- Pronouns
- They/Them
Whether or not this vote is the 'be all end all' of getting to research the Divine, as those two implied.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I think that keeping a secret aligns most with the god of secrets more than not, but at the same time 'surrender yourself to the wisdom of the gods because they are gods', cuts against the spirits of the colleges of magic. It was the motivation of unthinking faith that I found... distasteful for a mageister of the colleges of magic
Again, I liked kingreaper's take on this sort of thing back during the post Karag Dum trait votes.
"They're definitely opposites - but to me they're opposites in the sense of "opposite sides of the coin", rather than opposites in the sense of "learning vs. ignorance".
They're both about gaining more understanding of the gods. It's just that one of them is about gaining understanding by peeking behind the curtain, and the other by listening to their messages - and so the understanding gained will be different, but we cannot say which will be more useful.
EDIT: To use an analogy, Theologian is about trying to X-ray the gods and look at their internal anatomy. Mystic is about talking to the gods which will get to know their personalities."
The answer to "But how/when/why would we ever get a chance to study the gods again???" would be:
"You study them through the process of religious study and faith study."
Or in other words, think about it this way: how would any other person study the gods? How do Verenans research and study Verena? How do Sigmarites study Sigmar? Naturally, they do it through Bible Study of course.
More seriously... they study religion and gods the way IRL people study it. (And also in ways that IRL people can't/don't, because the Warhammer world is a supernatural world.)
But the point is, is that there is a path. It's just the answer to it is uncertain or odd or very dependent on the particular God and/or the particular person.
I think people who are saying that "You'll never be able to study the gods without this!" are... a bit inaccurate. Because it's more accurate to say that you won't be able to use the Vitae to take divine photographs.
You can still spend AP on tracking down religious artifacts, seeking out religious scholars and learning from them, buying all the religious books, and trying to raise your standing with a given Cult. Or on going on a pilgrimage of fingers or some other Ranaldite thing. You can play Indiana Jones and raid a ton of temples.
What you can't do, is whatever the Truth option of the Vitae+divine-stuff research is.
Though even then, the "Do not pursue this topic any further, at all," option is the "Prudence" option, to be fair.
"They're definitely opposites - but to me they're opposites in the sense of "opposite sides of the coin", rather than opposites in the sense of "learning vs. ignorance".
They're both about gaining more understanding of the gods. It's just that one of them is about gaining understanding by peeking behind the curtain, and the other by listening to their messages - and so the understanding gained will be different, but we cannot say which will be more useful.
EDIT: To use an analogy, Theologian is about trying to X-ray the gods and look at their internal anatomy. Mystic is about talking to the gods which will get to know their personalities."
The answer to "But how/when/why would we ever get a chance to study the gods again???" would be:
"You study them through the process of religious study and faith study."
Or in other words, think about it this way: how would any other person study the gods? How do Verenans research and study Verena? How do Sigmarites study Sigmar? Naturally, they do it through Bible Study of course.
More seriously... they study religion and gods the way IRL people study it. (And also in ways that IRL people can't/don't, because the Warhammer world is a supernatural world.)
But the point is, is that there is a path. It's just the answer to it is uncertain or odd or very dependent on the particular God and/or the particular person.
I think people who are saying that "You'll never be able to study the gods without this!" are... a bit inaccurate. Because it's more accurate to say that you won't be able to use the Vitae to take divine photographs.
You can still spend AP on tracking down religious artifacts, seeking out religious scholars and learning from them, buying all the religious books, and trying to raise your standing with a given Cult. Or on going on a pilgrimage of fingers or some other Ranaldite thing. You can play Indiana Jones and raid a ton of temples.
What you can't do, is whatever the Truth option of the Vitae+divine-stuff research is.
Though even then, the "Do not pursue this topic any further, at all," option is the "Prudence" option, to be fair.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
...the Colleges were literally set up by a devotee of Hoeth under the authority of the most pious man to ever pious. What the fuck are you smoking with this 'cuts against the spirit' shit?
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
I'm a good way behind the main discussion, and I've been wavering between truth and faith, but what ultimately convinced me was the argument that Ranald detected us doing this and chose not to let us know.
[X] Faith
If Ranald can detect us dripping AV on divine artefacts, so can other gods. If he didn't detect us, we're going behind his back. Therefore, I'd rather not try and poke the hornet nest on this one.
Now to go catch up on the next 13 pages...
[X] Faith
If Ranald can detect us dripping AV on divine artefacts, so can other gods. If he didn't detect us, we're going behind his back. Therefore, I'd rather not try and poke the hornet nest on this one.
Now to go catch up on the next 13 pages...
