Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I'm pretty certain Ranald wouldn't be be cross with us for not licking dynamite.

This option is insanely dangerous. We already have the book, we don't need another secret that bad.

Cross is the wrong word. Disappointed that she's not going to try the most amazing caper since He pulled one over on Shallya perhaps.

I'd say the truly Ranaldite act here is to try to pull it off. The Gambler and the Night Prowler certainly agree, and given how she may go about it, the Deceiver probably would as well. Depending on your view of the role of the Gods, a revolutionary discovery like this could well ping the Protector as well, if his portfolio includes intellectual revolutions against the established order.

The book isn't actually a problem. No one is going to get into K8Ps vaults to find it.
 
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And the wheel keeps turning. I knew the word "betrayal" was going to cause problems. Now both sides can throw it out!

Yeah, I'mma gonna drop my vote and run for the hills when it opens. This is going to get old real fast.
 
I'm pretty certain Ranald wouldn't be be cross with us for not licking dynamite.

This option is insanely dangerous. We already have the book, we don't need another secret that bad.

I mean yes the book is dangerous, but not really? A dangerous risk that has effectively no chance of ever being found out about isn't really a risk. There's definitely much more risk with the Truth option than the Liber Mortis but only because the Liber Mortis functionally is risk free.
 
Scriptisisi, the Goddess of Scribes, and Clio, Delver into the past and God/dess of History (Boney also said they were a god of scribes but I don't know where that's from, they're usually a History god).

Clio the Scrivener, page 170 of 2e's Tome of Salvation. It admittedly reads a lot to me like someone misread their notes and mixed up which God they made scribes and which they made history earlier in the book, but if you take it as read it could be the Cult of Clio trying to muscle in on Scrip's conceptual turf.
 
Ranald always did intervene in the experiments that could end dangerously for Mathilde, personally. Remember the cats that scratched her whenever the shit she was going to do was about to go wrong?

Soooooooooooo. I'm kinda 90 percent sure now Ranald is in fact standing behind our back and waiting to see what we're going to do.
 
Just for clarification I was of the understanding that we were sacrificing the crystallised divine essence (which seems like a pretty good offering) not the process/knowledge involved in its creation. Is that a good understanding of the option?

By sacrificing Ranaldian energy that Ranald did not create you would be revealing to Him that you are able to create and trap that energy, and by doing so inviting Him to pass judgement on it. It's not impossible that He'd give Mathilde a high five and tell her to go nuts, but it's definitely not something you should be counting on.
 
Ranald always did intervene in the experiments that could end dangerously for Mathilde, personally. Remember the cats that scratched her whenever the shit she was going to do was about to go wrong?

Soooooooooooo. I'm kinda 90 percent sure now Ranald is in fact standing behind our back and waiting to see what we're going to do.

I'm pretty sure Ranald is stand ing back to back with Mathilde, whistling innocently so as to both have deniability and obscure what she is doing. ;)
 
The Coin note seemed to be a warning against investigating Ranald's specific mechanics.

The AV experiment seems to involve the general nature of the divine - Ranald might have less personal problems but still be forced to say no if he has to look at it.

I'm pretty certain Ranald wouldn't be be cross with us for not licking dynamite.

This option is insanely dangerous. We already have the book, we don't need another secret that bad.

We have one big secret. Just one - which we haven't used at all.

Maybe Queekish could count as half a secret.

Not say that this necessarily needs to be the next secret but Mathilde definitely should have more forbidden knowledge.
 
The idea that Ranald does know and is looking the other way does make me waver a bit.

Part of the issue is that trying to pull this off in any of the ways Mathilde was thinking about seems suicidal. If I could be sure we would stick to stuff like using AV on the shrine we found or trying to get the signature of weak gods like those local sylvanian ones I'd be ok with it but if I vote for truth it opens up the door for all kinds of suicidally risky stuff I'm am not ok with trying unless we have the explicit backing of a major god to prevent us getting turned into a greasy smear.
 
This is very interesting…

Is Ranald deliberately looking the other way? Ranald may want Mathilde to go ahead with this but also want plausible deniability that he didn't know she was doing this in case she gets caught!
Unlikely. Ranald looking the other way this time is all well and good, sure. But by the very nature of our relationship with him, the next time he does look in on us he cannot fail to notice the crystal in our possession. There goes the plausible deniability.

This equally means that we have absolutely no way to keep this a secret from him. If we fingerprint other gods, even if they don't notice at the time, if they ever happen to glance at us, they'll find out.
 
