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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I'm reading Night's Dark Masters and getting lots of neat ideas for my next omake, which I'm super inspired to do. Unfortunately I'm busy playing Guild Wars in Granblue Fantasy so I can't really write right now. I thought then that I might as well post some of my research that I've found very interesting and possibly relevant to DL?

Ok, so I'm gonna be making a Johann van Hal omake. He's an actual character in Warhammer and one of the "Dogs of War" from the White Dwarf articles. In the process of writing the omake, I made a brief list of notable Van Hals in history that you guys can peruse:

Frederick Van Hal: Sylvanian Baron and Morrite Priest. First Necromancer in the Empire, makes the Liber Mortis with Vashanesh's ("Lord Vladimir") help. Fights back against the Skaven during the 1111 IC Black Plague, gets killed by an apprentice of his and corrupts Sylvania with all the energy he harnessed. I'm pretty sure he's also the guy who made the "Corpse Carts" and obviously the guy who made Vanhel's Danse Macabre. Doomed his bloodline to serve as Witch Hunters to make up for his actions.

Gunther Van Hal: Around 1940's IC, Gunther discovers the corruption of the SIgmarite Knightly Order known as the "Ordo Draconis" in Blood Keep at the hands of the Blood Knight Walach Harkon, and Harkon's formalisation of the "Blood Dragon" Order. Gunther leads several armies into a siege, destroys the keep and kills most of them. Some escape and scatter all over forming the current Blood Dragons.

Helmut Van Hal: After Vlad von Carstein and Isabella von Carstein's deaths, there were 5 inheritors to the Von Carstein title. Pietr von Carstein was one of them. Helmut found Pietr's coffind, staked him through it then throughouly annhilated him. In case you're curious about the other Von Carstein's fates: One of them attacked Middenheim and was shot through the heart by a silver arrow from a Knight of the White Wolf. Another got ripped to shreds by Konrad. The remaining two were Konrad and Mannfred.

Abelheim Van Hal: The Hunter Count. Became Elector Count of Stirland 2470 IC and made vast changes and reformations to the province, including dismantling the Stirland League, creating new roads and strengthening the military for a venture into Sylvania. Succeeded in retaking the Haunted Hills around 2476 but died shortly afterwards at the Battle of Drakenhof. His campaign was still successful at the hands of Mathilde Weber, toppling Castle Drakenhof and ending the Von Carstein rule of Sylvania.

Roswita Van Hal: [INSERT FANCY TITLE HERE]. Elector Countess of Stirland after her father Abelheim's death. Her campaigns into Sylvania were by far the most extensive in perhaps the entirety of Imperial history, and certainly the most successful. Sylvania is now no longer under open Vampire rule outside of two areas that are slowly being ground down. It would still take a very long time to truly clean up the province from all vestiges of Vampirism.

Hertwig Van Hal: A physician who went by the name of Hertwig Teichmann to escape the Van Hal legacy. He studied in Nuln and was quite the successful doctor, but one day he pulled a stake out of a frozen vampire corpse not knowing what it was. The vampire woke up and killed his fiance, so he got mad and killed the Vampire. Joined the Fellowship of the Shroud soon afterwards and became a Vampire Hunter. His last name being Van Hal is actually a Total War Warhammer 2 thing, but I'm including him in the Omake because I think he's interesting.

Johann Van Hal: Reminder that he's a White Dwarf character, but I think he's a fairly well known one? He travels alongside an unstable Sigmarite priest by the name of Wilhelm Hasburg, the both of them as mercenaries wandering the lands defeating the enemies of the faith. They spend most of their money on donations to Sigmarite Churches.

I'm quite happy that Abelheim and Roswita are pretty up there even when compared to their ancestors. Only Gunther Van Hal comes close to their achievements.
 
Alliterate said:
I mean... ole' Freddie might have a strong case... ;)
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I was measuring greatness of the achievement by the net positive effect. One could definitely argue Fred has the "greatest achievement" from a neutral perspective where you don't care about wrong or right, and certainly the positive value of his actions were immense. It's just a shame that the negative value could be argued to outweigh the positive.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
That makes some sweeping assumptions about basically everything outside of the Empire and Bretonnia. And relies on certain presumptions (for instance, that one is not utilising 5th Edition Bretonnia).
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I mean this is a setting written by GW, I think we can assume that yes, they do not usually make nice egalitarian societies. As for 5th edition Bretonia, it may be idealized, but it is still a super-hierarchical theocracy with the trappings of monarchy.
 
