Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
That was the Celestial Order's Magister Matriarch and she warned about potentially needing the K8P artillery school - which might indicate a siege of K8P or might indicate K8P forces fighting elsewhere and needing a lot of artillery (which would be particularly important since Azul's Engineers Guild is extremely conservative so if the Southern Holds are to march they'll really want human artillery backing them up).
My big instinct is that it's a concern about Tamurkhan, the non-everchosen-but-functionally-an-everchosen Nurglite invader who has the big idea of going through the entire dark lands to attack the empire from the south and his target is nuln as "city of magnus." Even a victorious defense can potentially see a lot of infrastructural damage and means there's a lot to be said diversifying "where we build the empire's man answer to greator daemons."
 
As for the Alric thing... Honestly, has anyone considered the possibility that he might have a point, or thinks he has a point? Namely, what if he suspects Mira and/or Egrimm of being trouble and bad news? Therefore, he might think that he has to regain and maintain power; and also keep an eye on his apprentice, in case he falls or has fallen all along or whatever. I mean, if his suspicions were right and Egrimm were a secret Chaos cultist or he had heard a prophecy that he was destined to cause a great disaster or something... yeah. (Or maybe the prophecy was more vague, something like "one of your students/creations/pupils/seeds will cause calamity" that could be interpreted to refer to your apprentice or to your children or to butterfly effects of your actions. You'd curse and grumble and second-guess yourself, but you'd keep your apprentice on a short leash anyway, wouldn't you?)

Things probably seem reasonable or logical to the people making those decisions or in those mindsets.

... Also, we don't actually have all that much information on Alric, Mira, and the Light College. We just have Egrimm's grumblings and complaints and 'We know Alric's gone here and here and there' and the rest is speculation.

I mean why would we assume, Horstman is a friend and Alric was an asshole to our friend while also being the man who allowed the Night of A Thousand Arcane Duels to happen... oh and on top of that he was pathetic in his duel with Dragonas. One poor decision does not excuse another. The very fact that one has to invent prophecy to make him out to be anything but a has bin is proof enough that we should apply Occam's Razor to this.
 
My big instinct is that it's a concern about Tamurkhan, the non-everchosen-but-functionally-an-everchosen Nurglite invader who has the big idea of going through the entire dark lands to attack the empire from the south and his target is nuln as "city of magnus." Even a victorious defense can potentially see a lot of infrastructural damage and means there's a lot to be said diversifying "where we build the empire's man answer to greator daemons."
If Tamurkhan takes his canon route, I think he'll be rolling up on Karak 8 Peaks.
 
'Regular' Daemons (as opposed to Daemon Princes) are fragments of the Chaos God that formed them and it seems like most of them never develop any kind of independent thought, leading me to believe that for the most part they can't be called sapient in the first place.
Alternatively, they are sapient, but because they're Neverborn they don't count towards the rule.
 
So a few weeks ago I reread the Quest and...is it just me, or is something big coming?

Someone (I can't remember who atm) warned us that the defences at K8P will "come in handy" or words to that effect, and while we've certainly knocked out the local Skaven and Greenskins, there's no garuantee they won't come back with a vengeance as those races always do. Then you have the narrative point that you don't build a big fuckoff tower of doom and only use it once...

Then you have Vlag and the plan to take Mad Dog Pass...good for trade since it means the Dawi control all the World's Spine Mountains, but it also exposes them to the Chaos Dwarves and other Badlands nasties. And we have been hearing about the Chaos Dwarves more...

Now, this isn't really up there in terms of things to worry about - if you're not considering the possibility of a massive war you don't belong in this setting. But I do think it would be a rather satisfying and dramatic direction for this Quest to take, for the Dawi to be at their strongest in generations and have to defend their new position against all comers.

Then there's all this business with Marienburg which could turn into a terrible war if it's not handled wel, and now we know the Chaos Gods have set up an Everchosen bracket...while I don't think the latter is likely to come up any time soon, the former breaking out at the same time the Dawi are fighting off Skaven/Greenskins/Chaos Dwarves could be really bad.

There were a few other ominous bits of maybe-foreshadowing but overall this is more a gut feeling - we're doing pretty well, strengthening the Dawi, hurting Chaos where we can, liberating Sylvania, and that run of good luck won't last forever. At some point the pendulum will start to swing back, right?

