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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
Oh great. Came across another blister in the timeline. I'm fine with minor issues between different 8th edition army books, but goddamn is this one bad.

Ok, so after Nehekhara falls, Alcazidaar's corpse washes up a river with the Crown of Sorcery in his hand. The timing for this is around -1150 according to the Tomb Kings book. The Shaman of the Lodringen Tribe, Kadon, find the corpse, wears the Crown and gains boosted powers. He found Mourkhain in the area of the Badlands. In Vampire Counts this is definitely the case, and Ushoran, the Strigoi Bloodline progenitor, comes in around -1020 IC, defeats Kadon and expands the kingdom into what is known as Strygos. The Kingdom lasts for, apparently, around 800 years, as the Orcs sack the city around -200 IC. Should be simple right?

Well the Orcs and Goblins book doesn't even corroborate this. It says that Kadon had the Crown of Sorcery around -1175, which in both Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts is when Nagash was still around so it doesn't make sense. The Greenskin book doesn't mention Ushoran and just says that they destroyed Mourkhain around -1000 IC. I'm not longer surprised with GW writers not checking each other's work.

So I'll just quote what Belegar says to make this simple:

Tylos fell around -1780 IC. Nehekhara fell around -1150 IC. Mourkhain rose up a few years later and Ushoran took over -1020 IC. Karak Eight Peaks fell -503 IC, so Strygos had to have fallen somewhere between -1020 IC and -503 IC. There, that's my confusion cleared up.
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Yeah, there's multiple different versions of the Mourkhain/Strygos saga with varying levels of compatibility with each other. That sort of thing is why I started building a personal wiki to record all the chimera timelines and compromises I've decided on so I don't forget it later and come up with and use something completely different - I did that with the King of Barak Varr at one point, deciding at one point the current King was the canonical Byrrnoth and at another that it was still his father until someone pointed it out.

(This all sounds like a nightmare to deal with and I suppose for a lot of people it would be, but it's actually a draw for me because it makes it a lot more like studying actual history where you only have a handful of solid facts and have to consider differing conclusions that can be reached from those data points - it's part of the reason I've been big into oWoD and Shadowrun in the past too, which have similarly long publication histories and resultingly convoluted canons.)

myrix said:
Belegar said, when discussing possibility of working with Laurelorn just after first meeting with Cadaeth in Middenheim:

This presumably means that the Book was taken by the group of Karaz Ghumzul refugees heading for Karaz Ankor with them. Or maybe transferred some indeterminate time after the rest of Karaz Ghumzul dwarfs settled in Middenheim?

It's interesting that the Book and the grudges it records were surrendered to Karaz Ankor while the keys to the sealed hold were not, I would think that the dwarfs would try to keep onto both of them as hard as they can, both are pretty important parts of the hold's inheritance. And it's unexpected of dwarfs to let go of the grudges, can they really be called dwarfs after that? Or is it different with Imperial dwarfs? Do they still track grudges from before they became Imperial, do they level new ones?

Or is that book is just the latest up-to-date copy Karaz Ankor has, from before Karaz Ghumzul seceded, and Karaz Ankor just considers any of the grudges before the secession as part of the legal inheritance the refugees from Karaz Ghumzul brought with them? Like the rights to the hold itself maybe?

Actually, what is the relationship between hold-specific Books of Grudges and the Great Book of Grudges said to hold all grudges against dwarf race? Are former implicitly considered to be parts of the latter? Does that mean Karaz-a-Karak has a copy of Book of Grudges of Karag Dum from before the contact was lost, and any Karaz Ankor dwarf would consider Karag Dum grudges theirs to settle after Karag Dum is declared lost to Chaos?

@Boney Can you clarify any of the above? Does Mathilde know anything about it? Sorry if some of the answers are obvious, I'm not really well-versed in WHF lore.
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Karaz-a-Karak keeps back-up copies of the Books of Grudges for all the Holds of the Karaz Ankor. Even though Karaz Ghumzul seceded, all their Grudges from before that point are still valid and extant, and are inherited by the High King. Books of Grudges are described in some places as being single massive books and in other places as having multiple volumes, so my current working theory is that the Great Book of Grudges is something like a massive index that gives references and summaries to all the extant Grudges that are recounted in greater detail elsewhere, so somewhere in it would be something along the lines of 'with the rebellion of Karaz Ghumzul, their extant Grudges are inherited as recorded in the Karaz Ghumzul Book of Grudges (2320); the most terrible of which are:' and so on. Presumably there is something similar for Karag Dum's, but there'd be debate as to whether and when a cut-off should be for their presumed 'fall'. Grey areas like 'if Borek was killed on the Expedition, do we record it as a Grudge?' and 'does evil performed against Imperial Dwarves get recorded, and if so, by whom?' are matters which are debated and addressed by Loremasters specialized in Grudgelore.
 