Codex said:
Abelheim Van Hal: The Hunter Count.
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It's "Abelhelm", with an L.

Looking at the Van Hal history, it's kind of terrifying to think that Abelhelm was one single person away from being just another pilloried failure of the Van Hal line; a reckless fool who took a bankrupt province and impoverished it even further mustering an enormous army, only to die ignominiously at his ancient enemy's doorstep. Without its leader, the army likely would have taken the town of Drakenhof and stopped there.

But he had brought that one single person along, someone with a will of iron and nerves of steel and a newly discovered addiction to cannonfire. So instead he went down in history as the greatest Van Hal to ever live, for dying a martyr to end the rule of the Von Carsteins.

Like Roswita said, the fact that he died achieving greatness just made him greater in everyone's eyes. If he'd lived, they'd have spent all their time complaining about his dumb and evil taxes.
 
MooseHowl said:
It's "Abelhelm", with an L.

Looking at the Van Hal history, it's kind of terrifying to think that Abelhelm was one single person away from being just another pilloried failure of the Van Hal line; a reckless fool who took a bankrupt province and impoverished it even further mustering an enormous army, only to die ignominiously at his ancient enemy's doorstep. Without its leader, the army likely would have taken the town of Drakenhof and stopped there.

But he had brought that one single person along, someone with a will of iron and nerves of steel and a newly discovered addiction to cannonfire. So instead he went down in history as the greatest Van Hal to ever live, for dying a martyr to end the rule of the Von Carsteins.

Like Roswita said, the fact that he died achieving greatness just made him greater in everyone's eyes. If he'd lived, they'd have spent all their time complaining about his dumb and evil taxes.
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Eh.. we should maybe keep in mind that most of eastern Stirland still curses him behind closed doors. What his legacy is in the long run is very much up to what his daughter manages.
 
DragonParadox said:
Eh.. we should maybe keep in mind that most of eastern Stirland still curses him behind closed doors. What his legacy is in the long run is very much up to what his daughter manages.
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I don't know what Sylvania feels about Abelhelm (and goddamnit I've been saying his name wrong for years), but I mean:
Boney said:
Her father's name is embossed between yours and Maximilian's. "The Hunter's Hills," she murmurs. "They started calling it that before I arrived. They love him, you know. If he'd lived they would still be grumbling about taxes and land prices, but since he's with Sigmar, they love him. Timber prices are crashing throughout the Empire like falling dominoes and they're still clear-cutting the Ghoul Wood and they'll keep doing it if they start making a loss on every log. The Hills themselves are an entire's county worth of prime grazelands and with the 1st in Drakenhof, the 3rd in Nachthafen, and the 4th in Vanhaldenschlosse they're as safe as Averland, and most of the land-owners are ex-military who swear in Khazalid and get a friendlier reception from Zhufbar Dwarves than I do."
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His legacy is secured. In the short term there are Vampire Cultists who hate him. People who prefered to pay blood taxes over money taxes. There are people who are grumbling about supporting all the military endeavours. But the benefit of Abelhelm being a martyr is that it's very hard for the majority to direct that grumbling to him. He's a hero to most of Stirland.
 
Codex said:
I don't know what Sylvania feels about Abelhelm (and goddamnit I've been saying his name wrong for years), but I mean:

His legacy is secured. In the short term there are Vampire Cultists who hate him. People who prefered to pay blood taxes over money taxes. There are people who are grumbling about supporting all the military endeavours. But the benefit of Abelhelm being a martyr is that it's very hard for the majority to direct that grumbling to him. He's a hero to most of Stirland.
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Most of Silvania is a low level vampire cult, Vlad had armies of the living marching along side undead... and they were doing so willingly. That is going to take generations to change
 
DragonParadox said:
Most of Silvania is a low level vampire cult, Vlad had armies of the living marching along side undead... and they were doing so willingly. That is going to take generations to change
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It's been almost 500 years since Vlad, and almost 400 years since Mannfred. The rulers of Sylvania have been steadily growing worse, weaker and plain horrible. During Konrad's reign, the people of Sylvania greatly regretted their support due to his incredibly shitty rule, and they were only appeased by Mannfred being a more competent ruler. None of the rulers since have been anywhere as good as Vlad or Mannfred.

