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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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ShyPerson said:
My expanded reasoning for not taking this opportunity is this: what are we hopping to achieve with it? I am not averse to risk taking, we follow the literal god of chance. But in the past our gambles have generally been for clear rewards for the risks. The expedition to retake Vala Azril Ungol was a massive gamble, but I think everyone agrees it was worth it in the end.

Ultimately pursuing this line of research reads to me as taking a massive gamble for a very murky prize, and I don't like to take a big leap without knowing for certain that a worthwhile prize is on the other side.
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Well, we've seemingly stumbled on a concrete method to create physical and permanent 'templates' of divine energy. To borrow a point made previously, one of the biggest questions that has to be constantly asked with divine relics and miracles in Warhammer is 'was this really this god's act and will/sign of favour, or a trick by Chaos? Is the mystical power in this object from divine power, or just some incidental magic that bonded to it?' If these templates for divine energy are made, these questions can be definitively answered. Meaning, no more Chaos artifacts surviving after being seized because of appearing innocuous or even 'holy' to most peoples eyes.
 
Shane_357 said:
Ah yes, three years of... *checks notes* devoting no actual time to the matter. We've taken shit-all in terms of actual fucking actions. This isn't all we have on the table, it's all Boney has handed us. How about actually going off and putting some actions into researching divine theology in any library in the world? Excursions to Nehekahra? Anything other than talking to the dragon and slamming the results of mystery-box roll-gacha jackpots into one another like a child with two dolls? You want gains, put in investment, instead of throwing up your hands and deciding that this is the only way. Seek out options, convince the thread to take them - don't expect me to do it for you, because I have no investment in building a collection of divine genetic samples. What ever happened to this 'this is our only way to know' mentality back at Dum, when I was desperate - and still are - to solve the mystery of Morghur?
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Okay, but now convince the thread to devote its self to pulling on strings we don't have to try and generate these opportunities. It's not going to happen so again we're back to three years real time and this is the first and possibly last time we'll get this chance.

So yes I think it should be treated with in those terms, the same as I did with the situation with Morghur. I was well aware at the time that we might never get an answer to what was going on if we left, but I actually acknowledged that fact instead of pretending that obviously we'll be able to find other avenues with a small amount of elbow grease, because I know that our AP is precious and we're not going to revisit things with out a concrete reason.

The truth option gives us a concrete entry point, nothing else we have does.

Jreengus said:
The shrine we took could well be another way in. Studying that and whether it is an artifact of Manaan, then potentially doing the same with Ranald/Loec if we can get an in with their cult. It's likely to be less of a scientific study and more of a mysticy study but it is an alternative.
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I considered that but it's really mostly just a mystery item research like doing the arm or talisman. AV gives us the chance to do something that's 100% replicable and trivial. That kind avenue seems like it would be difficult to find again.
 
Tobtorp said:
Actually our current research goal is equally murky, why are we researching way stones (was that their name, I have forgotten...)? What benefits do we get out of that?
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We actually have goals for the waystone ranging from protecting and maintaining existing ones to adding supplementary stuctures e.g. Laurelorn trees to the waystone or repairing waystones, undoing their transformation into herdstones all the way to building new waystones. What we don't yet know is which is a dream and which is realistic - the last is almost certainly a dream. But we do have a goal in mind.
With the fingerprint we don't have such a goal especially as some people are very hesitant in whose fingerprint we get, especially wanting to avoid acquring the fingerprints most easy to acquire.
 
Staff Notice - This is overly heated.
Shane_357 said:
If you want to call me a liar you damn well better have an actual example to show instead of a handwaved 'bird in the hand/bush' metaphor.
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You are a liar Shane because we have only an option to research divine and that is it. What you are saying about us not taking other options is the lie you are telling because none of the things you said was ever an option to give us any definitive answers. There has never been a time where such clear option was open and we had not taken it.

I hope this is clear enough.
 
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Tobtorp said:
Actually our current research goal is equally murky, why are we researching way stones (was that their name, I have forgotten...)? What benefits do we get out of that?
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You should note I did not vote for our current project to be our current occupation. It's benefits is I believe to help keep the dark powers out of the world.
 
Ask yourself this, do you think an expedition to Nehekhara won't yield better results if we can actually see how the remaining divine energies of their gods look like? That trying to subvert the works of the Horned Rat won't work better with insight on how he actually works? That becoming a new God of magic won't be easier with knowledge of just what a God Is?

