Now that you mention it. I wonder if one of the effects of Faith would be Ranald now knows about AV and what it can do, and sends one of his disciples to pursue this line of research.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
By... showing them the crystals containing the whole 'identity theft' problem, that we've been told is very very very dangerous to show???
- Location
- South Africa
In the case of sacrificing wheat and grain you are permanently giving up the option to eat that grain - you would have more grain to eat without the sacrifice than with it. Thus it is meaningful. In the case of studying something, having one less copy when we have enough materials to make an excess of copies is not a meaningful sacrifice.
And while Ranald can certainly make his own decisions he also is aware that we can make our own decisions. Thus why would he spit on our sacrifice by rejecting it.
Moreover, how would us understanding Ulric etc. better advance Ranalds plan. If useful, I can see Ranald asking us to make and sacrifice other fingerprints (although I think this unlikely, but still possible), but that process will not advance our personal research.
In summary Ranald will not tell us to stop or to continue personal research, because we have pre-emptily made the decision to stop and Ranald respects that.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Also, I'm a bit confused at Mathilde's words here:
I find this weird. Is she that caught up in her power fantasy that her paranoia atrophied?
No reason for him to be watching her? Does she remember this moment?
Ranald is capable of instantly reacting to "the Widow may be willing to forgive" and then hear what she has to say, and she was just having a conversation. Mathilde has been experimenting with the coin for hours and dripping AV into it, but she seems to be under the impression that Ranald somehow wouldn't notice. Maybe she's overrelying on Avatar to sense his presence, when this is the Night Prowler. For all she knows he might be hiding his presence so he can see what she does when she thinks she isn't being watched. But the super paranoid Mathilde didn't even consider that option in her inner monologue when a few updates ago she thought Thorek was an imposter setting up an assassination because he said he was going to meet her in K8P.
I find this weird. Is she that caught up in her power fantasy that her paranoia atrophied?
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Okay, you know what, no. Forget whether this is a betrayal, forget declaring war on the gods or what could be learned. I'm going to vote Faith for one simple reason. We stole Ranald's identity… and I want to brag about it. I want him to know that Mathilde, out of all his worshippers, had and will continue to have that capability. Because mugging Mork is one thing, tearing a mountain from Slaanesh's grasp another. But stealing Ranald's, the Trickster God's very identity? On accident, no less? That's the sort of thing that would make him grin like a madlad and give all the headpats. I want him to know that Mathilde is that good.
Pempelune
Fanfiction Deep State
I don't know why people are saying Truth might allow us to ascend. I think we should majorly draw down our expectations on that one. If we started collecting dog's pawprints we wouldn't learn how to become a dog either.
What we will gain is a much better understanding of gods and the nature of godhood, which we can feed into Mathilde's growing understanding of the nature of magic. It's insanely valuable, but it won't somehow turn her into a god.
Personally, I think I'll choose Truth. Faith is the objectively reasonable choice, but I'm reading this to be entertained and being prudent is not how you get that.
What we will gain is a much better understanding of gods and the nature of godhood, which we can feed into Mathilde's growing understanding of the nature of magic. It's insanely valuable, but it won't somehow turn her into a god.
Personally, I think I'll choose Truth. Faith is the objectively reasonable choice, but I'm reading this to be entertained and being prudent is not how you get that.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Not going to lie this is pretty on the nose and definitely put to words something I was already feeling.
- Location
- Washington
That straight up is just both in universe and out of universe one telling of that story. Other tellings exist both in universe and out of universe that do not include an urchin at the end going "that was itself a trick." That is indeed what that particular telling of that story clearly says but the thing is there is no particular reason to privilege that version of the story over all the others.
Where is the idea that there's identity theft involved coming from? Taking a photograph of someone is not a form of identity theft. Impersonating someone is identity theft, but there's not even the slightest hint in the update that impersonating gods is on the cards.
And this isn't someone's credit card details. There's also no hint whatsoever that taking a picture of what a god's energy looks like would allow you to steal their actual power from the Aethyr.
