Johan... isn't the best example. He was a little crazy to start with, or he wouldn't have done all that gilding in the first place.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Of all the gilding options, only gilding your heart actually seems to move your soul closer to the wind - everything else is just like carrying a magic item.
And in all those cases we didn't reveal the existence of the true source at all. We didn't hand in the Liber Mortis and then proclaim that we had this information from other, unrelated, sources.
Revealing that we have a substance that can fingerprint gods while using the information we get from fingerprinting gods, but claiming that's not our information source, is a lot riskier.
Hence why I think we'll need to keep AV secret if we want to use divine fingerprinting without revealing that we're using divine fingerprinting.
Sure as the GM said, if we get found out the cults will put pressure on us to stop, and probably not work with us anymore, at least most of them. There are consequences for a lot of things. For instance if those same cults found out we read the Liber Mortis they would demand we be burned at the stake... and the Colleges would likely agree.
So let's do now what we did then and not be found out, carefully laundering the information.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
We could just never say anything about its interaction with divine winds when we find and share a use for AV with arcane magic?
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think this is a a pretty reasonable point. I've always gotten the impression that Mathilde tends to be an honest sort of liar with her allies: she'll keep secrets, she'll tell lies when she thinks its necessary, but she'll generally try not to work against what she perceives are their interests, and strive to genuinely be on their side.
I think you're correct there, actually. We probably could do the cult identifying thing using the divine fingerprints, without actually telling anyone that we have any such capability. We can just make up some reason we were suspicious and decided to investigate.
[X] Truth
[X] Faith
Going to vote for both for now while I'm reevaluating my vote. I've been finding many arguments in favor of Truth increasingly lackluster, with too many people seemingly convinced they're going to have their cake and eat it too.
[X] Faith
Because while I didn't really dislike the Truth option, what I have read of the arguments here have really soured me on it.
Because while I didn't really dislike the Truth option, what I have read of the arguments here have really soured me on it.
I've to say, I'm pretty tired of all the faith voters advocating for how bad and terrible Truth is over and over and over without making any kind of point in favor of Faith. Like really, I genuinely feel they should be voting for Prudence with the arguments they are making, what is going to happen if suddenly Ranald goes "cool for me, don't involve me in your research but you're free to continue".
Another thought for truth:
There is a spell for a priest avatar on the books and GM approved, but only for the likes of Ranald, with Truth we could use it for any priest we had a crystal of.
There is a spell for a priest avatar on the books and GM approved, but only for the likes of Ranald, with Truth we could use it for any priest we had a crystal of.
- Location
- on the way to the fire.
- Pronouns
- He
That is a huge leap from what we are likely to get from the research, maybe an end goal and even then it's the exact opposite of not drawing attention.
Edit: it's not even declaring war on the god's secrecy, it's bona fide declaring you can do better then them and their cults.
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
I keep explaining how faith could empower Ranald to more easily do miracles where the ranaldised AV is. The only response so far has been that it's only a possibility not certain.
The issue is that truth has more certainty both good and bad.
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I was taking that as a given. The issue is this: let's say we start fingerprinting gods and using that knowledge for the express use we know we have for it, distinguishing gods of uncertain identity. Let's say we then, later, find out an awesome application of AV for Teclisean magic, be that enchanting or refueling winds on a battlefield or some cool power stone. We are then in a bind, because if we publish our results and share AV so that other people can benefit from that awesome application, someone will eventually repeat our experiment and discover how it is we've been discerning gods of uncertain identity, and then we're in an awkward position.
The ways around this are either "fingerprint gods and then find something else to do with the fingerprints, don't bother with the distinguishing gods thing," which I dislike because it's sitting on useful knowledge and not sharing it, or "don't share AV with the Colleges," which I dislike because it's sitting on useful resources and not sharing it.
As I said earlier, it's really hard to argue in favor of a mystery box. What am I supposed to say? "The cool things I can imagine being inside that box are really cool"? We don't know, and like I said earlier I don't think we can know, because I expect that if Faith wins, Ranald's reaction will be a die roll.
Basically the only things I can say with certainty are that 1) Mathilde's relationship with Ranald is one of my favorite things about the quest and I want to lean into that, not away from it 2) I trust Boney's ability as a writer to make compelling plots and not hand us a damp squib.
Yes and? We are talking forbidden cults here, you know the people we kill on sight.
- Location
- Earth
No. That spell would work on all Priests. Both forbidden and not-forbidden.
- Location
- on the way to the fire.
- Pronouns
- He
You mean the gods we are hoping won't notice or at least not be able to act against us, and proposing we channel even more of their energy in an active manner instead of passively observing.
Might be possible, will be dangerous and we don't really know yet, it's just not in the same wheelhouse as what we seen possible in this update.
Resonant
Procrastinator Supreme
I also think Truth arguments undervalue the benefit of a closer relationship with Ranald, while also invalidating WEB-MAT's goal of cooperation between Priests and Wizards by sneaking around behind their backs.
Let's start with the core motivation: Mathilde wants to improve the world. Working to identify Gods and clarifying their mysterious background would help reduce collateral damage between Order factions. However, the underlying premise for doing that requires subterfuge and disrespect of boundaries.
Truth fundamentally alters AV's purpose and impact by playing with such high risks, and even if Mathilde successfully collects fingerprints she must launder her findings because they must stay classified.
