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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Chlof said:
I think you might just be underestimating how long ingrained responses can last here, tbh. I haven't set foot in a church since I was eleven and yet I still have christianisms I can't remember learning floating around in my head.
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I know how to recite all the prayers needed to make the full five prayers a day to God (Islam not christianity) and I haven't prayed in 3-5 years (time blurs). I know how ingrained those things are, but I'm in an environment where keeping up appearances is important and it's not instantaneous. I also remember exactly where I learnt those gestures and from who, and I learnt it at about the same age as Mathilde left her village.

EDIT: Honestly Mathilde knowing the prayers isn't the biggest evidence for his power, it's that everyone knows the prayers, even if they live in hills that never suffer floods. That's weird.
 
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Alliterate said:
Well, duh. There's your answer. ;) They know the rituals and thus never suffer floods.
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But if there are no floods, then why would they respect the Flood God? They would start to lose their faith in him, so he has to flood them to get them to respect him again, then they start praying, and when floods no longer happen, they lose their faith and he floods them again etc.

There is no Flood God if there are no Floods. Unless they somehow maintain their faith in him despite never suffering a flood in their entire life, which would be quite admirable.
 
Maybe we're looking at another slumming Elven God with a fake moustache and wig.

Though I think the more likely links are to those persistent Sylvanian swamp gods.
 
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Boney said:
You could picture it so perfectly in your mind: you appear standing on Deathfang's neck, sword already mid-swing, and you take the Daemon's head neatly off its shoulders. You save Deathfang, Asarnil pledges eternal friendship, Deathfang shares some juicy dragon secrets, happy ending for everyone but the Tempter. The Daemon has other ideas. In an instant its talons are out of Deathfang's neck and catching Branulhune in mid-air, and though daemonic ichor spills forth, it manages to arrest the swing of the runic blade. It catches your gaze in its own, and in a moment you know that it was capable of offering you any pleasure imaginable and some that weren't, but all it was willing to grant you was pain.

With one talon clutching Branulhune, a second fending off Asarnil's Ithilmar blade, and its body writhing to avoid Deathfang's massive talons, it somehow manages to spare enough attention to craft a spell. With a scornful glare and a flick of its wrist silvery shards shoot out at you and you're barely able to sway backwards in time to avoid whatever they are, though you manage to wrest Branulhune from its grip as you do so. This gives it the opportunity to turn its full attention on Asarnil and it takes it with savage glee, and an outraged howl echoes across the battlefield as its claws close on nothing but air as Asarnil's silhouette blurs.

That's when a ball of pure-white energy strikes the Daemon's back right where Max's spell-bolt had struck previously, blowing a massive hole through its torso. The Daemon sways in place for a moment, blinking and frowning in confusion, before melting away into rapidly-evaporating ichor. You lower Branulhune, torn between being impressed, grateful, and upset at the sudden intervention of Hysh, before you remember that the rest of the battle is still ongoing. You turn your attention to the fortifications and see that Ruprecht's exhortations has spurred the Winter Wolves into a full-blown countercharge, and the Daemonettes are falling back from the wall of stone as battlecries and shouted prayers to Ulric rise above the din. Then the Daemons follow their leader's example and begin to dissolve one by one, and in moments all that remains is Dwarven bodies and Daemonic ichor.
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So let me summarize the chain of events here:

1) We clogged the waystone up north to prevent the Tempter's Daemons from drawing on it to fuel their portal scheme, and rolled a 6 on the result, causing them to come back after days and the explosion of magic to be so severe that all twelve Wizards, an elf and a dragon all winced at it from tens of miles aways. This allowed us to fortify a ways away on the road to Kislev to prevent them from getting sacrifices and dwarves spending days to fortify are a nightmare. Combine that with the explosion, which according to Boney made it even harder for the Daemons to spellcast since they're made of warpstuff, and we got very lucky there.

