding of the Gods that perhaps only They can currently boast.

You sit in your laboratory, stare at the crystal, and think.
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If you look at what Mathilde is actually thinking, she says hide it from the gods as a whole rather than Ranald in particular. The same is true for the wording of the actual vote.

Also use actual quotes rather than paraphrasing in a way that makes me sound ridiculous - I never said
picklepikkl said:
"Truth is about using divine knowledge in cooperation with Ranald"
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I said:
Lurker of Urk said:
Faith just means that Mathilde decides that divinity can't / shouldn't be understood, and places her faith in Ranald for all of that stuff.

Truth means that Mathilde won't just give up and say "It's ineffable." when faced with divine mysteries, and will actually try to understand - this does not prevent her from attempting to help Ranald perform miracles, I'd actually argue that truth is better for that with Ranald's cooperation.
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Ranald won't stop being our friend or helping us for not sacrificing our research to him. Truth won't end our relationship with him.

Edit: the closest that Mathilde comes to secrecy from Ranald is the flustered "Quick! hide the smut, there's someone at the door!" moment she has when she thinks he's in the room. Which is just reflex rather than a long term decision to hide stuff from him.
 
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Talking about the whole cults hating Mathilde because of this?
Do people think she's going to just walk up to the flame of ulric or something to get a sample?

I'm not sure why people seem to think that Lady Magister Mathilde Weber would suddenly become incapable of keeping a secret.

Have we not kept the Liber Mortis for years with out telling a single soul?
 
NavySeel said:
Talking about the whole cults hating Mathilde because of this?
Do people think she's going to just walk up to the flame of ulric or something to get a sample?

I'm not sure why people seem to think that Lady Magister Mathilde Weber would suddenly become incapable of keeping a secret.

Have we not kept the Liber Mortis for years with out telling a single soul?
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That is a worry some people have, mainly due to the fact she literally considered doing that in the update. Everyone in the thread has their own idea on what is too risky or what is an acceptable target and plenty of voters don't comment so it's hard to judge exactly what we will end up doing if Truth wins.
 
Jreengus said:
That is a worry some people have, mainly due to the fact she literally considered doing that in the update. Everyone in the thread has their own idea on what is too risky or what is an acceptable target and plenty of voters don't comment so it's hard to judge exactly what we will end up doing if Truth wins.
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Assuming both the worst case scenario and Mathilde suddenly becoming incapable of intrigue is kind of ridiculous to me.
 
Jreengus said:
That is a worry some people have, mainly due to the fact she literally considered doing that in the update. Everyone in the thread has their own idea on what is too risky or what is an acceptable target and plenty of voters don't comment so it's hard to judge exactly what we will end up doing if Truth wins.
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I still feel like people keep forgetting that boney actually said that we could get the fingerprints just from minor divine artifacts, no flame of ulric, an actual blessed talisman would be enough. It's just harder to differentiate what is and is not a genuine artifact, which yes probably costs us a bit ap in research but is much safer...
 
First we took the secret of Necromancy from the vampires

Then we took the secret of Waaagh Magic from the orcs

Next we took the secret of Queekish from the skaven

Now we seek the secret of the Waystones from the elves and dwarves of the past

Is the secret of godhood a step too far? Or is not far enough?
 
Lurker of Urk said:
Also use actual quotes rather than paraphrasing in a way that makes me sound ridiculous - I never said
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I do not feel I substantively misquoted you when I paraphrased:
Lurker of Urk said:
she'll use her knowledge of the divine in cooperation with Ranald
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to
picklepikkl said:
"Truth is about using divine knowledge in cooperation with Ranald"
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That's what you said! In those words! I didn't paraphrase much! I altered one tense!
Lurker of Urk said:
It's a realization I had upon rereading the text - there is not mention made of hiding it from Ranald. Secrecy from Ranald only gets mentioned in a "he might not have noticed" context, not in a "I'll have to keep this from him" context.
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Boney said yesterday that we'll be keeping it secret from Ranald if we vote Truth.
Boney said:
If your main priority is continuing the research, there's no benefit to telling Ranald. Either He's against it and bad things happen, or the consequences for what happens if it gets found out just got a whole lot worse for everybody because now Ranald is implicated.
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Godhood is lame tbh, still not sure why people want to go for that beyond the fact that they just very slightly have a thin possibility of it.
 
Jreengus said:
That is a worry some people have, mainly due to the fact she literally considered doing that in the update. Everyone in the thread has their own idea on what is too risky or what is an acceptable target and plenty of voters don't comment so it's hard to judge exactly what we will end up doing if Truth wins.
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229 people are voting for Faith; a significant portion of those people are doing so due to risk aversion.

If Truth wins, there are Faith voters who'll want to go all in and Truth voters who'll want to go with ludicrous caution, but on the whole, I don't expect the playerbase to be super aggressive with this.

Poking the Flame was an obvious idea that Mathilde came up with over maybe a minute of consideration, not a suicide pact.
 
MiracleGrow said:
Godhood is lame tbh, still not sure why people want to go for that beyond the fact that they just very slightly have a thin possibility of it.
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Exactly, humanity posseses the tools to understand and dissect Godhood through the power of Truth.