The colleges were set out as secular and Volans deeply distrusted the gods meddling in the use of magic, wishing to study all things in an objective light, limited only by the articles.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Volans wasn't in charge during the founding of the Colleges.
One of the Saint Greys that Mathilde venerates is a Saint because they introduced worship of Ranald to the Grey Order.
- Location
- Somewhere with a Thousand Watchful Eyes
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[x] Truth
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Twisting other peoples' posts into strawmen and asking me to refute the point they didn't actually make is something I'd rather you didn't do. The point it's very clear they're making is that they feel this is a rare opportunity, which is objectively true, and that they don't think it's likely that Mathilde will get another one. If you disagree with that assessment then debate it, don't try to sic me on it.
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
Nothing of the sort was implied. The question asked was 'with this avenue that you want to back out of being the only avenue discovered throughout the entire length of the quest, using a material that we alone have the supply of and has never before existed in the world's history, how exactly do you plan/expect to find another way?'
Volans was supreme patriarch and he did set up the ethos of how they were to treat magic, Teclis certainly did not have them worship Hoeth
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Kairos123
Insomniac Extraordinaire
[X] Truth
I want to see where we can take this. Tongs is dead, no one will ever vote necromancy, and taking time out of the backlog of actions to try to find a way to either extend math's life or increase her power isn't likely to happen.
Here we have a way to study the gods and divine magic. I want to. No idea where it will lead, but it is exciting.
I want to see where we can take this. Tongs is dead, no one will ever vote necromancy, and taking time out of the backlog of actions to try to find a way to either extend math's life or increase her power isn't likely to happen.
Here we have a way to study the gods and divine magic. I want to. No idea where it will lead, but it is exciting.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Staff Notice - Your pattern of posting over the last several pages has been disruptive and inflammatory.
Uh.
Kinda word for word here, not much to actually debate.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Faith
- Location
- Oklahoma
I'm voting faith cause Ranald is our friend, not because he's a god.
It is not subservience to not want to go behind your friend's back.
Please also read the paragraph literally above it... Context is important...
We have found one way to study godly things in 3 years of finding all sorts of magic (it's been a few decades in universe) and this is the best we got.
I was commenting on the motivation explicitly set out by another poster, several in fact. If yours is different that is another matter.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Yes, it says we're not likely to get another chance, clearly you want to dispute this but tell me Shane what other options do you see? I asked you a question and so far you've dodged it to twist my words into something I don't exactly agree with in its absolute form but doesn't really matter.
So to reiterate, given you want to research the divine but not with this option whats your game plan?
It's been three years this is all we have on the table to my knowledge, so what is the alternative?
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
It is not really going behind his back tough that is just something thread latched on as an rather erronous argument.
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
This isn't really going behind Ranald's back. Mathilde can literally feel his presence, but that his gaze is deliberately averted. Ranald has never before refrained from acting in a direct fashion to stop Mathilde if she was going down a bad path, like with the cat biting her to shatter the mirror the Wisdom's Asp was going to manifest through, or a letter arriving that can be summarized as saying "don't".
He wants plausible deniability, not for us to stop what we're doing.
- Location
- Lansing, MI
[X] Truth
If we're able to do this, it would be a MAJOR weapon to protect the empire. Being able to test some artifact, or magical effect, and be able to conclusively say that it is or is not from a proscribed god would revolutionize the work of the witch hunters and their ilk. Look at Kragg's dilemma with the Axe of Unknown Origin - one of the big worries in Warhammer is always "Is this a blessing of friendly gods, or a deception of chaos?", and this might be able to provide a way to demonstratively prove "Yes, this think is OK/No, this thing is not OK".
If we're able to do this, it would be a MAJOR weapon to protect the empire. Being able to test some artifact, or magical effect, and be able to conclusively say that it is or is not from a proscribed god would revolutionize the work of the witch hunters and their ilk. Look at Kragg's dilemma with the Axe of Unknown Origin - one of the big worries in Warhammer is always "Is this a blessing of friendly gods, or a deception of chaos?", and this might be able to provide a way to demonstratively prove "Yes, this think is OK/No, this thing is not OK".
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
Give us an alternative way I will say you are right until then you are wrong.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
That's not quite right either.
The reason Mathilde can feel Ranalds presence is because of the AV that sensation was the AV turning into Ranald energy.
- Location
- Mexico
How many avenues of studying the nature of Gods do we have, right now? This is the only one we have that actually promises true knowledge, your comments seem to imply you do want to pursue Divine research, then my advice is : "take it", you don't get to do divine research if you refuse the chances as they come because they are not perfect, and honestly i don't believe we can just expect better chances to keep coming until we settle with one.