Sylvania is also much less populous than Stirland. Remember how we marched across an "entire county's worth of prime grazeland" in the Haunted Hills and we saw like three settlements (one of which was ruins) on the edges of those hills, and barely anyone that wasn't a monster or undead inhabiting them? Southern Stirland alone probably has a larger population than all of Sylvania. Even if, for some reason, the entirety of Sylvania hates Abelhelm, far more people love him than hate him.
 
Codex said:
It's been almost 500 years since Vlad, and almost 400 years since Mannfred. The rulers of Sylvania have been steadily growing worse, weaker and plain horrible. During Konrad's reign, the people of Sylvania greatly regretted their support due to his incredibly shitty rule, and they were only appeased by Mannfred being a more competent ruler. None of the rulers since have been anywhere as good as Vlad or Mannfred.

Sylvania is also much less populous than Stirland. Remember how we marched across an "entire county's worth of prime grazeland" in the Haunted Hills and we saw like three settlements (one of which was ruins) on the edges of those hills, and barely anyone that wasn't a monster or undead inhabiting them? Southern Stirland alone probably has a larger population than all of Sylvania. Even if, for some reason, the entirety of Sylvania hates Abelhelm, far more people love him than hate him.
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Fair enough on the population disparity. I would argue that the vampire sympathy is much more common than not still precisely because it is seen as so transgressive. I mean think about it, everyone else thinks the Sylvanians are crazy and evil for allying with vampires, that makes them suspicious of them and it pushes the latter deeper into isolation in a land where the only real protection is vampires. This is what every adult Sylvanian has known all their lives. Or to quote canon:

"They are stronger than us, smarter than us, live longer than us, and are far better looking than us. They are our superiors in every respect, and the taxes are lower when they rule. When they come back I will be the first to welcome them." —Hanskarl Denk, Sylvanian.

That does not refer to Vlad's time
 
DragonParadox said:
Eh.. we should maybe keep in mind that most of eastern Stirland still curses him behind closed doors. What his legacy is in the long run is very much up to what his daughter manages.
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There'll always be some of those, but there are plenty of others. Bylorhof. "Codrin Petrescue". Teufelheim will be much happier without the psychopathic "college" raiding their own populace for research subjects.

It's nice not having as many zombies stumbling through the fields all the time kicking over the cabbages. Pretty nice watching corrupt nobles and greedy merchants get thrown on the pyres for once, too. Does an oppressed peasant's heart good, that does.

Thousands of them got more upset about being asked to give up their crossbows and try firearms than they were about the actual conquest.
Edit: Come to think of it, I don't remember exactly where they came from. Mostly Stirland? I don't remember which parts though.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Fair enough on the population disparity. I would argue that the vampire sympathy is much more common than not still precisely because it is seen as so transgressive. I mean think about it, everyone else thinks the Sylvanians are crazy and evil for allying with vampires, that makes them suspicious of them and it pushes the latter deeper into isolation in a land where the only real protection is vampires. This is what every adult Sylvanian has known all their lives. Or to quote canon:

"They are stronger than us, smarter than us, live longer than us, and are far better looking than us. They are our superiors in every respect, and the taxes are lower when they rule. When they come back I will be the first to welcome them." —Hanskarl Denk, Sylvanian.

That does not refer to Vlad's time
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Canon also says this:

"Of course, it is not this overt everywhere in Sylvania, and though the instinct to tug the forelock runs deep and wide, there are many in that province who still have not forgotten the true nature of the Vampires. For such people, however, their very fear keeps them equally pacified and controlled. Others have lived so long under a threat constantly shown to be invincible that they give into despair and simply accept their fate. Inevitably, there are few who have the will to resist their predators, and fewer still with the strength to do anything about it, and so the Von Carsteins can feed openly, easily, and without fear. One day, the Von Carsteins believe, all the world will be the same."