Boney said:
Karaz-a-Karak keeps back-up copies of the Books of Grudges for all the Holds of the Karaz Ankor. Even though Karaz Ghumzul seceded, all their Grudges from before that point are still valid and extant, and are inherited by the High King. Books of Grudges are described in some places as being single massive books and in other places as having multiple volumes, so my current working theory is that the Great Book of Grudges is something like a massive index that gives references and summaries to all the extant Grudges that are recounted in greater detail elsewhere, so somewhere in it would be something along the lines of 'with the rebellion of Karaz Ghumzul, their extant Grudges are inherited as recorded in the Karaz Ghumzul Book of Grudges (2320); the most terrible of which are:' and so on. Presumably there is something similar for Karag Dum's, but there'd be debate as to whether and when a cut-off should be for their presumed 'fall'. Grey areas like 'if Borek was killed on the Expedition, do we record it as a Grudge?' and 'does evil performed against Imperial Dwarves get recorded, and if so, by whom?' are matters which are debated and addressed by Loremasters specialized in Grudgelore.
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If the seceeded Karaz Ghumzul dwarves avenged a grudge, would the High King have to accept that grudge is settled, or could he turn around and say that the insult against the KA still exists. If so would this mean grudges have to be settled twice, or just to the satisfaction of whichever party is more severe?
 
Dark as Silver said:
If the seceeded Karaz Ghumzul dwarves avenged a grudge, would the High King have to accept that grudge is settled, or could he turn around and say that the insult against the KA still exists. If so would this mean grudges have to be settled twice, or just to the satisfaction of whichever party is more severe?
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Could go either way, and would be decided with the help of those Grudgelore experts based on the specific circumstances.
 
Boney said:
Karaz-a-Karak keeps back-up copies of the Books of Grudges for all the Holds of the Karaz Ankor. Even though Karaz Ghumzul seceded, all their Grudges from before that point are still valid and extant, and are inherited by the High King. Books of Grudges are described in some places as being single massive books and in other places as having multiple volumes, so my current working theory is that the Great Book of Grudges is something like a massive index that gives references and summaries to all the extant Grudges that are recounted in greater detail elsewhere, so somewhere in it would be something along the lines of 'with the rebellion of Karaz Ghumzul, their extant Grudges are inherited as recorded in the Karaz Ghumzul Book of Grudges (2320); the most terrible of which are:' and so on. Presumably there is something similar for Karag Dum's, but there'd be debate as to whether and when a cut-off should be for their presumed 'fall'. Grey areas like 'if Borek was killed on the Expedition, do we record it as a Grudge?' and 'does evil performed against Imperial Dwarves get recorded, and if so, by whom?' are matters which are debated and addressed by Loremasters specialized in Grudgelore.
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Boney said:
Could go either way, and would be decided with the help of those Grudgelore experts based on the specific circumstances.
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I wonder how much power those "Grudgelore experts" actually have. Considering how important grudgelore is to dawi, their calls give them incredible leverage on the whole society. Then again, Dawi being Dawi, it's likely that most are not actually leveraging their power any, so the question is moot.
 
storryeater said:
I wonder how much power those "Grudgelore experts" actually have. Considering how important grudgelore is to dawi, their calls give them incredible leverage on the whole society. Then again, Dawi being Dawi, it's likely that most are not actually leveraging their power any, so the question is moot.
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In theory quite a lot and if they chose to use it maliciously or to further their own interests they could get quite a lot of stuff done, but that is really part and parcel to the dwarfs are bad at intrigue thing. A lot of their society works on an unusual amount of trust by human standards.
 