This is a character choice, does Mathilde value knowledge or does she respect the status quo more? If you want knowledge take Truth because there is no future path to knowledge that won't be better for having more tools, if there is even another path.
You have no interest in learning more about the nature of the Divine? choose Faith, because mysticism would bring us closer to the gods, and the gods have made it clear they don't want anyone to know.
 
ShyPerson said:
My expanded reasoning for not taking this opportunity is this: what are we hopping to achieve with it? I am not averse to risk taking, we follow the literal god of chance. But in the past our gambles have generally been for clear rewards for the risks. The expedition to retake
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One specifice one.
The lores of the Waaagh.
One issue is that they are part divine and thus cannot be faked.
You can meet force with force or lay bait.

Draining the Waaagh right out of greenskins requires their shaman to put it in your hands.

Not if you have a legit shard of Waaagh. You don't have much but you can spoof it into literal greenskin bait.
 
ShyPerson said:
My expanded reasoning for not taking this opportunity is this: what are we hopping to achieve with it? I am not averse to risk taking, we follow the literal god of chance. But in the past our gambles have generally been for clear rewards for the risks. The expedition to retake Vala Azril Ungol was a massive gamble, but I think everyone agrees it was worth it in the end.

Ultimately pursuing this line of research reads to me as taking a massive gamble for a very murky prize, and I don't like to take a big leap without knowing for certain that a worthwhile prize is on the other side.
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I want Mathilde to be able to tell at glance who's blessed with which god, especially Chaos Gods. I'd like if Mathilde was able to identify blessed artifacts from artifacts blessed by the Chaos Gods. And I'd love if, eventually, Mathilde was able to teach all of this to other members of the Colleges eventually. I'd also want to use this to get more hints about the Cor-Dum mystery.

Being far less realist, looking at the incredible complex warp things that are the "gods" could help us to know how they're able to just use magic and have no risk of miscasting (so we could try to imitate them and all that).

Now, from immediate benefits this is something we could bring up to Cython to get him to do something for us and I'd like to take a look at Kragg's axe and see if it's cursed or not.
 
If Ranald gets angry at us for studying the Gods and inventing methods to better study them in the future, well, so be it. I doubt that would happen, but if it does, that's a price I'm willing to pay for following an extremely interesting and potentially potent avenue of study. And it's something I'd like to find out about Ranald early, because I don't want to be a friend with someone who would get angry about that.

The status quo in Warhammer is a slow decline, anyway. Game-changers can be good or bad, but at least they're a chance.
 
[X] Truth

I think, ultimately, that this is what I'm going to vote for. I think it provides more options for exciting reading, intricate plots, and general shenanigans.
 
I have to admit that the first time I read the vote choices my immediate thought was "Why are these two exclusive of each other?" and having read the discussion and (some of?) Boney's clarifications… I'm still just as confused, though I sort-of see why Boney would divide it that way considering their modus operandi as a GM, which is to give simple, strongly disparate choices for important decisions where possible.

My main issue is that there's a lot of heavy baggage added to these choices which really needn't be there and strongly affects the voting choices. I don't think these will be guaranteed baggage after the vote, since big choices have rarely been that blunt, but it is certainly treated by voters as such.

The big issues I see are:

  • Faith
It is treated not just as sacrificing the Ranald-print (and therefore Ranald-research) to him, but the whole research in general. Interpreted as such, Mathilde will scrap the whole research she has been working on for years unless Ranald actively approves, unlike the previous deal of Mathilde doing her thing unless he actively disapproves of it.

  • Truth
This is treated as a betrayal of Ranald, actively hiding it behind the back of Mathilde's oldest friend. Obviously, a deal-breaker for anyone who reads it as such, and I believe where a good part of the Faith voters come from.

It also seems to be interpreted as a betrayal of all the order gods which is so severe, that they might actually treat her as a personal enemy on the level of (or even higher than) the Everchosen. Which is to say, they would not just dislike it, they would not just treat her as an enemy, but they might actually all band together and directly tell their followers to gather the armies and hunt her down.


