I think Ogres are purely divine casters?
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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I don't think so. The Empire of Sigmar was too hostile to magic from its inception. I suspect a more powerful Haletha/Hedgewise would end up with a separate nation rather than being integrated.
I don't think it's even known if the Great Maw is actually a god. The Ogres could be pulling an Orcs & Goblins and messing with an energy they produce, rather than a divine one. Or it could be entirely winds-based.
Codex
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In 8th Edition Army Book, Slaughtermasters and Butchers, the spellcasters, can cast from the Lore of the Great Maw, Heavens, Beasts and Death. Firebellies, priests who worship the Fire Mouth (a powerful volcano) can cast from the Lore of Fire.
I don't think Kragg will trust an elf over Mathilde no matter how much more polished an elf seviroscope would be.
Mathilde exists in the zone of 'If she were a Runesmith she'd be good enough to take her as an apprentice' which the vast majority of Dawi failed to reach, elves exist in the zone of 'Well at least they aren't grobi but they're certainly not to be trusted with anything of importance.'
We might, though I do not think it would be as easy as just making the goddess more powerful. If their tradition was legal then they could spend more time developing it to greater highs. It was after all a long road filled with study and with dead ends between the first Priests of Nehekara and the Mortuary Cult of Nagash's time which could use the winds.
Codex
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A reminder that Boney said this before:
At least seven other branches exist that are either secular or worship a different god, like the Cunning Folk in Middenland worshipping Ranald. I don't think the Hedge relies on gods, it uses the "conceptual border between reality and the Hedge", whatever that means, and seems to hold similarities to Grey Magic, which seems to be the reason so many of them joined the Colleges when they were formed.
There are multiple branches of the Hedgefolk, and only the inhabitants of the Forest of Shadows worship Haletha because she's a localised goddess. Those Hedgefolk are the Ostlanders, who are dying out, and the Nordlanders, who are keeping an eye on the forest.
At least seven other branches exist that are either secular or worship a different god, like the Cunning Folk in Middenland worshipping Ranald. I don't think the Hedge relies on gods, it uses the "conceptual border between reality and the Hedge", whatever that means, and seems to hold similarities to Grey Magic, which seems to be the reason so many of them joined the Colleges when they were formed.
Well, now I'm really curious what spells are in the Hedgefolk spellbooks, because I doubt all of them got carried over to the grey collage.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
They're in Shades of Empire.
Nagash initially built the Black Pyramid to suck in the Winds and concentrate it to the degree he needed for his development of Necromancy.
It seems possible that he was basing that on existing practices of the Mortuary Cult but at greater scale.
Ah, I was actually meaning to speak from a hypothetical "if the Empire had developed differently..." perspective rather than a "If we start empowering Haletha, could we..." fashion.
Just imagining an Empire where more divine magic and land-based-magic traditions were more strongly dominant in the culture and organization of the nation itself.
Speculating on what an alt-Empire might look like, basically.
I do want to get Kragg himself involved in this project too, yes...
After all, Kragg and Azul's runesmiths were both able to contribute to the creation of the Eye of Gazul. Why couldn't they also find ways to contribute to a project as lengthy and ambitious and large as this one?
I don't know if I'd tempt him with an Elf-made seviroscope though. Perhaps rather with the secrets of the Elf-Dwarf coordination that led to the creation of Bok.
I'd rather have our Colleges of Magic create the Seviroscope itself instead.
... Actually, how much College Favor do we have? *checks* Just 6. Damn. Well, that can go up higher if we write some good books... But it would be much nicer if we could figure out how to turn our Aethyric Vitae into a constant drip of College Favor too. That way we could have more liquidity Favor around, so to speak.
Anyway. I was wondering if we could use a Great Deed or College Favor to commission a Seviroscope for Kragg to tempt him in. Or maybe make it ourselves. Or something.
Like I said -- if Kragg and the Azulite Runesmiths could both contribute to creating the Eye of Gazul, then there ought to be room enough on the Waystones project too. Right?
Perhaps we could even tempt Kragg with the potential possibility of flexing on Thorek in the realm of Waystones too.
Isn't Mathilde as good as Volans when it comes to Windsight and also quite good at enchanting?
There's probably not a lot of people who could do a better job than ourselves at trying to make a Seviroscope.
I think the main thing is making it with more winds and spending a lot longer on it, which is the reason I would like an elf to do it, possibly with Kragg runing it too somehow.
Codex
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Oh great. Came across another blister in the timeline. I'm fine with minor issues between different 8th edition army books, but goddamn is this one bad.