"Karaz Ghumzul rebelled," he growls, "and closed their gates to a Throng that went on to march with empty bellies and blunted axes to their doom at the hands of exiled Elgi sorcerers. And when the Time of Woes taught them the true, bitter taste of independence, they abandoned their Hold and sent their own starving children on a march across a ruined continent to beg for food and shelter from the Empire they betrayed while they used their riches to buy a place among the Umgi.
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First, the descendants of ancient Dawi treason live fat, happy lives within Middenheim. There are many wrongs that must be punished before their own inherited sins are a priority for the Karaz Ankor, but they still hold the keys to Karaz Ghumzul.
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This whole discussion from Thorek was so interesting. It's clear that he despises what the dwarves of Karaz Ghumzul did and feels that their descendants have "inherited sins" but at the same time even he has to admit that they have "fat, happy lives". No matter how much he tries to make it sound like a curse. We haven't really had much cause to interact with Imperial Dwarves in the quest, but it would be interesting at some point to see how much grudges are built-in to their brain chemistry and how much is cultural. Sure humans aren't the most forgiving people out there... except next to dwarves they are. What does it do to their psychology to live next to neighbors who can let shit go and often be better off for doing so? How many Imperial dwarves have in a dark moment looked down at some family grudge ledger and then in a fit of rage thrown it into a fire, declaring that their children don't need that shit, shouldn't have to worry about it?

I expect the dwarves of Middenheim won't want to give up the keys to Karaz Ghumzul, because it's nice to dream and hold on to a legacy you think could be yours one day in the far-off future. But I suspect they may not fight quite as hard as Thorek would assume they will.
 
Somewhat off topic, but it occurs to me to ask: Have they finally managed to get silk production with the We working yet? It's been years.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
30 is supposed to be the upper limit for ordinary humans so Steam Tank inventor and WH Renaissance man Leonardo da Miragliano would only be marginally better at Learning. Alkharad was what 32?
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Alkharad had 34:
Boney said:
[Alkharad's magical spot check: Learning, 17+34=51.]
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I keep forgetting how good a learning stat of 29 actually is. We're three times smarter than the average person (in a group of specific and highly niche subjects).
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Strictly speaking, if we had opposed learning rolls, it would be 1d100+29 vs 1d100+10, for a difference of 19 points, and that leads to about a 67-1-32 in terms of Win-Tie-Loss percentages. So even though her score is three times greater, she'd only win rolls at a 2-1 rate. In other words, she's only slightly more than twice as smart :V

Rukia said:
Somewhat off topic, but it occurs to me to ask: Have they finally managed to get silk production with the We working yet? It's been years.
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Boney said:
Mathilde declined at every stage to take roles that would oversee managing the economic output of the We, and ensured that they were able to learn and adapt at their own pace instead of directly interfacing with society as livestock-to-silk transformers. This meant that the matter was left in the hands of Edda who has well-known difficulties interacting with non-Dwarves and prefers to stick to traditional Dwarven industries, and since the We are still largely independent there's no urgent impetus to figure it out. In Dwarven Princess Quest that might be a valid example of how long term projects go, but not here.
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There was a bit of discussion on it if you want to follow that quote chain back up, but the short answer is nope.
 
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The Lady Knight Witch Rides 2: Shadows over Lorelim
  • Apocrypha
    • Back cover blurb on a pristine copy of The Knightly Witch Rides 2: Shadows over Lorelim, sitting on an exquisitely crafted nightstand.

    Tensions rising between the northern Provinces, KNIGHT LADY MAGDA WESSEN, genius POLYMATH, friend to GODS and PARAGON of WITCHSIGHT has travelled far from her mountain home and love. Responding to the PROPOSITION from the SEDUCTIVE SYLPH CÆURTH, Magda has entered her GLADE to treat with the WOOD ELVES of LORELIM, whom she believes are pivotal to the brewing conflict.

    MAGDA finds herself ENSNARED in the byzantine local politics through the impassioned APPEAL of the beautiful QUEEN MARILITH, pressed by factions within and BEASTMEN without. Complicating matters is the return of the DEBONAIR and enigmatic VON HEARTSMANN, brilliant LIGHT WIZARD to Magdas SHADOW. Magda cannot be certain of his LOYALTIES, even as she once more finds herself INTRIGUED by his skill and insight. Her trusted companion and RIGHT HAND, golden JURGEN THE GLIB finds his own eye turned by an athletic ELVEN EXEMPLAR, diverting his focus when Magda needs him most.

    Caught between CÆURTH, MARILITH and VON HEARTSMANN, uncertain of her allies, in an unfamiliar environment, will Magda's PURE HEART, unrivalled WITCHSIGHT and MIGHTY MHORNBLADE cut through this political web and maintain her purpose? Can she resolve the IMPERIAL TENSIONS, and perhaps UNLOCK the MAGICAL SECRETS at the HEART of Lorelim? Most of all, will Magda find her way back to her faraway JADE LOVER, with these TEMPTING examples of MAGICAL PUISSANCE all around?