2)We got lucky and rolled a 6 again for the status of the Daemons, resulting in Khornate, Tzeentch and Slaanesh forces all fighting each other since they were summoned to end the siege and were screwed over by the forcible reentry into the material world. The fact we chose to fortify a ways away was a godsend because it led to them fighting each other instead of ganging up on us right outside the gates.

3) We messed up with our casting of Miasma but crit the handling role and canonballed the illusion the Higher Daemon was casting and distracted it with a snarl of miscast magic, dispelling the illusion early and taking away the shock factor of them being revealed inside our lines. Unfortunately our Slayers were squashed even with Miasma support, but it was still a very fortunate turn of events.

4) Despite having fought Khornate and Tzeentch forces, despite suffering a point blank magical explosion that weakened its magical power, despite being assaulted by a horrifying tangle of miscast magic and ambushed by the eldest and most powerful awake Star Dragon of Caledor and one of the most powerful Elf Warriors in the world wielding the legendary artifact of Caledor Dragontamer, despite having three separate Wizards counterspelling it, despite being ambushed by a teleporting Grey Wizard with one of the most powerful Runic Weapons of the modern era with the force of a canonball. This Higher Daemon somehow stopped Mathilde's sword swing, dodged Asarnil's attacks, wounded Deathfang while avoiding his strikes, and still had the time to cast a spell to shoot silver shards on Mathilde and then attack Asarnil before it was surprised attacked by Banishment, a Battle Magic wielded by one of the most talented Magisters of the Light Order alongside three talented Choir members, on the same spot that Max's Silver Bolt struck. Only then did it fall.

Man am I glad we overprepped the hell out of this expedition. I don't want to think about what would have happened without all the preparations, allies and luck we got.
 
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IronFist said:
Banishment, actually
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Huh. You're right. I thought Burning Gaze was one hit and assumed they did it because it's the easiest battle magic so would be simpler to cast, but they went with Banishment, one of the hardest spells to cast in the Lore of Light (casting number for overcasting not included). Horstmann must have been doing the heavy lifting there, but that ups my estimation of his skills.
 
Boney said:
He nods. "I think we've grown too used to predictable foes, the Orcs of Iron Rock and the Dragon Ogres of Thunder Mountain. That's why back in the Empire, only half of us would be on guard duty at any one time, and the other half would be out striking down the enemies of man. Beastmen one week, cultists the next, and Forest Goblins after that. But ever since we settled down in Ulrikadrin the only time we've done anything but skirmish with the neighbouring brutes is during the battles at Karak Eight Peaks."

You nod. "There's only so much drilling and skirmishes can do. But that might be unavoidable. You don't have an entire province to fight across any more."

"We might," he says. "There's been rumblings from Barak Varr about Mad Dog Pass - it's the last of the southern passes that isn't controlled by the Dwarves, so it's the destination of choice for those that would rather take their chances than pay the Dwarves their cut. But that much wealth attracts the wrong sort of attention, and there's rumours of bandit-kingdoms along the Howling River. And it's a very small step from bandit to pirate, and Barak Varr definitely doesn't like that sort of thing. It was just talk when we left, but after Karak Vlag I've been thinking about it a lot."

You frown, consulting a mental map. "With Karak Vlag back, Mad Dog Pass would be the only overland route to the east outside of Dwarven control."

"And they last had that level of control, I've heard, before the birth of the Empire."

"Long before," you say with a nod. "Karak Norn was founded by the Clans that once watched over the Silver Road and Mad Dog Pass."

"And that could be where the Winter Wolves fit in. Mad Dog Pass is the only Pass without a major Dwarfhold on it. Seems better suited to being watched over by cavalry than by Dwarves on foot."

"That would put you in close proximity with Night Goblins and Forest Goblins. There's your unpredictable foes."

"Bloody Spear and Black Spider tribes," he says, nodding. "That way we have a chance to still be Knights in a few generations, rather than monks with puppies or feudal lords with pretensions."

