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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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ctulhuslp said:
Won't it?
Seriously, won't keeping this kind of thing a secret from Him impact our mutual trust? I am not saying it will for sure do, but I suspect it very much might.
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Did Ranald lying to the dwarves about Mathildes soul cause her to break off her relation with Ranald? No?

Why would this? Ranald fucked with Mathildes life for a joke, not even a very good one tbh. The idea that Ranald is going to go "Oh no, I'm done with you" over this is kind of a joke given his godly domains and the stories he tells about his own ascension and divinity.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
Won't it?
Seriously, won't keeping this kind of thing a secret from Him impact our mutual trust? I am not saying it will for sure do, but I suspect it very much might.
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We won't be keeping everything from Ranald, Boney just said we'd keep the signatures from him and we don't need any help for that.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Won't it?
Seriously, won't keeping this kind of thing a secret from Him impact our mutual trust? I am not saying it will for sure do, but I suspect it very much might.
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Look, Mathilde is a Grey Lady Magister who, among other things, has convinced herself that reading the Liber Mortis is in fact A-OK according to the Articles and is hiding the fact that her knowledge of Dhar and Necromancy should get her burned at the stake from everyone she knows at all times.

She has done this for years without showing any notable stress as a result.

Ulgu's a hell of a drug, mate, and Mathilde's mind has been stewed in the stuff for decades. I'm not worried about adding one more secret to the pile, especially when Mathilde is half convinced (almost exactly, based on voting numbers) that Ranald's purposely looking away to maintain plausible deniability on the secret in question.
 
So about that god identification spell, I just realized how we could use the black boxing of human arcane magic to spread the knowledge of god-prints:

We make a spell that can identify Vymar, colors his priests, say it colors all his priests blue, now no one knows how we did it, say we watched a lot of partying elves. It does not matter, now everyone who can cast that spell can tell if a priest to claims to be of Vymar is of the same sort as the party elves (who we swear are not chaos worshipers and the queen of the wood elves says so). Now even without having to poke Chaos for signatures to build into the spell if someone claims to be a spellcasting priest of Vymar and does not have the nice blue glow... that one is probably a Slaaneshi and you can shoot him.

Ideally we would build something more complex than just a glow so that the spell cannot be spoofed by the Dark God replicating the right shade of blue when there is a watching magister... but that is a trade off of security for ease of use to be decided another day.
 
OK, let's just ask @Boney.
Does matilda know if her experience with Gods in direct contact with her (her avatar trait) and her ability to precisely sense magical energy (windsage trait) are necessary to feel the essence of a God that is trapped in the crystal as used by the experiment.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Did Ranald lying to the dwarves about Mathildes soul cause her to break off her relation with Ranald? No?

Why would this? Ranald fucked with Mathildes life for a joke, not even a very good one tbh.
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Um. What? For Ranald to lie to the dwarves, they need to contact Him in order for him to have said something. And I very much doubt they did. Taking the Conclave at face value is a dubious endeavor, anyways, since there's no way to verify it.
 
ReImagined said:
What do you mean by 'used her knowledge in cooperation with Ranald,' in the context of the Boney quote that @picklepikkl mentioned? If there are zero benefits to telling Ranald, what sort of cooperation are you thinking of?
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Mathilde is a wizard who approaches the world with a wizard's perspective, she is also a Ranaldite. She has used both skill sets and world views side by side from the beginning. Deepening her commitment to wizardlliness won't negate her faith in Ranald.

We need Ranald involved for the experiments with making it easier for him to perform miracles that some other people proposed, but we don't need his help to collect divine signatures, and asking could put him in an awkward position.
 
DragonParadox said:
Sigmar is the most useless god to use this on, jokes about Italian plummets aside-he does not seem to have other faces.
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Ahh, but he is very interesting for another reason:

Deathbybunnies said:
More seriously, both Sigmar and Ranald hace something very interesting in common: they are purported to have originally been mortal, and to have ascended to Divinity. I'd be very interested to see what similarities they might have.
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This. We can be fairly sure Sigmar was originally human, and this means that examining him gives us a way to see how a human changes when they become a god. Then we look at Ranald and see if he has those traits, or was a god all along. Develop a taxonomy of "original" and "ascended" gods, by trying it on Mermidia and Rhya and Taal.

kingreaper said:
Only if Ranald has previously encountered AV in the materium which had then been exposed to a divine relic of his.