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- Location
- France
I see three obvious ways around this:
- We only reveal this exists to the small number of LMs with good enough Magesight (and knowing Mathilde it'll probably only be other Grey Order LMs, and not Starke). It's not like we need this to be a mass-produced skillset, it just needs to be available to the experts who could potentially use it.
- We don't show them to anyone. We use them to develop that skill ourselves, and then we go around solving those problems personally with our "amazing Lord Magister Grey Order secrets we won't tell anyone"
- Location
- Void
Considering that a Wizard quite literally handles raw chaotic potiontal and have to take deliberate steps to distance themselves from normal mentality to use it...might be a little bit of the inner insanity coming to light.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Yea there's multiple stories about how Ranald became a god, or was always a god, or is the only god and every other divine being is Ranald having a lark with every one.
Can I come back to asking people talking about the 'identity theft' problem to explain why this has anything to do with identity theft? And do so while explaining how their definition wouldn't cover taking a photograph or painting a portrait of someone?
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Boney.
And this copyright infringement is of Ranald's essence. It is literally a facet of Ranald. It could not be more definitionally his identity.
That's two, and Mathilde's good enough with seeing Divine energy she can already detect that kind of stuff. The first option is basically just a novelty, assuming that any Lord Magister would consider this.
- Location
- Moscow
If we just wanted an answer we would like then there's no point in asking. And for all that Verena is the goddess of law she's also the goddess of science (and both domains are relevant in this case).
- Location
- South Africa
It's not identity theft in the sense that we will try to fake being Ranald, however the level and nature of the information provided is bigger and more thorough than a photograph or portrait, thus identity theft is used to convey the extent of the information, but not the usage of the information. The usage is more like the a photograph in that it is used to study and analyse.
For the record, you should operate under the assumption that you will lose forever what you are sacrificing. The Gods get real stroppy about people that try to wriggle out of that, just ask King Minos about his marriage problems. It's not impossible for Ranald to pull a Binding of Isaac and allow you to keep what you were about to sacrifice, but that's definitely not something you should be counting on.
Truth will allow the voters to steer where Mathilde turns her attention, but there's no guarantee that the vote will go the way you want it to. If you're against even the possibility of investigating the Ancestor Gods or Ranald further, go Faith or Prudence.
If your main priority is continuing the research, there's no benefit to telling Ranald. Either He's against it and bad things happen, or the consequences for what happens if it gets found out just got a whole lot worse for everybody because now Ranald is implicated.
The case for why Ranald might have noticed went unspoken because it's obvious, she's mucking around with His Coin and His energies and it's not impossible that that might have drawn His attention. The case for why He might not have is less readily apparent.
This definition can be used to put the word 'identity' next to the word 'theft' here, but it absolutely does not match what is normally meant by the phrase 'identity theft'.
Truth will allow the voters to steer where Mathilde turns her attention, but there's no guarantee that the vote will go the way you want it to. If you're against even the possibility of investigating the Ancestor Gods or Ranald further, go Faith or Prudence.
If your main priority is continuing the research, there's no benefit to telling Ranald. Either He's against it and bad things happen, or the consequences for what happens if it gets found out just got a whole lot worse for everybody because now Ranald is implicated.
The case for why Ranald might have noticed went unspoken because it's obvious, she's mucking around with His Coin and His energies and it's not impossible that that might have drawn His attention. The case for why He might not have is less readily apparent.
This definition can be used to put the word 'identity' next to the word 'theft' here, but it absolutely does not match what is normally meant by the phrase 'identity theft'.
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She is also the goddess of scribes who are against printing...
Just don't expect her to be aligned with our interests.
I really, reallly want to study the gods with Truth. That's hella cool. The risk does make me somewhat nervous, but I can deal.
But I think Ranald is a good guy, and not telling him would be a betrayal, and it's a line I don't want Mathilde to cross. (I'm sure there've been a bunch of posts commenting on the Divided Loyalties here, but I haven't seen them cause I don't have the time to read the thread right now, so I'll pretend this is a Totally Original Thought).