While it's nothing new for Mathilde as a Grey Wizard to keep secrets and engage in rule-breaking, such as with the Liber Mortis, it feels unnecessary and wasteful to do that with AV's incredible potential. It means we can't fully publish and share the wonders of AV and must instead hoard that knowledge for safety. Maintaining a good relationship with Gods & Cults in general just makes life easier for everyone involved.
Finally, I'd like to urge people to reconsider the value of a closer relationship with Ranald, our closest friend. The mystery box requires a leap of Faith, but in return it can also hold greater potential. Always remember:
Let's start with the core motivation: Mathilde wants to improve the world. Working to identify Gods and clarifying their mysterious background would help reduce collateral damage between Order factions. However, the underlying premise for doing that requires subterfuge and disrespect of boundaries.
Truth fundamentally alters AV's purpose and impact by playing with such high risks, and even if Mathilde successfully collects fingerprints she must launder her findings because they must stay classified.
While it's nothing new for Mathilde as a Grey Wizard to keep secrets and engage in rule-breaking, such as with the Liber Mortis, it feels unnecessary and wasteful to do that with AV's incredible potential. It means we can't fully publish and share the wonders of AV and must instead hoard that knowledge for safety. Maintaining a good relationship with Gods & Cults in general just makes life easier for everyone involved.
Finally, I'd like to urge people to reconsider the value of a closer relationship with Ranald, our closest friend. The mystery box requires a leap of Faith, but in return it can also hold greater potential. Always remember:
I trust that Ranald has our back, so Faith in Him wouldn't go unrewarded. It might specifically block off one aspect of Divine AV research, but it can open up other mystical paths.
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Romv
A Memory of TREES
The link between AV and Mathilde's Divine knowledge doesn't seem all that clear to me when looking at it from someone's point of view who is not us.
Mathilde found ways to explain away her knowledge of Dhar without mentioning the Liber Mortis, she can find ways to explain away her Divine knowledge too.
One of Mathilde's defining moments was developing a grudge against Sigmar. Another defining moment was choosing to read the Liber Mortis as a Magister a book that no major cult (besides maybe those of Ranald and Verana) and certainly no country would feel comfortable to recommend as reading for upper-mid tier spellcasters.
Right now Lady Magister Mathilde, reclaimer of K8P and saviour Vlag is in the position to launder the Liber Mortis and still get to keep it (even if she might need to do it indirectly via the Belegar's Library). When newly minted Magister Mathilde read the Liber Mortis that was a burning offence - yet our choice was Mathilde trusting herself (and Abel's last words) over the collective wisdom of the Colleges, the Empire and the Cults.
Tl;dr: Truth is extremely risky. It might piss off a lot of cults. It also isn't isn't the first such decision Mathilde made.
No it would work on specific priests as built in, that is why we can only do Ranald now.
[X] Truth
I feel like it'd be like the Anvils of Doom thing. In the sense that if it's possible I expect we'd just give the AV to a priest of Ranald or maybe Heidi and then we wouldn't get to see the results, which is not something I'd be enthused to read (mainly because there would be not much to read).
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Given that we have no intention of ever doing anything of the sort with WEB-MAT, how Mathilde acts outside of it does not affect what risks any priests who sign up for it are taking. It would affect their reasoning from the outside if they knew, but from our privileged position inside Mathilde's head we know that it's not actually relevant.
Insofar as your greater point is not wanting to invade the privacy of Gods who at all times are a thousand times more invasive in their viewings of the people of Mallus, I find myself unsympathetic.
- Location
- PA
So, Where can Faith lead to, if not the smorgasbord of research and thieving adventures that Truth does?
Well.
I don't think we can get enough Divine lore/use of Divine energy to get Mathilde a Divine mark of Ranald, or the powers of his priesthood...But what I CAN see happening, is this counting/building off Mathilde's OTHER divine exploits and adventures to count towards an unofficial Pilgrimage of Fingers. So instead of Mathilde being basically 'someone powerful associated with Ranald', she can actually have a proper RANK within the church of Ranald, with all that entails, like an improvement to her rumour mill via the gossip of faithful Ranaldites. Or potentially, another artifact item like the Coin, if the Coin is not enhanced in it's abilities further somehow.
Or, if Ranald is content/can't alter the Coin, he might be able to bolster Mathilde more directly, perhaps through the traits on her character sheet? She might not get ACTIVE Divine Spells, but she can certainly get a blessing that enhances her abilties.
Well.
I don't think we can get enough Divine lore/use of Divine energy to get Mathilde a Divine mark of Ranald, or the powers of his priesthood...But what I CAN see happening, is this counting/building off Mathilde's OTHER divine exploits and adventures to count towards an unofficial Pilgrimage of Fingers. So instead of Mathilde being basically 'someone powerful associated with Ranald', she can actually have a proper RANK within the church of Ranald, with all that entails, like an improvement to her rumour mill via the gossip of faithful Ranaldites. Or potentially, another artifact item like the Coin, if the Coin is not enhanced in it's abilities further somehow.
Or, if Ranald is content/can't alter the Coin, he might be able to bolster Mathilde more directly, perhaps through the traits on her character sheet? She might not get ACTIVE Divine Spells, but she can certainly get a blessing that enhances her abilties.
[X] Faith