Or maybe I'm just starting to think like a Grey Wizard.
One thing I trust is that there is not some kind of "balance" that says that because of all the good we do the bad must come proportionally strong. No, I think the big bad situation is coming either way and any good we do now will serve as one more barricade against calamity.
 
One thing I trust is that there is not some kind of "balance" that says that because of all the good we do the bad must come proportionally strong. No, I think the big bad situation is coming either way and any good we do now will serve as one more barricade against calamity.
While an arbitrary balance that makes additional chaos dudes spawn every time that something good happens would be stupid, it is fair to say that if we're doing better than expected then surely the notoriously fractious and normally-not-actually-serious-about-winning forces of Destruction might start using some of their toys a bit more seriously.

If only because to them losing easily is even less fun than winning easily.
 
Last edited:
While an arbitrary balance that makes additional chaos dudes spawn every time that something good happens would be stupid, it is fair to say that if we're doing better than expected then surely the notoriously fractious and normally-not-actually-serious-about-winning forces of Destruction might start using some of their toys a bit more seriously.

If only because to them losing easily is even less fun than winning easily.
I expect that we would need something like a century or so of winning for our actions to be noticed as more than a blip. But also if all winning was directly or indirectly caused by us I would expect the chaos gods to give us more personal attention rather than ramping up their operations in general.

You know you are a big deal when just about every cultist knows your name.
 
Last edited:
If Chaos is starting to move, it might be because they expected the previous Everchosen and Great War to have knocked out the Dwarfs completely.

The Great War Against Chaos saw the end of the Norscan Dwarfs, and the loss of enough Old Holds to put the Throne of Power's energy supply into the negatives. That meant that it turned the lifespan of the Dwarfs into a numbered one; as soon as the power ran out, they would be screwed; every Karak would have to close their doors and live deep underground, and every surface-dwelling Dwarf would start to petrify.

At the same time, the Great War was also meant to disrupt and massively damage Kislev, the Empire, and as many other Old World nations as they feasibly could. To be the death-toll of the Empire which was in the middle of a civil war that had lasted for a thousand years. What could go wrong? They probably did not expect the Gods of the Empire to send signs and tell everyone to cut that shit out and to prepare for war and to rally behind Magnus, and for Magnus to manage to beat the Everchosen.

And now, the Dwarfs have reclaimed two Karaks and have gotten their energy flow into the positives. What was supposed to be a knockdown blow for the Karaz Ankor, and a bitter "stolen hope" as their new leader reconnected to the Norscan Dwarfs only to lose them and gained the throne only to find out how close they are to defeat and death, turned out to not be a deathblow; and instead the Karaz Ankor can continue on still. The Empire wasn't destroyed at all. Kislev... well, it's not fully recovered a century and a half afterward so, well, yeah.


As for the Alric thing... Honestly, has anyone considered the possibility that he might have a point, or thinks he has a point? Namely, what if he suspects Mira and/or Egrimm of being trouble and bad news? Therefore, he might think that he has to regain and maintain power; and also keep an eye on his apprentice, in case he falls or has fallen all along or whatever. I mean, if his suspicions were right and Egrimm were a secret Chaos cultist or he had heard a prophecy that he was destined to cause a great disaster or something... yeah. (Or maybe the prophecy was more vague, something like "one of your students/creations/pupils/seeds will cause calamity" that could be interpreted to refer to your apprentice or to your children or to butterfly effects of your actions. You'd curse and grumble and second-guess yourself, but you'd keep your apprentice on a short leash anyway, wouldn't you?)

Things probably seem reasonable or logical to the people making those decisions or in those mindsets.

... Also, we don't actually have all that much information on Alric, Mira, and the Light College. We just have Egrimm's grumblings and complaints and 'We know Alric's gone here and here and there' and the rest is speculation.
As far as Alric having some actual, legitimate concerns the thing is that I wouldn't look at Egrimm Van Horstmann being the source of those concerns.