Faith is inherently a position of subservience, reject Godhood, embrace Science!

No Gods or Kings, only man.
 
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NavySeel said:
Do people think she's going to just walk up to the flame of ulric or something to get a sample?
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Boney said:
Almost against your will, various plans unfold in your mind. Plans like: the Sacred Flame of Ulric is accessible to the public, and it is not uncommon for people to light their own fires off of it. It would be trivial to bundle a phial of Vitae and a crystal inside an oil lamp, and then appear to light it from the Sacred Flame. Then walk away, with Ulric's fingerprint alongside Ranald's in your collection. Similar plans in dozens of other places - the Great Cathedral of Sigmar, the Taalwelt, the Black Sepulchre, the High Temple of Manann...
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I mean, why not? It says it right there, and I don't see why it wouldn't be feasible.

Anyways, most of the arguments talking about discovery at this point are more of an if found out sort of deal. Something to be considered when evaluating risk, not a certainty. The odds of it happening aren't 1, but they aren't 0 either.
 
picklepikkl said:
"Truth is about using divine knowledge in cooperation with Ranald"
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picklepikkl said:
I do not feel I substantively misquoted you when I paraphrased:
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Truth is not about Mathilde using her knowledge to cooperate with Ranald and I never said so. Truth is about analysing the divine. Mathilde has used her knowledge in cooperation with Ranald from the very beginning, and voting truth will not stop that.

Edit: you were paraphrasing me into saying something that is untrue, which is why I objected, and you changed more than just a tense.
 
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picklepikkl said:
The issue is this: let's say we start fingerprinting gods and using that knowledge for the express use we know we have for it, distinguishing gods of uncertain identity. Let's say we then, later, find out an awesome application of AV for Teclisean magic, be that enchanting or refueling winds on a battlefield or some cool power stone. We are then in a bind, because if we publish our results and share AV so that other people can benefit from that awesome application, someone will eventually repeat our experiment and discover how it is we've been discerning gods of uncertain identity, and then we're in an awkward position.
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If we give AV to the colleges there is nothing preventing someone else from repeating this experiment no matter which option we choose here. Truth lets us understand the limits of this research and determine wether we can give it to the colleges in good conscience.
 
Lurker of Urk said:
Truth is not about Mathilde using her knowledge to cooperate with Ranald and I never said so. Truth is about analysing the divine. Mathilde has used her knowledge in cooperation with Ranald from the very beginning, and voting truth will not stop that.
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Won't it?
Seriously, won't keeping this kind of thing a secret from Him impact our mutual trust? I am not saying it will for sure do, but I suspect it very much might.
 
Lurker of Urk said:
Truth is not about Mathilde using her knowledge to cooperate with Ranald and I never said so. Truth is about analysing the divine. Mathilde has used her knowledge in cooperation with Ranald from the very beginning, and voting truth will not stop that.
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What do you mean by 'used her knowledge in cooperation with Ranald,' in the context of the Boney quote that @picklepikkl mentioned? If there are zero benefits to telling Ranald, what sort of cooperation are you thinking of?
 
Lurker of Urk said:
Truth is not about Mathilde using her knowledge to cooperate with Ranald and I never said so. Truth is about analysing the divine. Mathilde has used her knowledge in cooperation with Ranald from the very beginning, and voting truth will not stop that.

Edit: you were paraphrasing me into saying something that is untrue, which is why I objected, and you changed more than just a tense.
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Lurker of Urk said:
Going truth doesn't mean that Mathilde's partnership with Ranald ends, it just sets the tone for it - she'll use her knowledge of the divine in cooperation with Ranald
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"Going truth doesn't mean X, it means Y" is substantively the same as "Truth is about Y." I repeat that I do not think I misquoted you.

In any event, I have already provided a QM quote that if we go Truth, we will not be pursuing this avenue of research in cooperation with Ranald, but in secrecy from him, so I don't really see how this matters.
wrecksalot said:
If we give AV to the colleges there is nothing preventing someone else from repeating this experiment no matter which option we choose here. Truth lets us understand the limits of this research and determine wether we can give it to the colleges in good conscience.
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Sure. The question is whether we have done something that will earn the enmity of the cults if discovered. If we start going cult-classifier (which, to reiterate, is the only use of this knowledge that has been out-and-out confirmed to be possible), publish, and someone else finds the use for it, then we're in hot water. We can avoid this by either "not classifying suspect cults" or by "not publishing," but we can't do both risk-free. If we don't choose Truth and someone else ends up using AV for it, it's no skin off our nose.
 
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wrecksalot said:
If we give AV to the colleges there is nothing preventing someone else from repeating this experiment no matter which option we choose here. Truth lets us understand the limits of this research and determine wether we can give it to the colleges in good conscience.
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advanced Magesight, years of experimentation with AV, the Avatar trait with the ability to actually feel the presence of divine energy, ease of access to a divine artifact and having knowledge and experience using a obscure crystal tool crafted by elves.

Well, the regular crystals might work too, guess it's only slighty more secure than the knowledge and materials to craft a thermonuclear device.

But yes, Understanding what can be done is infinitely safer than burying the research and hoping the universe forgets it can be done.
 
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