This may well be literally the first time this has happened.
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It's due to this that I am EXTREMELY RELUCTANT to ever share AV with any human now: it is a novel way for a God's intervention to be counterfeited. And AV makes it possible, almost inevitable if others follow the same thoughts we did.

Tzeetch is going to have a field day with this, so our best hope of keeping it out of his cult is to keep it in as few human hands as possible. Dwarves? Cool. Elves... Idk. Elves can worship chaos gods.

And this is regardless of our choice now- we learned of this possibility, so it's our responsibility to keep it compartmentalized so it does no harm.
 
Glau said:
It's due to this that I am EXTREMELY RELUCTANT to ever share AV with any human now: it is a novel way for a God's intervention to be counterfeited. And AV makes it possible, almost inevitable if others follow the same thoughts we did.

Tzeetch is going to have a field day with this, so our best hope of keeping it out of his cult is to keep it in as few human hands as possible. Dwarves? Cool. Elves... Idk. Elves can worship chaos gods.

And this is regardless of our choice now- we learned of this possibility, so it's our responsibility to keep it compartmentalized so it does no harm.
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I think you are severely underestimating the ability of the God of Magic to do magic stuff, including but not limited to gutting warp rats and spraying their guts into the real world and then exposing those guts to some other divine magic and then bottling the result. Those are neither many steps nor complex ones.
 
The way I think about it is, we effectively have Ranald's nudes.

Now, if i discovered that a friend of many had my nudes, i would be freaked out at first, but then she shows me that it was for actual research, and she has notes and everything and is making real progress with others people's nudes and it could be of real help to me and the world, and she only kept mine because she wanted something safe and familiar to get started.

I think I would forgive that, but maybe I'm just weird.
 
das_slash said:
The way I think about it is, we effectively have Ranald's nudes.

Now, if i discovered that a friend of many had my nudes, i would be freaked out at first, but then she shows me that it was for actual research, and she has notes and everything and is making real progress with others people's nudes and it could be of real help to me and the world, and she only kept mine because she wanted something safe and familiar to get started.

I think I would forgive that, but maybe I'm just weird.
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It be really weird. But if it helps cure cancer I'd be OK with it.
 
picklepikkl said:
In any event, I have already provided a QM quote that if we go Truth, we will not be pursuing this avenue of research in cooperation with Ranald, but in secrecy from him, so I don't really see how this matters.
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The BoneyM quote is about asking Ranald for help with our divine signature collection, that wasn't what I was talking about - other people have theorized experiments that we could attempt with his cooperation that he seems more likely to cooperate with.

Your paraphrased version of my post drew a causal link that was not present in the actual quote, you just grabbed two sentence fragments and smushed them together to create a sentence that I disagree with.

Edit: I will replace the dash with a full stop in the original for the sake of extra clarity. After a re-read, it seems fine to me without any edits.
 
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Tobtorp said:
OK, let's just ask @Boney.
Does matilda know if her experience with Gods in direct contact with her (her avatar trait) and her ability to precisely sense magical energy (windsage trait) are necessary to feel the essence of a God that is trapped in the crystal as used by the experiment.
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I am 99.99% sure this falls under "Mathilde has no way to predict something that's never happened before" category.

das_slash said:
The way I think about it is, we effectively have Ranald's nudes.

Now, if i discovered that a friend of many had my nudes, i would be freaked out at first, but then she shows me that it was for actual research, and she has notes and everything and is making real progress with others people's nudes and it could be of real help to me and the world, and she only kept mine because she wanted something safe and familiar to get started.

I think I would forgive that, but maybe I'm just weird.
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Are you trying to convince people? I'm voting Truth right now and this caused me a visceral NOPE. I also legit do not regard fingerprints on the same levels as nudes
 
das_slash said:
The way I think about it is, we effectively have Ranald's nudes.

Now, if i discovered that a friend of many had my nudes, i would be freaked out at first, but then she shows me that it was for actual research, and she has notes and everything and is making real progress with others people's nudes and it could be of real help to me and the world, and she only kept mine because she wanted something safe and familiar to get started.