Because if Alric is looking into the death of Hexensohn? or talking to Elspeth about "certain sensitive matters?" Neither of those have been mentioned in the quest about before have anything to do with Egrimm, but they both have a history that has a great deal to do with the very certain grey wizard who stole his right hand man to begin with. And in the former case a certain little book too, if he found enough.

So yeah, taking for a moment the assumption as axiom there's someone in particular connected to his actions, then I'm pretty sure right now that Alric is looking into Mathilde's past.

After all, our actions were directly connected to the death of a great many plotters in the twilight hours of our journeying, which Regimand had to contract out for, and earlier to the death Hexensohn as well, even if the latter is removed by degrees and chance alike. Now he's looking into Tabalecland, and I'm wondering about whether our time as a spymaster (or the EIC currently) has any connection to all that. Because it certainly looks like the path a man might take looking back through our own actions, starting from a notable incident he might have been hired for.
 
So yeah, taking for a moment the assumption as axiom there's someone in particular connected to his actions, then I'm pretty sure right now that Alric is looking into Mathilde's past.
Ah, yeah, that's a good point. He might be checking things to make sure that Mathilde is on the up-and-up; she poached his apprentice, and is an equally mysterious and famous rising star of a Shadowmancer. Or searching for leverage. Or trying to figure out... something, I dunno.

Checking out our background, to make sure that we aren't up to anything nefarious -- or perhaps just checking if there's anything that we would want that he could give us, or maybe leverage he could find whether for good or for ill -- could be part of his aims here. Since, well, if he offered us more support for our Waystone Project than Mira would, well, would we be tempted by that? In exchange for him getting some of the credit of the project's success or whatever.

Anyway, I think we just should not jump to conclusions -- or worse, panic -- even if he does wind up investigating us/our history tho'. Because, well, "finding out what a Grey Wizard Magister Lord is up to and their background" is something that's both a pain in the butt to do, and also something reasonable for a person to do if they have business with or concerns about said Grey Wizard.

Basically: remember that Grey Wizards are not the only paranoiacs in this setting, and plenty of people have reason to be paranoid. (Also goes for ambition too. And not everybody who winds up working at cross-purposes with you is a foe, though at this point we don't know if he even is or would at any point be working at cross-purposes to us.)


It'll be amusing if it turns out that, as somebody speculated, he winds up taking down the Karnos Cult and rides that back to power and influence again though.
 
"I think I may be noticing a pattern," you say. "He's thwarted in Nuln by the Lady Matriarch of the Amethysts, so he starts poking around the fate of her predecessor. He's thwarted by Roswita, and then he turns his attention to Talabecland, where she tracked the peat smuggling to."

"Roswita? Van Hal?" You nod. "That's right, you worked with her father. Did you get to know her then?"

"No, I never knew she existed until she inherited. I got to know her later, as part of being Loremaster to Karak Eight Peaks."

"You didn't continue on after she inherited?" Egrimm asks, his voice carefully neutral but his eyes searching.
Oh damn. I didn't notice this at first, but the reason Egrimm asked about Roswita was the super familiar way Mathilde had of referring to her. It's generally expected that you'd refer to an Elector Countess you don't know/aren't familiar with with the proper title and possibly with the family name. I mean, she referred to Elspeth with her title and not her name. Must have been weird for Horstmann to hear Mathilde namedrop Roswita's first name with no explanation. He then thought she would have likely gotten close to her on shift under Abelhelm, but then she thwarts that idea by saying she didn't follow up.

I assume the searching look was trying to look for clues in her body language as to what type of person she is. Getting to know an Elector Countess on shift is understandable, but getting to know her as Loremaster of Eight Peaks after no longer working for her as a Grey Wizard? Could be that he started suspecting Mathilde is involved in more politics than she should be as a Grey Magister.
 
Last edited:
Quick question, who is next in like for the title of Emperor beyond his kid? I know Roswita is in third place but I don't know who is second.
 
Quick question, who is next in like for the title of Emperor beyond his kid? I know Roswita is in third place but I don't know who is second.
There is no established line of succession, the only info we have is Heidi's supposition about who would win an election.

That being said, she thought the Duke of Talabecland would be the default winner.
 
There is no established line of succession, the only info we have is Heidi's supposition about who would win an election.

That being said, she thought the Duke of Talabecland would be the default winner.
I wonder of Alric thinks the same here. Which is what I was thinking of when I asked that question.
 