"You wouldn't be the only ones to benefit. If the Dwarves took a cut of every caravan from Ind and Cathay... well, even Dwarven vaults would be swelled by that."
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I'm having a closer look at this interaction now that we just had that update about the mobilisation of the Karaz Ankor. The Watchtower clans existed before the Empire did, watching over Silver Road and Mad Dog Pass and enforced Dwarf control over routes to the Far East, and Karak Norn and the Grey Mountains is full of them. Thorgrim's plan is to restore these clans, and Barak Varr's is to maintain control over the Howling River with a Border Princedom that is aligned to them. I have a decent idea what kinds of troops would be mobilised.

First, the Undumgi. Most of the Undumgi are perfectly happy to retire to a (relatively) peaceful life watching over Death Pass, some in the Gunnery School and some working under Soizic, and some are injured, old or just weary enough that they're looking to set up shop and prop up the economic strength of Karag Nar and fill their pockets through trade. But some of them might be young and adventurous enough, and high off their success in K8P that they might pursue further ventures in the Howling River, and they're quite trusted by Dwarves. There are also Border Prince Mercenaries that fought in the reclamation of K8P, they're not as trustworthy but they might also be involved. Obviously Barak Varr mercenaries are gonna be there, and so will Braganza's Besiegers and Gretel with them since they've been on retainer at BV for a while now.

The final piece is of course Ruprecht Wulfhart the Younger and the Winter Wolves. Ruprecht is a young and ambitious man who seems quite determined to make his way in the world separate from his father's shadow, and he seems discontent with the peaceful agrarian lifestyle Ulrikadrin is going through. It's prosperous and full of trade, but that must rankle with the more "wild" Ulricans who joined the Knightly Order to smite Ulric's enemies. This is a great area for them to concentrate their efforts and "sharpen their claws" so to speak, and also a place for Wulfhart Jr. to prove himself further. Best of luck to him and Gretel.
 
Codex said:
4) Despite having fought Khornate and Tzeentch forces, despite suffering a point blank magical explosion that weakened its magical power, despite being assaulted by a horrifying tangle of miscast magic and ambushed by the eldest and most powerful awake Star Dragon of Caledor and one of the most powerful Elf Warriors in the world wielding the legendary artifact of Caledor Dragontamer, despite having three separate Wizards counterspelling it, despite being ambushed by a teleporting Grey Wizard with one of the most powerful Runic Weapons of the modern era with the force of a canonball. This Higher Daemon somehow stopped Mathilde's sword swing, dodged Asarnil's attacks, wounded Deathfang while avoiding his strikes, and still had the time to cast a spell to shoot silver shards on Mathilde and then attack Asarnil before it was surprised attacked by Banishment, a Battle Magic wielded by one of the most talented Magisters of the Light Order alongside three talented Choir members, on the same spot that Max's Silver Bolt struck. Only then did it fall.

Man am I glad we overprepped the hell out of this expedition. I don't want to think about what would have happened without all the preparations, allies and luck we got.
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Greater demons, the raid boss's of Warhammer.

and to think, there are even tougher stuff out there. (Lore wise anyways)
 
So I've been thinking about Laurelorn and decided to play some devil's advocate.

We've heard from some of the elves that humans have been taking too much of the forest. Certainly one side of the argument is that here are these Nordlanders here to live on our land and take our stuff. On the other hand I'd expect that there are also a number of benefits since both Laurelorn and Nordland share mutual enemies and benefit from trade. I fully expect the obvious towns take a lot of heat in attracting enemies such Norscan and Druchii raiders and beastmen warherds. This is a very similar strategy that Athel Loren uses to great effect where they utilize Bretonnia as an effective meat shield against their enemies.

Also looking at the map the towns also seem to have focused on the hills (Oldenlitz, Schlaghugel, Zweedorf, Reilen all are located near what appears hilly terrain) rather than forest.