I think I would forgive that, but maybe I'm just weird.
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It's much more like an anatomical diagram of your arm. Pretty odd, but lacking all of the cultural baggage "nudes" implies.
 
DragonParadox said:
Have you met Empress Hedi? :V
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Yes, and I think she is a better empress than 99% of the candidates. I can get the argument that it puts us in a difficult position for what Ranald deemed "the greater good", but no need to besmirch her, she doing fine.

DragonParadox said:
He forced us to lie to the Emperor and our own boss the patriarch by omission because if either of them knew what Hedi was they would have killed her.
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Arguable. Emperor may love her regardless. Patriarch may not care as long as she is not hostile to the Empire. What you say is possible, which is why we are keeping it a secret, but not a given.

DragonParadox said:
No we did not, calling for help in a life ad death situation is not the same at all. Ranald would not have died if it Hedi were not empress.
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We didn't have to involve ourselves in either life or death situation. We did that to help people and/or to gain rep. Raland quite possibly has exactly the same motives: helping people while getting rep on the side.
 
storryeater said:
We didn't have to involve ourselves in either life or death situation. We did that to help people and/or to gain rep. Raland quite possibly has exactly the same motives: helping people while getting rep on the side.
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Sure it is possible that all his motives are pure as driven snow and the power grab was thus entirely justified, but it still made our job harder without our consent or even a heads up. At the very least that is proof that getting more into his orbit will present us with more moments like that, where we have to put our faith in Ranald above our oaths to the colleges (with reasoning or rationalization of course).
 
DragonParadox said:
Sure it is possible that all his motives are pure as driven snow and the power grab was thus entirely justified, but it still made our job harder without our consent or even a heads up. At the very least that is proof that getting more into his orbit will present us with more moments like that, where we have to put our faith in Ranald above our oaths to the colleges (with reasoning or rationalization of course).
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I didn't contest this point, because you are right. I only took umbrage with specific details because that point is not wrong.

But because I am strongly pro Ranald, I want to get all the details right.
 
storryeater said:
Yes, and I think she is a better empress than 99% of the candidates. I can get the argument that it puts us in a difficult position for what Ranald deemed "the greater good", but no need to besmirch her, she doing fine.



Arguable. Emperor may love her regardless. Patriarch may not care as long as she is not hostile to the Empire. What you say is possible, which is why we are keeping it a secret, but not a given.



We didn't have to involve ourselves in either life or death situation. We did that to help people and/or to gain rep. Raland quite possibly has exactly the same motives: helping people while getting rep on the side.
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I mean Ranald could have informed us... I'm not even saying he should have shared his plans with us so we might judge them, but just informing us. I really don't think that's too much to ask from a friend.
 
Saidoro said:
Ah yes, the divine feet pics.

(Seriously though, fingerprints are a much better analogy than nudes, and even that's arguably a bit much due to its ties to modern surveillance culture and technology. A photo of someone's face is where it's at in my mind.)
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The analogies chosen by Boney have been copyright infringement and unauthorized duplication of intellectual property, so fingerprints/nudes/anatomical diagrams may be incorrect analogies to begin with, even if identity apparently plays into things.

At the same time, I've seen some comments that suggest that the Truth research path is not such a big deal, which doesn't seem quite correct when Bonney also mentioned the torment of Prometheus as a good example of how gods would react to this manner of unauthorized duplication of their intellectual property.
 
Murazor said:
The analogies chosen by Boney have been copyright infringement and unauthorized duplication of intellectual property, so fingerprints/nudes/anatomical diagrams may be incorrect analogies to begin with, even if identity apparently plays into things.

At the same time, I've seen some comments that suggest that the Truth research path is not such a big deal, which doesn't seem quite correct when Bonney also mentioned the torment of Prometheus as a good example of how gods would react to this manner of unauthorized duplication of their intellectual property.
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On the other hand it has been noted that we do not really know how much the gods know about this thing, all we know is that they have not chosen to make the info public so they will be some kind of upset. If the cults knew they would start with complaints and pressure not holy war, at least in Mathilde's estimation.
 
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