Quick question, who is next in like for the title of Emperor beyond his kid? I know Roswita is in third place but I don't know who is second.
Heidi's theory:
"Luitpold isn't a young man, and Emperor's a job where many never have the chance to grow old. If something happens to him, Gods forbid, then it needs to be Mandred that's next. Electors don't like child Emperors, and I want to be able to count on their support should the worst happen. If there was a vote tomorrow, it'd almost certainly be Grand Duke Feuerbach of Talabecland. Failing that, Hertwig or van Hal."
I'm not so sure about Hertwig. The current Hertwig is Wolfram, who probably came in power after this statement from Heidi. If Boney follows canon, Wolfram came into power somewhere around 2486 IC, like one year ago, so he's still very inexperienced. His father might have had a chance, but Wolfram himself probably doesn't.

With regards to a different topic, I went back to reread a section from the first Laurelorn update and noticed something:
"Dear Kadoh," she says in a soft, musical voice, unleashing the faintest hint of a smile towards her Champion.

"My Queen," he says, bowing deeply.

"And the clever disciple of my very clever cousin," she says, turning her gaze to you. "I have heard good things from several quarters, some of them not prone to agreement with the others. That you fought and bled for two very old families and laid rest to very old shames. And those that listen to the Waystones say that when you reclaimed the last of the peaks for the line of Angrund, they awoke and rejoined a network that had only shrunk since the time when Laurelorn was the Eleventh Kingdom of Ulthuan."
She approaches slowly, her gaze lowering as she closes the distance. She must have at least a foot and a half on you, maybe more. "Eight Orders," she says thoughtfully, her gaze flicking to the ground behind you. "Ulthuan speaks so easily of the corruptibility of humanity, but my cousin saw through that to the truth of the matter: you were not meant to stand unbowed by the Winds like the Dwarves, nor were you meant to bend to them and then straighten unchanged like the Elves. You were meant to embrace one Wind, and in doing so take flight." She reaches out towards you and a wisp of spray from Rainbow Falls answers the gesture, abandoning the pull of Ulgu to entwine around her finger. "Ulgu. Legend has it that it was the first Wind that Hoeth mastered, as His confusion at the Winds drew it to Him. A good omen." She smiles briefly, a flash of genuine amusement that disappears in a heartbeat. "I have had a scribe collate the information you will need to set down roots. We will be watching with great interest."
Is it just me, or is the way Marrisith speaks in the Laurelorn update quite different to the way she speaks in the Dreaming Wood update? SHe even seems much more expressive in the Dreaming Wood update. Is it because Kadoh was there that she acted differently? Or did she decide to change her approach after observing Mathilde integrating into the local culture?
 
*pokes head in*

Reread the quest because I've been out of reading updates for several months. Did the thread every concoct a reasonable theory for what happened at Karag Dum?
 
*pokes head in*

Reread the quest because I've been out of reading updates for several months. Did the thread every concoct a reasonable theory for what happened at Karag Dum?
There are many theories over what happened and no solid conclusion, but I can direct you to an effortpost I made a while ago:
Alright, I'm going to take a shot at the Karag Dum-Morghur mystery, so this post is going to be long:

So this is the first big hint as to what is happening that I will be dissecting. Note here that the last Runesmith Conclave Karag Dum attended was in 2246. This date is important because of something Joerg says later. The warnings that Dum gave were ignored because of the High King's death at the time, Bretonnia tearing itself apart, the Tomb Kings stirring, and Ulthuan landing at the shores of the Old World. It is explained that Finubar wanted to rebuild bridges, and I will be going over this in more detail later, but the Tomb Kings and Ulthuan landing, and the date of the conclave, 2246 is what I want to highlight.