    Not greatly pleased with this one, most feels somewhat laboured, but I recall someone mentioning they missed these, some time back. The title/subtitle in particular seems uninspired, because it was. Normally the better ones flow naturally and immediately when I read the particular inspiring passage or comment, here it was less focused, really only the opening coming from the last page or two of... familiar-sounding, effusive praise for our protagonist. ;)
     
    Last edited:
  • Apocrypha
    • Alliterate said:
    Back cover blurb on a pristine copy of The Lady Knight Witch Rides 2: Shadows over Lorelim, sitting on an exquisitely crafted table.

    Tensions rising between the northern Provinces, KNIGHT LADY MAGDA WESSEN, genius POLYMATH, friend to GODS and PARAGON of WITCHSIGHT has travelled far from her mountain home and love. Responding FAVOURABLY to the PROPOSITION from the seductive sylph CÆURTH, Magda has entered her GLADE to treat with the WOOD ELVES of LORELIM, who she believes are pivotal to the brewing conflict.

    MAGDA finds herself ENSNARED in the byzantine local politics through the APPEAL of the beautiful QUEEN MARILITH, pressed by factions within and BEASTMEN without. Another wildcard is the debonaire VON HEARTSMAN, LIGHT WIZARD to MAGDAS SHADOW. Magda cannot be certain of his LOYALTIES, even as she finds herself INTRIGUED by his skill and insight. Her trusty companion and right hand, golden JURGEN THE GLIB, finds his own eye turned by an athletic ELVEN EXEMPLAR, diverting his focus whe she needs him most.

    Caught between CÆURTH, MARILITH and VON HEARTSMAN, uncertain of her allies, in an unfamiliar environment, will her PURE HEART, unrivalled WITCHSIGHT and MIGHTY MHORNBLADE cut through this through this political web and maintain her purpose? Can MAGDA resolve the IMPERIAL TENSIONS, and perhaps UNLOCK the MAGICAL SECRETS at the HEART of Lorelim? Most of all, will MAGDA find her way back to her faraway JADE LOVER, with these TEMPTING examples of MAGICAL PUISSANCE all around?

    Not greatly pleased with this one, most feels somewhat laboured, but I recall someone mentioning they missed these, some time back. Normally they flow naturally and immediately when I read the particular inspiring passage or comment, here it was less focused, really only the opening coming from the last page or two of... familiar-sounding, effusive praise for our protagonist. :)
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    The worst part is the only thing separating this from an actual generic piece of tat in a bookstore in the real world is the Capitalization.
     
    Briefvoice said:
    This whole discussion from Thorek was so interesting. It's clear that he despises what the dwarves of Karaz Ghumzul did and feels that their descendants have "inherited sins" but at the same time even he has to admit that they have "fat, happy lives". No matter how much he tries to make it sound like a curse. We haven't really had much cause to interact with Imperial Dwarves in the quest, but it would be interesting at some point to see how much grudges are built-in to their brain chemistry and how much is cultural. Sure humans aren't the most forgiving people out there... except next to dwarves they are. What does it do to their psychology to live next to neighbors who can let shit go and often be better off for doing so? How many Imperial dwarves have in a dark moment looked down at some family grudge ledger and then in a fit of rage thrown it into a fire, declaring that their children don't need that shit, shouldn't have to worry about it?

    I expect the dwarves of Middenheim won't want to give up the keys to Karaz Ghumzul, because it's nice to dream and hold on to a legacy you think could be yours one day in the far-off future. But I suspect they may not fight quite as hard as Thorek would assume they will.
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    This stuff is like catnip to me. I'm currently drunk and don't know how to express myself, but I definitely like what you're saying. I feel empathy both with this as an idea an IRL person can express about WH lore, and for the IC Imperial Dwarves who actually felt and acted this way.
     
    A peek at something that might become significant in the long term:



    There is a candidate behind each question mark. Over time you might hear about distant events that could indicate who they are and how they're going.
     
    Boney said:
    A peek at something that might become significant in the long term:



    There is a candidate behind each question mark. Over time you might hear about distant events that could indicate who they are and how they're going.
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    Well, that's ominous, I'm not gonna lie.

    (Honestly, not sure how it might become significant, unless the quest ends first)
     
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