The case for why Ranald might have went unspoken because it's obvious, she's mucking around with His Coin and His energies and it's not impossible that that might have drawn His attention. The case for why He might not have is less readily apparent.
Alright, you got me. I'm back to brainwave and talk about why Truth might actually be the correct option. Incidentally, I've also run out of tinfoil, and will have to get more in the morning. The gist of the argument is this.

Ranald wants us to research this without telling him.

First off, let's talk about Nagash. It sucked. None of the Ancestor Gods liked the guy, who was a real asshole, and honestly was the only realistic conclusion of Theurgy research. As such, since nobody is particularly interested in Nagash 2: Nehekharan boogaloo, there's probably an agreement between all the Ancestor Gods that Theurgy is forbidden, and none of their cults are allowed to practice it, and anyone who DOES practice it gets a jolly old slap.

Second, Ranald is a Tricky Dick. Of all the Ancestor Gods, he's probably the one who liked this agreement the least. While, yes, mortals becoming abomination-godlings in a bid for immortality and divinity is a bad thing, Ranald's entire schtick is 'Knock the Unworthy Off Their Pedestal.' He's a God of freedom, rebellion, and sticking it to 'The Man.' A stricture that prevents mortals from ever challenging the Gods on their home turf, while on paper good for everyone, would go against what Ranald stands for.

Thus, Ranald Himself probably does not disapprove of the 'Truth' option, and is probably quietly hoping we succeed. HOWEVER, if for any reason He finds out what we're doing, he will be Politically Obligated to make an example of us. Essentially, telling him now results in us getting a slap on the wrist, as we've pretty much stumbled onto the Crystal Snapshot thing as opposed to deliberately researched Theurgy. But if we continue, he will have to, quite probably, smite us just like any of the other Gods would...if he found out.

We aren't officially a part of his cult. We have his blessing and his ear when we need it, and probably more attention than some of his actual priests, but we're also quite deniable. It's entirely possible for him to disavow any knowledge of what we're doing, and claim he never knew what we were up to. All he has to do is not look at us when he knows we're doing Theurgy stuff.

Truth doesn't have to be the 'Betray Ranald' option. It can just as easily be the 'Black Ops Research of the Divine for Ranald' option. We'd still absolutely get smited if we were ever caught, and Ranald would not be able to defend or help us on this (WHICH MEANS NO COIN FFS), but this could be a 'I am going to deliberately not tell you no even though I know exactly what you're doing' kinda thing.

Faith, by this logic, would allow us to back out of the whole 'Theurgy get the Hammer Slap' thing (assuming that is a thing) without actually forcing him into an unpleasant corner (he'd only have to tell us no and maybe give us a headpat for due diligence), and Prudence...well, probably is just Prudence. Burn the notes, don't let anything else happen. Might actually anger Ranald, since at least with Faith all our notes about AV can be taken by another one of his priests and used to complete the scheme elsewhere.


Anyways, still gonna pick Faith, but there is an argument to be made that Truth is what Ranald really wants but can't actually ask for.
 
Mmmrgh. I keep seesawing, and I just remembered this:
Transcendent Ranald: Your relationship with Ranald is not one of temples and priests. He is your oldest and most annoying friend.
Maybe it's just me, but a ritual sacrifice just seems odd-
By sacrificing Ranaldian energy that Ranald did not create you would be revealing to Him that you are able to create and trap that energy, and by doing so inviting Him to pass judgement on it. It's not impossible that He'd give Mathilde a high five and tell her to go nuts, but it's definitely not something you should be counting on.
We'll never mind then. Not that it helps. :V
 
Part of the issue is that trying to pull this off in any of the ways Mathilde was thinking about seems suicidal. If I could be sure we would stick to stuff like using AV on the shrine we found or trying to get the signature of weak gods like those local sylvanian ones I'd be ok with it but if I vote for truth it opens up the door for all kinds of suicidally risky stuff I'm am not ok with trying unless we have the explicit backing of a major god to prevent us getting turned into a greasy smear.
Mind that if any gods find out, then any gods they're aligned with are gonna find out pretty soon too that this one lass is trying to unravel the secrets of divinity. Getting the fingerprints of specific gods isn't so much the problem as it is the overarching goal, I think. So any gods finding out rapidly spreads to become all of the gods worrying about Mathilde.
Unlikely. Ranald looking the other way this time is all well and good, sure. But by the very nature of our relationship with him, the next time he does look in on us he cannot fail to notice the crystal in our possession. There goes the plausible deniability.

This equally means that we have absolutely no way to keep this a secret from him. If we fingerprint other gods, even if they don't notice at the time, if they ever happen to glance at us, they'll find out.
That said, we have Dorf support, and we don't need to carry the crystal around all the time, even assuming gods can 'see' that closely. We could theoretically make a good vault or containment box for 'em.
 