According to the map they've left the coastal settlements mostly alone so Hargendorf, Dietershafen and Neues Emskrank are still there to attract attention and work as effective lures.

Basically we've heard a lot from a number of elves, but it's not like they'd want to point out how the resources the human settlements are taking are those that Laurelorn wouldn't be utilizing anyway, or how the settlements work as effective defense against their enemies.

Certainly if the Nordland nobles are smart they'll be quick to do their best to point these sorts of things out. If they're lucky there might actually be an increase in beastmen problems due to there being less towns to draw attention. If nothing else it sounds fairly plausible which is a good starting point to create goodwill. What could be better for those nobles than having Laurelorn admit that the Nordland towns are a good thing for Laurelorn and even actively contribute to building more, as unlikely as that sounds right now.
 
WorldSlayer said:
Certainly if the Nordland nobles are smart they'll be quick to do their best to point these sorts of things out. If they're lucky there might actually be an increase in beastmen problems due to there being less towns to draw attention. If nothing else it sounds fairly plausible which is a good starting point to create goodwill. What could be better for those nobles than having Laurelorn admit that the Nordland towns are a good thing for Laurelorn and even actively contribute to building more, as unlikely as that sounds right now.
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The Norlanders were quite literally killing the Waytrees that help keep the world from going to hell. There is no amount of beastman distraction that will make up for that because in this instance the humans were literally doing the beastmen's work for them.
 
WorldSlayer said:
Also looking at the map the towns also seem to have focused on the hills (Oldenlitz, Schlaghugel, Zweedorf, Reilen all are located near what appears hilly terrain) rather than forest.
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Just on this point, just because those hills aren't forested now doesn't mean that they weren't before humans settled the area and chopped the trees down.
 
Boney said:
"I trust you will accept cows in place of tea, Shadowed Shaman of the Mountain Ring Clans," he says, and you nod to him. He's quite different to the Amber Wizards you're used to, but then the Kurgan live much closer to nature than the citizens of Altdorf, so perhaps they see little need to distance themselves from the mannerisms of their people.
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I quite like the Untamed Shaman of the Dolgan. He really is not what I expected, very polite and respectful. Sure part of that might be that the believes us to be a Norscan, and part of that might be because Mathilde is a "Shaman" like him, but it is quite nice to see Amber Wizards outside the Empire who are so different to the stereotypes about them.

You would expect the Dolgan diplomat to be a Shaman of another Wind more conducive to diplomacy like Shadow or Light, but they have a different way of seeing things.
 
DragonParadox said:
The Norlanders were quite literally killing the Waytrees that help keep the world from going to hell. There is no amount of beastman distraction that will make up for that because in this instance the humans were literally doing the beastmen's work for them.
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I feel you are overstating the importance of the Waytrees, and also did the humans know what the Waytrees actually are? Or did they just see yet another natural, exploitable resource and like like any normal person would? And now they are being murdered for the crime of chopping down a tree.

Look, the Empire might be corrupt, but there are multiple diplomatic channels the elves could have used to resolve this situation decades ago. But the Eonir chose to use none of them, instead just ignoring the problem until it reached breaking point and then they responded with force. The elves are not blameless here. The whole thing is a territory dispute, but one side refused to negotiate until after blades were drawn and blood was spilled.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I feel you are overstating the importance of the Waytrees, and also did the humans know what the Waytrees actually are? Or did they just see yet another natural, exploitable resource and like like any normal person would? And now they are being murdered for the crime of chopping down a tree.

Look, the Empire might be corrupt, but there are multiple diplomatic channels the elves could have used to resolve this situation decades ago. But the Eonir chose to use none of them, instead just ignoring the problem until it reached breaking point and then they responded with force. The elves are not blameless here. The whole thing is a territory dispute, but one side refused to negotiate until after blades were drawn and blood was spilled.
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From my view Nordland's attitude is as:

It's like that neighbor who every day adjusts the fence 1 inch closer to your house for more lawn space and occasionally steals your flowers and apples from your apple tree. Or that guy who occasionally sends you ads about things you really don't care about but is alright the other 50% of the time so you can't exactly afford to block them on your phone. Or that person just trying to aggro you constantly so you explode on him so he gets to call the cops (The Empire) on you.
 