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I think there is too much weight put on the precise choice. I certainly would not want to betray Ranald, and I think most Truth voters do not want that either. I don't want to secretly research Ranald's essence without his knowledge. I would also vote for more research even if Ranald turns out not to be the biggest fan, so long as he doesn't directly vetos it. And lastly, I do not think that this research, even if it somehow becomes known, would be as big a deal as some posters make it out to be. I certainly think it would be a big deal, even to the point of souring Mathilde's relationship with some faiths or some priests trying to get her marked as a black wizard. It's not on the level of any of the actually heretical Chaos worshippers and dhar-using black magicians, though.
 
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DragonParadox said:
It is foundational to what it means to be a wizard. I really do not have the time to do a character distinction for you... but just look at her learning score, look at her library.
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This really isn't a strong agreement Dragon.

Volans and the college being secular doesn't mean Mathy is it should be, and mathy being smart doesn't stop her being religious, lots of thinkers and scientists are religious.

Your whole argument is based on Mathy supporting a viewpoint that she clearly doesn't.
 
[X] Truth

I was leaning this way but honestly fearmongering is the thing I hate most in quest votes.

Nothing will ever push me harder towards a certain side than seeing it.
 
torac said:
It is treated not just as sacrificing the Ranald-print (and therefore Ranald-research) to him, but the whole research in general. Interpreted as such, Mathilde will scrap the whole research she has been working on for years unless Ranald actively approves, unlike the previous deal of Mathilde doing her thing unless he actively disapproves of it.
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Sacrifice is only sacrifice if it is meaningful. Mathilde is taking on a geass/sacred oath to not research divine ever again in this way is the sacrifice she is making because that is what a meningful sacrifice actually is.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
This really isn't a strong agreement Dragon.

Volans and the college being secular doesn't mean Mathy is it should be, and mathy being smart doesn't stop her being religious, lots of thinkers and scientists are religious.

Your whole argument is based on Mathy supporting a viewpoint that she clearly doesn't.
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Mathilde was trained a wizard of the grey order, she was trained in their methods and in their way of seeing the world... you can see that just last update where she was dissecting god stuff. The question before us is are we going to let piety rob us of the results of the study we have already made? the motion that Mahilde's piety eclipses all else does not stand up to the scrutiny of what she just did and how she did it. There is a part of her that wants to vote truth... and that part of her is the wizard seeking secrets.
 
Derpmind said:
But Truth is, well, selfish. Mathilde isn't even intending to share the knowledge she'd gain from divine research. She's looking to make a collection of signatures. It's just... not a good look on Mathilde's part. I value the character interactions between these two far more than a bunch of trophies on the wall.
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"Trophies on the wall" --- that's just no true, it has immediate applicability in discerning what relates to what god, and whether differently named gods are in fact different ones or merely the same one known by different names:
Boney said:
You remember the Cult of Karnos, and your puzzling over their almost-Elven Runes. You remember conversations with Asarnil and Deathfang, about Taal and Kurnous and Isha and Rhya. You remember Cython drawing lines between the Classical Gods and the Cadai. You remember the strange sense of familiarity you got from the cobra sigil of a Nehekharan God.
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And that's just the immediate practical knowledge, it would be always there, ready to be used for and help with further divinity research and any other projects event tangentially related to divinity.
 
The tongs didnt work, staring at the coin didnt work, figuring out Karag Dums deal was too volatile. Please let us grab this chance, vote truth, and illegally download a god so we can torrent them to the College!!

Let us show those elves what humans can do to their flimsy religious philosophy!
 
DragonParadox said:
A deeply analytical scholar whose primary methods are experimental, yeah that is post enlightenment.
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So the Western post-enlightenment academic establishment would like to think, but the last few decades of history, archaeology and anthropology have managed to find an awful lot of evidence that humans have been doing those things far longer than since the Enlightenment.
Tasoli said:
Sacrifice is only sacrifice if it is meaningful. Mathilde is taking on a geass to not research divine ever again is the sacrifice she is making because that is what a meningful sacrifice actually is.
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Okay now this is just getting silly, but thank you for displaying the exact strain of reasoning I was originally asking Boney to provide a WOG on.
 
das_slash said:
This research path came from the intersection of a Divine artifact given to us and a unique substance never before seen, past paths to divine Insight were given directly by the Gods and they quickly learned not to do it again.
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This, at least for me personally, is a big part of why I am not voting for Truth.

We are threatening to infringe upon secrets the gods have actively sought to keep secret or disallow research into.
Ergo, reseraching this stuff carries the potential consequence of pissing off pretty much every god.
And in my estimation, the risk is not worth the reward of satisfying some curiosity.
 
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