Sylvania isn't homogenous. "Many" of them don't feel that draw to the Vampires, but are simply too scared to do anything.
 
And the settlers of those Hunters Hills- in this Eastern Stirland- are mostly former Army veterans from the Expedition. Keen purchasers of carved wooden figures of a certain rider.
That's a County worth at least that won't willingly bend the neck to any vampire.
 
DragonParadox said:
Eh.. we should maybe keep in mind that most of eastern Stirland still curses him behind closed doors. What his legacy is in the long run is very much up to what his daughter manages.
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Please stop making me regret not voting for Sylvania instead of Waystones...
I'm still hoping that any Waystone improvements we get are rolled out in Sylvania!

Codex said:
Sylvania isn't homogenous.
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Sylvania will be homogenous when the iron-toed boot of the Stirlander Army is finished with the place! Kasmir will bury all the vampires so deep in bogs that they'll never be seen again, and the place is so full of anti-Vampire groups and hero types that with enough military support they'll surely manage to quash all the vampire bloodlines, monsters, and vampire/monster supporters eventually! All the people who want to be freed from the constant fear of monster attacks and vampire predation will be freed!

Honestly the biggest obstacle to all that, at this point, is Stirland's attention span. The war is going well, vampire disposal is a science and it can be outsourced to well-defended Dawi Karaks if needed, and IMO unless there's another catastrophe or political shift to force Stirland to recall its armies Abelhelm's legacy is likely to be a successful obliteration of the Vampire threat.
Mods, this isn't calling for genocide because it's not real obliteration, it can all come back the moment someone lets the Vampires revive ;)
 
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Alliterate said:
And the settlers of those Hunters Hills- in this Eastern Stirland- are mostly former Army veterans from the Expedition. Keen purchasers of carved wooden figures of a certain rider.
That's a County worth at least that won't willingly bend the neck to any vampire.
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True, true, though I think Kasimir has the right of it by trying to restore the old Sylvanian gods, to educate the populace on why vampires are not their only hope against the monsters of the night. All that empty land is still more likely to be taken by the descendants of native Sylvanians than by those of Stirlander colonists. On that note one of things I think will help the most is more contact with the outside world and more trade. It is the insularity of the land as much as anything else that let the vampires thrive.

On that note @Boney is there anything that the EIC can do to expand into Sylvania and increase its prosperity (in a way that does not hurt the company's bottom line of course, they are not a charity)?
 
I'm reading through the Vampire Weakness part of Night's Dark Masters and I have to say, the process of getting into the head of a Vampire/Witch Hunter who has to keep these things in mind... it's not pleasant. Vampire hunting has to be one of the most tedious and paranoia driven fields of work out there. Vampires have dozens of weaknesses, but you have no idea beforehand whether said Vampire has that weakness or not because every Vampire is heavily individualistic. There are patterns that can be followed based on Bloodline and Age, but you have to constantly be wary and never trust that you have "one weird trick" to deal with every vampire out there.

Some Vampires are vulnerable to poppy seeds being thrown at them because they have the irresistable urge to start counting them, distracting them from the blow that would kill them. Some of them can't enter a home without invitation. Most don't have shadows or reflection but some do. Most get burnt by the sun but some don't. Most get heavily injured being inside flowing water but some don't. Most are weak to silver but some aren't. Most are weak to holy symbols presented by the faithful but some aren't. Some are warded away by Daemonroot and Witchbane, and while most aren't affected by garlic some of them are.

The only thing that I've found cannot be resisted is magic weapons and items, including those blessed by a priest. Those can't be resisted even by someone with an Unhallowed Soul Blood Gift. It's also good that practically no Vampire out there is immune to every Vampiric weakness.

The Red Thirst also cannot be circumvented by the grand majority. Necrarchs substitute blood feeding with Dhar and Warpstone, but they still have to feed every once in a while. Strigoi subsist off corpses and animals, and they can stave off some of the thirst through hibernation, but they still feed. The only ones who never have to feed are Abhorash and Zacharias, both having killed and drank the blood of a "Great Dragon".
 
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