Personally, I am all for burning all this shit and destroying all the evidence. But could be convinced to go Faith instead, dunno for now, kinda sleepy.
 
Unlikely. Ranald looking the other way this time is all well and good, sure. But by the very nature of our relationship with him, the next time he does look in on us he cannot fail to notice the crystal in our possession. There goes the plausible deniability.

This equally means that we have absolutely no way to keep this a secret from him. If we fingerprint other gods, even if they don't notice at the time, if they ever happen to glance at us, they'll find out.

The Gods are not omniscient. If they look at Mathilde they see Mathilde, not everything she's ever done and owned. If Mathilde is waving around a fistful of crystals like it's a hand of cards and she's got a royal flush They'd notice, but They aren't going to rifle through her pockets unless they have reason to, nor will They impulsively search, say, a carefully-hidden vault buried deep under the stone of Karag Nar and several layers of magic-dampening material. They can split their attention a lot of different ways, but they've got even more things they have to be paying attention to at any given time - or at least, so goes the mainstream theory of Their nature.
 
I'm fine with theft, but only if we don't steal from Ranald, and he is at least aware we are doing it.
Faith it is.

Faith is the option to end the research. Truth is where we continue it, and we're quite capable of not continuing to investigate Ranald in particular.

I'm very confident that he knows what we're doing. He almost must be deliberately avoiding looking given we started by using the Coin in the experiment, which gets his attention, so he's subsequently chosen to look away at some point in the process when he could instead have told Mathilde to stop.
 
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Mind that if any gods find out, then any gods they're aligned with are gonna find out pretty soon too that this one lass is trying to unravel the secrets of divinity. Getting the fingerprints of specific gods isn't so much the problem as it is the overarching goal, I think. So any gods finding out rapidly spreads to become all of the gods worrying about Mathilde.
I'm kind of doubtful gods can communicate that easily, The widow had to use one of her followers telling Mathilde to tell Ranald something. There seems to be some kind of restriction requiring them to go through mortals. Even assuming a barely there sylvanian swamp god can just go up to a major empire god would that god even listen? Gods are busy aetheric beings who need to split their attention many ways, spending some of it listening to a minor god is likely much lower on the priority list than attending to their followers.
 
So, in all of this I can't help but think of how big of a deal the Wisdom Asp was earlier in the quest. Mathilde would literally have to sandpaper her cutlery to be able to eat with her eyes open, and now the only lasting legacy is the snake juice generated basically ex nihilo.

I would be interested in finding the truth, but that might also mean biting off more than we can chew. Reverse engineering divinity seems like the sort of thing that will put Mathilde even further up in the big leagues, and at some point we'll have to think really hard about whether or not we want this quest to end in a peaceful retirement of gardening and academics for Mathilde and Panoramia.
 
So, getting an insight into the Gods with Truth would be great and that was my knee-jerk reaction, but the more I think about, the more problems it has.

1. We'd be going behind Ranald's back.
- Now he will probably not care about this, even if he knew, after all, he too stole the secrets of divinity from the Gods, but if we ever get caught, you can bet he'll disavow us and claim ignorance.

2. Sanity checks
- At the same time, treating Gods as collectibles, not even considering the hidden deeper uses of such crystals and just wanting a collection for the shines, when paired with the prior caution and methodology of Mathilde, really strikes me as suspicious and concerning. Mathilde's always been a magpie but she's been a cautious magpie, and near single-minded consideration of how she make poke-crystals out of different Gods is very concerning.

3. Detection
-Ranald may not have been watching us then but it's very possible we may be getting watched while we try to acquire the artifacts of other Gods. Especially those of the future-telling variety. It's practically a given we won't be able to do it undetected at least once and if the God gets pissed at that, we're done for. The reason for this brings me to number 4.

4. Chaos. Just....Chaos.
- If anyone finds out about this, we'll get declared rogue so fast. Because the first thing our peers will think about is "what if she or someone who gets their hands on her research does this with an artifact of the Chaos Gods? Worse, what if they've already done so?"
- We also know Gods can have differing names and mannerisms but still probably be one and the same. What if we crystallize an artifact from a God we think is separate but turns out to be one of the Four or Hashut or something?
- If one of the non-Chaos Gods find out about this, and if a single mortal finds out or gets suspicious about us and what we want with some holy artifact we got detected trying to steal, and then sends up a prayer, they'll almost certain know, we're so screwed and not just in the smiting way. Visions to their faithful in power, telling the other Gods, visions to their faithful in power...even if they don't mind it in principle, they'll be very very worried about the potential for abuse and probably about the non-consensual manner we did it in.