Ok, so after Nehekhara falls, Alcazidaar's corpse washes up a river with the Crown of Sorcery in his hand. The timing for this is around -1150 according to the Tomb Kings book. The Shaman of the Lodringen Tribe, Kadon, find the corpse, wears the Crown and gains boosted powers. He found Mourkhain in the area of the Badlands. In Vampire Counts this is definitely the case, and Ushoran, the Strigoi Bloodline progenitor, comes in around -1020 IC, defeats Kadon and expands the kingdom into what is known as Strygos. The Kingdom lasts for, apparently, around 800 years, as the Orcs sack the city around -200 IC. Should be simple right?
Well the Orcs and Goblins book doesn't even corroborate this. It says that Kadon had the Crown of Sorcery around -1175, which in both Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts is when Nagash was still around so it doesn't make sense. The Greenskin book doesn't mention Ushoran and just says that they destroyed Mourkhain around -1000 IC. I'm not longer surprised with GW writers not checking each other's work.
So I'll just quote what Belegar says to make this simple:
Ok, so after Nehekhara falls, Alcazidaar's corpse washes up a river with the Crown of Sorcery in his hand. The timing for this is around -1150 according to the Tomb Kings book. The Shaman of the Lodringen Tribe, Kadon, find the corpse, wears the Crown and gains boosted powers. He found Mourkhain in the area of the Badlands. In Vampire Counts this is definitely the case, and Ushoran, the Strigoi Bloodline progenitor, comes in around -1020 IC, defeats Kadon and expands the kingdom into what is known as Strygos. The Kingdom lasts for, apparently, around 800 years, as the Orcs sack the city around -200 IC. Should be simple right?
Well the Orcs and Goblins book doesn't even corroborate this. It says that Kadon had the Crown of Sorcery around -1175, which in both Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts is when Nagash was still around so it doesn't make sense. The Greenskin book doesn't mention Ushoran and just says that they destroyed Mourkhain around -1000 IC. I'm not longer surprised with GW writers not checking each other's work.
So I'll just quote what Belegar says to make this simple:
Tylos fell around -1780 IC. Nehekhara fell around -1150 IC. Mourkhain rose up a few years later and Ushoran took over -1020 IC. Karak Eight Peaks fell -503 IC, so Strygos had to have fallen somewhere between -1020 IC and -503 IC. There, that's my confusion cleared up.
I wonder if elves experience their Aethyric perception synesthetically in the way humans do. After all, while for humans this ability appears to be a mutation induced prenatally be the Winds of Magic, elves were apparently designed to be sensitive to Aethyric energies by the Old Ones. Do elves, perhaps, just have an additional sense on top of the physical ones that their brains are able to process, rather than it being perceived through one of their physical senses.
Perhaps, for an elf, the very concept of a Seviriscope wouldn't make much sense - like trying to smell a colour for a non-synesthetic person.
Perhaps, for an elf, the very concept of a Seviriscope wouldn't make much sense - like trying to smell a colour for a non-synesthetic person.
Belegar said, when discussing possibility of working with Laurelorn just after first meeting with Cadaeth in Middenheim:
It's interesting that the Book and the grudges it records were surrendered to Karaz Ankor while the keys to the sealed hold were not, I would think that the dwarfs would try to keep onto both of them as hard as they can, both are pretty important parts of the hold's inheritance. And it's unexpected of dwarfs to let go of the grudges, can they really be called dwarfs after that? Or is it different with Imperial dwarfs? Do they still track grudges from before they became Imperial, do they level new ones?
Or is that book is just the latest up-to-date copy Karaz Ankor has, from before Karaz Ghumzul seceded, and Karaz Ankor just considers any of the grudges before the secession as part of the legal inheritance the refugees from Karaz Ghumzul brought with them? Like the rights to the hold itself maybe?
Actually, what is the relationship between hold-specific Books of Grudges and the Great Book of Grudges said to hold all grudges against dwarf race? Are former implicitly considered to be parts of the latter? Does that mean Karaz-a-Karak has a copy of Book of Grudges of Karag Dum from before the contact was lost, and any Karaz Ankor dwarf would consider Karag Dum grudges theirs to settle after Karag Dum is declared lost to Chaos?
@Boney Can you clarify any of the above? Does Mathilde know anything about it? Sorry if some of the answers are obvious, I'm not really well-versed in WHF lore.
This presumably means that the Book was taken by the group of Karaz Ghumzul refugees heading for Karaz Ankor with them. Or maybe transferred some indeterminate time after the rest of Karaz Ghumzul dwarfs settled in Middenheim?