What is an actually (maybe) Totally Original Thought is that this choice kind of mirrors the when we decided how to deal with power left from Morks Possession. Faith is obviously the Ranald option, which we chose last time. Truth I would compare to the Magister option (it's got the defiant "Screw you, overly large amounts of dangerous energy is my daily business, I will take this head on and disperse the energy" attitude). Ignorance seems like the Human option (which was basically 'run and hide').
Leaving that aside, I'm currently undecided, but leaning towards Faith.
But I think Ranald is a good guy, and not telling him would be a betrayal, and it's a line I don't want Mathilde to cross. (I'm sure there've been a bunch of posts commenting on the Divided Loyalties here, but I haven't seen them cause I don't have the time to read the thread right now, so I'll pretend this is a Totally Original Thought).
What is an actually (maybe) Totally Original Thought is that this choice kind of mirrors the when we decided how to deal with power left from Morks Possession. Faith is obviously the Ranald option, which we chose last time. Truth I would compare to the Magister option (it's got the defiant "Screw you, overly large amounts of dangerous energy is my daily business, I will take this head on and disperse the energy" attitude). Ignorance seems like the Human option (which was basically 'run and hide').
Leaving that aside, I'm currently undecided, but leaning towards Faith.
Copyright infringement and identity theft are totally different things that have very little in common.
Identity theft involves pretending to be someone else. It's an act of deception. Copywrite infringement involves creating a copy of information that someone doesn't want you to. Ranald is claiming copyright on his image, but copying his image still isn't identity theft as it's not being used and is probably impossible to use to pretend to be him.
... Even if it really is like that, then... I kinda want to know what that act of piety and sacrifice results in.
It's a mystery box, yeah, but I want to know what's in that mystery box.
Though I'm not sure that it's... hrm. I dunno if it's necessarily exactly what you outlined here, the mentality here, but. Even if it was, I think I'd be okay for going for that.
Personally, I was treating the "Sacrifice to Ranald" option as the "I want to sacrifice this to Ranald and see what happens."
Well, the way I look at it, it's like this; the Gods provide for mankind, and mankind provides for the Gods.
Think of the relationship between a man and... hmm. Either his local community, or maybe the state or federal government as a whole, or just his local pastor or local sheriff.
If you gained the ability to forge the signature of the federal government or your local priest or military chaplain, and thus gained the potential ability to invoke actions and do things that previously only your Governor or the Pope could do... is that a thing that is ethically free?
Are you in the clear because you didn't steal gold from Fort Knox or the Vatican, didn't rob the government, and instead merely usurped the ability of the Chaplain or Mayor to do Chaplain-y or Mayor-y things?
Even if you are not stealing from the sheriffs wallet or the donation box at church, if you are intentionally putting yourself into a place where you could take over the cultural and emotional and religious role that the local church leads... is that still okay?
I think that is the way to look at the sort of fire we are potentially playing with here, and the meaning of the "identity theft, theft of fingerprint" metaphor people are using.
And I'm betting that people will probably make the obvious quip of "So we're in place to be Martin Luther? Well then sign me up for that!"
But that's ignoring the fact that in order to assume that, you have to assume that the Gods of Warhammer were being equally dickish and worthy of being opposed or undermined.
It is making the assumption that "Yeah the situation deserves a Martin Luther." Except that's not the case. People want the knowledge because they want the knowledge. And because they think "Well we can do a lot of potential good for it, so that's good, right?" (Alongside some other arguments. Such as "Well, Ranald didn't stop us, so it should be fine" and etc. There's more in there.) I don't think anybody is arguing "The gods are unworthy and should have a thesis nailed to the doors of all their churches." (Except Omegahugger. I can see him cheerfully going "Now is the time!" But he'd be the only one who I could see as being genuine about that. About being able to be genuine about saying "I'm all up for being Martin Luther to Ranald". Everybody else would just be using that as a quip. A quip that does not actually counter the overall thrust of the argument I have been making; namely that this is a big thing we are thinking of doing, and that it has connotations and problems and possibly disrespectfulness and etc. That doing a huge upheaval of faith and religion is not something that is an ethics-neutral action.) (There might be some gods that we might be willing to go Martin Luther or Nagash on, of course. But I'm not sure if I want to hold the nuclear grenade in our hands the entire time.)