5. Sanity + Chaos
#3 and #4 together have me very concerned. The possibility of crystallizing Chaos along with Mathilde's sudden fixation on crystallizing parts of Gods, however "well-akshually-it's-a-copy-of-a-part-and-not-really-the-God" it may be, is terrifying.


Ranald may have stolen the secrets of divinity and I'd like to do the same one day, but not this way. Pirating and bottling up Gods' divinities just to have a collection like Mathilde wants to do, where the bottling is the goal and not simply a method to achieve her goal, is not something I want to vote for.


Faith on the other hand, is us trusting our oldest friend, an apology, and a demonstration of our own trustworthiness at the same time. It is also a step back from the precipice of recklessness, avarice, hubris and self-sabotage. Even if there was a fourth "[ ] Study it further" option without going to the extreme "Bottle the copies of the fingerprints of the Gods" option (a copy of your fingerprint is still your fingerprint), I'd probably vote for Faith over it. Ranald may prohibit us from studying it, or he might not. He may reward us, or he might not. We may in the future make ourselves a God or we might not. But I don't want to do it without or at the cost of Mathilde's oldest friendship. Power and knowledge, whatever the cost, where that power and knowledge is the aim and not the method to achieve your goal? That's Lex Luthor levels of nope. Even ignoring how ripe for Chaos corruption such a stance is, that's not the kind of person, friend or God I want Mathilde to be.

[ ] Faith

Edit: So Boney posted this after I had started typing this out.
Truth will allow the voters to steer where Mathilde turns her attention, but there's no guarantee that the vote will go the way you want it to. If you're against even the possibility of investigating the Ancestor Gods or Ranald further, go Faith or Prudence.
This implies Truth may not be as extreme as I was considering. So now I'm unsure again because it also says Faith would shut down any paths to investigating into the Gods. Fuck :(


Edit 2: Ahh fuck.
If your main priority is continuing the research, there's no benefit to telling Ranald. Either He's against it and bad things happen, or the consequences for what happens if it gets found out just got a whole lot worse for everybody because now Ranald is implicated.
 
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I'm kind of doubtful gods can communicate that easily, The widow had to use one of her followers telling Mathilde to tell Ranald something. There seems to be some kind of restriction requiring them to go through mortals. Even assuming a barely there sylvanian swamp god can just go up to a major empire god would that god even listen? Gods are busy aetheric beings who need to split their attention many ways, spending some of it listening to a minor god is likely much lower on the priority list than attending to their followers.

Oh, about that. My theory is that sharing information on the material plane is just more cost efficient. Like, they could communicate directly in the Aethyric Wastes or some shits, but for that they would need their domains to contact directly, while on the planet they already have a bunch of portals to their divine realms through the souls of their mortal followers.


This sounds distressingly like "For Gods to talk, they need to hold hands, but they are too shy to do that so instead they use the gossip grapevine".
 
By sacrificing Ranaldian energy that Ranald did not create you would be revealing to Him that you are able to create and trap that energy, and by doing so inviting Him to pass judgement on it. It's not impossible that He'd give Mathilde a high five and tell her to go nuts, but it's definitely not something you should be counting on.
So wait, he could be testing us to see if we'll fess up to the truth? i.e. a test of character or faith?
Mmmrgh. I keep seesawing, and I just remembered this:

Maybe it's just me, but a ritual sacrifice just seems odd-
By sacrificing Ranaldian energy that Ranald did not create you would be revealing to Him that you are able to create and trap that energy, and by doing so inviting Him to pass judgement on it. It's not impossible that He'd give Mathilde a high five and tell her to go nuts, but it's definitely not something you should be counting on.
We'll never mind then. Not that it helps. :V
So potentially, he could be looking for plausible deniability -- as Alratan and a few others theorized -- but alternatively...

He could also be using it as a test of faith? "Will you do the right thing by me and tell the truth about what just happened, even if you don't think I'm watching and can smack you for it?"

So, maybe he wants to have plausible deniability. Or maybe he wants to see if we'd be willing to reveal the truth to him even if we think we could have gotten away with it.

Hence the reason why, potentially, he could high-five us and tell us to go nuts; because it's a test of character. ((I mean, I don't think that's what'll happen -- I think something else will happen from choosing Faith -- but that could be a justification for why the Faith could result in a "High five, now do the research" result.))
 
Oh man, this has the potential to be absurdly dangerous. Like, keeping it from Ranald alone would be hard, and he'll probably be really pissed and dissapointed when he finds out. But we're talking about stealing the secrets from all gods here, not just Ranald. Stealing from an old friend hoping he doesn't particulary mind is a jerk move. Stealing from literally all the gods and hoping there's among them never a single one that would find out is just plain lunacy.
 
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