Joerg here says that the last time that Morghur was spotted in the Old World was in the Battle of Arden in 2244, the reason Ulthuan landed on the coasts of the Old World and one of the reasons the Dwarves ignored Dum's warnings in the Conclave that happened in 2246 two years later. This is how Asarnil describes the Battle of Arden:

Yes this is a biased account, but it's the most detail we get on the actual Battle of Arden, the last time Morghur was sighted. Asarnil never mentioned if Morghur escaped or was "killed" in this confrontation, but the implication is that they technically won even if they suffered a lot of losses. So we know that Morghur was last sighted in the Forest of Arden in 2244, the Dum reps arrive to the Conclave in 2246, they get ignored and some time later Morghur ends up at Karag Dum. The expansion rate of the sands at 6 inches per day means that the area of the sands roughly lines up with around 2 centuries of expansion. This implies Morghur ended up in Karag Dum somewhere after 2246, if he indeed has a connection to the sands.

This is a description of Karag Dum as it is now, and I'm quoting it mostly as a reference for people to know what it looks like. It's a crater filled in with white sand strewn with bone until it breaks into a primeval "familiar" forest that transitions into a singular mountain, rather than being the largest of a series of mountains extending from an exposed vale.

Here Cyrston uses the term "Old World Species, Northern". He then uses Forests from the Empire such as Laurelorn, Forest of Shadows and Drakwald as examples. The question is, has Cyrston been to Bretonnia? The Forest of Arden, which used to be the lair of Morghur and the last place he was seen in, is also in Northern Bretonnia, which is also in the Old World. The Forest of Arden is roughly level with Laurelorn/Forest of Shadows but is simply farther west as a result of being in Bretonnia, so it strikes me as likely that the Forest was plucked out from Arden.

This part is hard for me, as I'm not good at geology. That being said, from my research, a "stratovolcano" seems to be a type of mountain built from Oceanic and Continental Crust subduction zones. These type of structures also tend to be heavier in Fesic than Mafic, which the Dwarf noted here as not necessarily being the case. As far as I know there are no oceans in the areas surrounding Karag Dum, so the construction of a stratovolcano here seems weird. The Dwarf here also mentions that the sand is not fragmented scoria, despite the presence of scoria around the crater, but rather sedimentary silicate, the kind you'd find in the Southern Dark Lands, Araby and Nehekhara.

The area inside the crater is hotter and drier than the area outside it. Stone that enters the area is transmuted into white sand of a sedimentary silicate nature with time, and other objects are buried inside but not impossible to pull up. Skeletons don't get buried, instead floating to the surface through some buoyancy. Despite there being no time dilation effect on the spoilage of an apple, bodies that fall in the crater are skeletonised far quicker, ending up as skeletons after one day. The sands expand past the crater at a rate of 6 inches per day. The ambient Dhar in the area is lower than the surrounding areas, and described by the Lights as maintaining a steady frequency, going no higher or lower. The ambient Dhar is still higher than non Chaos Waste area. There is some sort of divine energy responsible for transmuting the sand, not one that Mathilde recognises but not Chaotic in nature. Morghur's chaos aura is somehow surpressed while he's in the area, only being shoved out when he's threated.

The Beastmen come from the forests, and they only partially feed on the bodies and leave them. This behavior is what they do when they're wary and being defensive, protecting something sacred to them and expecting counter strikes. How do the Beastmen come in? Joerg provides the theory that they're using the "Beast Paths". My current theory on what the beast paths are is that they are a corrupted version of the Asrai's "World Root" movement system allowing them to walk between trees. My theory is that the forest the beastmen are surrounded by is a portion of the Forest of Arden plucked out of Bretonnia and shoved in here, and there are Beast Paths leading from Arden to this portion of the Forest.

I don't have a definitive answer, but I think what Thorek said up there is a clue. Around the time that Dum was warning of Chaos, the Tomb Kings were stirring and Ulthuan landed on the shores to deal with Morghur. What if Dum saw the threats encroaching on the Karaz Ankor, they saw Chaos, and they decided to deal with multiple birds using one stone? They must have had some space manipulaton/communication/translocation runes, but my theory is that if we go to the Forest of Arden in Bretonnia, perhaps in Artois, perhaps in L'Anguille, perhaps in Gisoreux or even Lyonesse, we might be able to get more info on this line of inquiry. The Tomb Kings are a far more difficult line to pursue.
Should have most of the relevant facts.
 
@Boney, I must have the annotation to this pun. Cytho I get is Eltharin for wisdom among other things, but I have no idea what the next two words work out to.