Boney's earlier posts about the matter. Particularly the bolded part.
In one hand, Boney has described the matter as "copyright infringement", rather than identity theft.
In the other, there is the comment about the likely consequences of gods finding out about this development, which is what brought Prometheus analogies into the conversation.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Aaaah.
Mathilde the Theoantagonist.
…
Could we perhaps not? If even one person ( or god ) notices what we are doing, Mathilde is quite probably going to become a smear across the pavement in a short amount of time.
People who will be interested in the result and support Mathilde:
1. Cython the Ice Dragon.
2. Maybe some elves.
3. Maybe some dwarves.
4. Maybe some Chaos Cultists.
People who will try to kill her the moment they realize what she's trying to do:
1. Almost every priesthood of every proscribed ( and some not ) god in the Empire.
2. Colleges of Magic for destabilizing the Empire by her actions and presenting an almost existential threat to it.
3. People on the streets.
Also… I'm not convinced Ranald is not, in fact seeing this. Shame on you, Mathilde, that's insufficient paranoia for a Grey Wizard.
She's been thinking about it for almost half a year. It would require incredible luck on our part ( hur hur) for Ranald not to glance in her direction during all this time and notice her preparation. Also, there seems to be a trick some entities know to hide from Magesight and more mundane senses. Skaven assassins from Eshin clan could do it. Some Daemons can hide their presence from freaking priests. I think that a God of Guile with an Aspect of a Night Prowler could conceal his presence if he felt like it.
Why would he do it? To see what Mathilde would do, obviously. He could have stopped the previous experiment not strictly because he was opposed to it, but because Mathilde could actually succeed and kill herself through overexposure to divine energy. Here we don't face the risk of immediate death until we try to steal the image of divinity from our first deity of choice, and whatever else, it will probably be entertaining, and that's like half the reason Ranald is following Mathilde around.
… I could actually see him helping for shits and giggles.
Probably not, though.
Mathilde the Theoantagonist.
…
Could we perhaps not? If even one person ( or god ) notices what we are doing, Mathilde is quite probably going to become a smear across the pavement in a short amount of time.
People who will be interested in the result and support Mathilde:
1. Cython the Ice Dragon.
2. Maybe some elves.
3. Maybe some dwarves.
4. Maybe some Chaos Cultists.
People who will try to kill her the moment they realize what she's trying to do:
1. Almost every priesthood of every proscribed ( and some not ) god in the Empire.
2. Colleges of Magic for destabilizing the Empire by her actions and presenting an almost existential threat to it.
3. People on the streets.
Also… I'm not convinced Ranald is not, in fact seeing this. Shame on you, Mathilde, that's insufficient paranoia for a Grey Wizard.
She's been thinking about it for almost half a year. It would require incredible luck on our part ( hur hur) for Ranald not to glance in her direction during all this time and notice her preparation. Also, there seems to be a trick some entities know to hide from Magesight and more mundane senses. Skaven assassins from Eshin clan could do it. Some Daemons can hide their presence from freaking priests. I think that a God of Guile with an Aspect of a Night Prowler could conceal his presence if he felt like it.
Why would he do it? To see what Mathilde would do, obviously. He could have stopped the previous experiment not strictly because he was opposed to it, but because Mathilde could actually succeed and kill herself through overexposure to divine energy. Here we don't face the risk of immediate death until we try to steal the image of divinity from our first deity of choice, and whatever else, it will probably be entertaining, and that's like half the reason Ranald is following Mathilde around.
… I could actually see him helping for shits and giggles.
Probably not, though.
Burned_Cookie
Very tired girl.
- Location
- Plato´s cave.
- Pronouns
- She/Her/It/Its
I'd like to remind everyone that we got a letter from Ranald telling us not to look into it.
His stance on this is pretty clear.
His stance on this is pretty clear.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Dangit, yeah, that's fair. Sorry, I misremembered the quote and reached a lot for that comparison. I thought that a god's imprint could be used for forgery and, well, identity theft, but yeah it's probably a lot more complex than just having one unliving copy of a god's facet.