It's interesting that the Book and the grudges it records were surrendered to Karaz Ankor while the keys to the sealed hold were not, I would think that the dwarfs would try to keep onto both of them as hard as they can, both are pretty important parts of the hold's inheritance. And it's unexpected of dwarfs to let go of the grudges, can they really be called dwarfs after that? Or is it different with Imperial dwarfs? Do they still track grudges from before they became Imperial, do they level new ones?
Or is that book is just the latest up-to-date copy Karaz Ankor has, from before Karaz Ghumzul seceded, and Karaz Ankor just considers any of the grudges before the secession as part of the legal inheritance the refugees from Karaz Ghumzul brought with them? Like the rights to the hold itself maybe?
Actually, what is the relationship between hold-specific Books of Grudges and the Great Book of Grudges said to hold all grudges against dwarf race? Are former implicitly considered to be parts of the latter? Does that mean Karaz-a-Karak has a copy of Book of Grudges of Karag Dum from before the contact was lost, and any Karaz Ankor dwarf would consider Karag Dum grudges theirs to settle after Karag Dum is declared lost to Chaos?
@Boney Can you clarify any of the above? Does Mathilde know anything about it? Sorry if some of the answers are obvious, I'm not really well-versed in WHF lore.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Oh, you're going to have fun if you're getting into the Mourkain timelines.
The timeline of the rise and fall of Mourkain and Strygos appear in 4 or 5 different books, and none of them agree with each other.
Mathilde is very good at Windsight. I doubt there's any wizard substantially better alive today. But Volans whole deal was being amazingly good at windsight (and also an incredibly patient fucker, not ever touching the winds across decades). Volans might've been around as good as Mathilde, but I would guess he was better, through sheer experience (excepting divine magic, where I think Mathilde does beat him out).
Mathilde is pretty good at enchanting for someone who doesn't specialise in it, but she's not actually done all that much enchanting, so again a specialist will beat her out.
But yes, the combination of very strong windsight (which is very easy to show, being visual), a strong basis in enchanting and a broad knowledge of wind interaction (the windherding trait) make her a really good candidate. She's also got the experience and connections to pull in others to refine her work if it's necessary.
Volans could do things with Witchsight that Mathilde can't, such as look at someone's soul and know if they're capable of learning magic.
There are also apparently other Magisters who can do things with Witchsight she can't. She can't (yet?) read people's surface thoughts off their soul or see echoes of their past actions or potential futures just by looking at them.
She's very much focused on Witchsight as Windsight, seeing the Winds rather than other Aethyrically related phenomena.
There are also apparently other Magisters who can do things with Witchsight she can't. She can't (yet?) read people's surface thoughts off their soul or see echoes of their past actions or potential futures just by looking at them.
She's very much focused on Witchsight as Windsight, seeing the Winds rather than other Aethyrically related phenomena.
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Sir_Travelsalot
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...Isn't that literally what we did with Eike, once Mathilde got hints from what she was saying to actually scrutinize it?
I suspect a lot of those are related traits, and not sheer windsight prowess. It has the same feel as Mathilde's Avatar trait.
- Location
- Utrecht
Those are actually Azyr specific.
Not quite. She noticed Eike was reacting to something that correlated to magic use, and then tested for causation.
Of course, Volans might well have done something similar, and the story grew in the telling.
The "reading surface thoughts" might just be a cold reading buffed by reading emotions with windsight.
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The reading of surface thoughts is apparently done by direct observation of the soul, not how the Winds react to the soul, for what it's worth.
also a passage that says:
Going on to say:
Not to my knowledge. Witchsight doesn't use a Wind, as Volans' example demonstrates.
also a passage that says:
Some people with the most developed witchsight are able to see the entire world even without their eyes, perceiving with perfect clarity the souls, thoughts, and intentions of all living beings around them, seeing how magic swirls around and through them and all other things in the world
Going on to say:
Those with it are surrounded by a world of swirling magical colours, plainly visible thoughts, dreams, and nightmares, flashes of future and past events, auras, and any number of other arcane and bizarre visions.
Not to my knowledge. Witchsight doesn't use a Wind, as Volans' example demonstrates.
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- Location
- Utrecht
I'm not picklepikkl... but I seem to remember something (either in the chapters where we dealt with Hubert, or with Maria Strossel) that to those attuned to Azyr, sometimes their mage sight carries hints of the future.
But I could be mistaken.
My guess why Mathilde doesn't see the future in every patch of Azyr/Shysh that she sees, is because that requires the wind to be in her brain, and her brainmeats are full of Ulgu, and so repel Azyr/Shysh.
Edit:nope, can't find it.
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