Cython-Cromarc-Kel, drawing from both Tar-Eltharin and Fan-Eltharin to get as close to his name as Eltharin could manage with 'Thorok'. 'Wise Handmaiden of the Heath' would probably be the most direct translation, which was probably meant to be 'wise wielder of benevolent protective energies' that Mathilde shortened to 'wise artisan', because in Khazalid 'artisan' has inbuilt connotations of serving the common good. If she was really looking to start trouble, she could instead have taken the 'futility' association of 'cython', taken 'heath' as 'small fire', and the associations of 'kel' with magic to get a meaning of 'petty wizard who doesn't know when to give up'.

Actually @Boney important question, Where is Wolf and how has he adjusted to the move?

He's still at Eight Peaks. Mathilde's not going to bring him over until she's comfortable enough with the place to be sure she can handle any difficulties with Wolf trying to figure out his place in an environment that would seem so familiar but would be so alien.

Oh damn. I didn't notice this at first, but the reason Egrimm asked about Roswita was the super familiar way Mathilde had of referring to her. It's generally expected that you'd refer to an Elector Countess you don't know/aren't familiar with with the proper title and possibly with the family name. I mean, she referred to Elspeth with her title and not her name. Must have been weird for Horstmann to hear Mathilde namedrop Roswita's first name with no explanation. He then thought she would have likely gotten close to her on shift under Abelhelm, but then she thwarts that idea by saying she didn't follow up.

I assume the searching look was trying to look for clues in her body language as to what type of person she is. Getting to know an Elector Countess on shift is understandable, but getting to know her as Loremaster of Eight Peaks after no longer working for her as a Grey Wizard? Could be that he started suspecting Mathilde is involved in more politics than she should be as a Grey Magister.

Yeah, Mathilde often picks up on things like that and starts tugging at the thread, but she's not the only one who can do so.
 
So this is something I've wondered ever since I first read it:
Above you the sky is broken by three towers, the only things that break the otherwise even skyline: one of silver, one of obsidian, and one of marble.
I've already questioned how the Eonir get all of their building material like the Marble that forms every wall and building, the giant tower here and the flagstones used for the Agora. But what's even weirder than the sheer abundance of marble the Eonir have is where the hell they got enough obsidian to make a tower.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression obsidian is formed from cooled down lava and as a result it's found in places where eruptions have taken place like next to volcanos and calderas. As far as I know, there are no volcanos anywhere near Laurelorn. Maybe the Middle Mountains have a volcano, but that's out of the bounds of the forest. Where did they get that obsidian? Can obsidian be formed without volcanos involved?

EDIT: Or maybe they imported all their obsidian from Ulthuan back when they were a colony. That's an option.
 
Oh damn. I didn't notice this at first, but the reason Egrimm asked about Roswita was the super familiar way Mathilde had of referring to her. It's generally expected that you'd refer to an Elector Countess you don't know/aren't familiar with with the proper title and possibly with the family name. I mean, she referred to Elspeth with her title and not her name. Must have been weird for Horstmann to hear Mathilde namedrop Roswita's first name with no explanation. He then thought she would have likely gotten close to her on shift under Abelhelm, but then she thwarts that idea by saying she didn't follow up.

I assume the searching look was trying to look for clues in her body language as to what type of person she is. Getting to know an Elector Countess on shift is understandable, but getting to know her as Loremaster of Eight Peaks after no longer working for her as a Grey Wizard? Could be that he started suspecting Mathilde is involved in more politics than she should be as a Grey Magister.
And then he's gonna find out they published a paper together. Lololol.
 
Getting to know an Elector Countess on shift is understandable, but getting to know her as Loremaster of Eight Peaks after no longer working for her as a Grey Wizard? Could be that he started suspecting Mathilde is involved in more politics than she should be as a Grey Magister.
On the other hand, he was getting to know her while as Loremaster of Karak Eight Peaks, a dwarf kingdom far from the Empire and thus not conducive to getting involved in Empire politics even with gyrocopter assistance. That she's engaging in enough politics to be improper for a shadowmancer is unlikely.

Mathilde easily but accidentally dropped Roswita's first name and the only explanation she gave for how they got so close is she "worked with her". The conclusion Egrimm will draw is as incorrect as it is salacious.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top