Boney said:
"And now he seems to be making amends. You do not know the tale?" You shake your head. "The short of it is that the Widow and Her siblings were once much more than four, before Salyak had your Ranald interfere." She sighs, and closes her eyes again. "The details are ugly, and not to be shared with those outside Their service. In the aftermath They found us, the Gospodar. So perhaps it was for the best. But amends are still required."
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Wait a minute, this story sounds familiar:

"Legend tells that he had over a hundred offspring, known as the Ellinilli, and together they brought untold destruction to the Elves. Isha pleaded with the other gods to stop the path of destruction, but her pleas fell on deaf ears – deaf except for Loec, who saw an opportunity to use his fabled wit against Ellinill. Convincing him that his children were plotting a coup, Ellinill devoured them all."

We've already had two people speculating on Ulric's connection to the Elinilli:
Boney said:
"Well, not exclusively, of course," she says, smiling. "We understand most humans pick one God to venerate above all others, which isn't the way for most of our kind - and by 'our kind' I mean the Eonir, I can't speak for our scattered cousins. But we are willing, indeed happy, to pay reverence to Ulric as the God of Winter and Wolves, and some amongst us are positively intrigued by a God of War that isn't the Bloody-Handed God."

You frown. "One more to the list, then?"

"I can see why you'd mistrust that, but we act with sincerity, in this as in all things." She turns her head to watch a butterfly flap past. "You may already know that a Sacred Flame that only burns the unworthy is significant to us. The accounts of your Magnus standing in it unharmed have stood up to a great deal of scrutiny on our part. And our Priests are also interested in the Frozen Throne of Ulric, as some descriptions of it are similar to the Diamond Throne. Perhaps Ulric is a guise, or a child, of Asuryan. Needless to say, if this is the case, Ulric is indeed deserving of reverence." She hums, and tilts her head. "Or, alternately, Ulric could be a guise of Addaioth, or one of the Ellinilli we did not know still lives. If so, that He teaches His followers to withstand the torments of Ellinill speaks of His worthiness. Our Ulthuani cousins have reached an accord with Mathlann, after all.
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Boney said:
"We call them the 'Classical' or 'Southern' Gods," you note, "as opposed to the 'Elder' or 'Northern' Gods that the ancestors of the Empire brought with them - Taal, Rhya, Manann, and Ulric."

"The wilds, fertility, the ocean," it says dismissively. "Ulric is another puzzle. Ellinilli, perhaps?"

"I once heard a Laurelorn Elf theorize the same. Who or what are the Ellinilli?"

"Elven Gods of natural destruction fathered by Ellinill, who then grew mistrustful and devoured most of them. Some of them have grown beyond their origins - Mathlann became God of the Sea, Drakira the Goddess of Vengeance, Addaioth has been trying to become a God of Weapons. Ulric may have been a God of blizzards or similar that grew beyond His origins."

"Ulric is said to be brother to Taal," you note.

"It is my suspicion that mortal labels do not apply well to relationships among the Gods." It snorts. "Or perhaps they do, and they are as tumultuous and variable as those of mortals. Ask a Priest of Asuryan who sired Nethu."

"Why do you theorize that there must be so much crossover between the different pantheons?"

It tilts its head. "Why would there not be? Do two dragons share a hunting ground? Two kings a kingdom?"

You consider the point, and have to admit there could be merit to it. You've yourself witnessed Ranald in conflict, first against Stromfels and then against Mork. You've also recently read of Kislevite Gods, and Ursun's Cult is said to have fraught relationship with Ulric's. Did that reflect the relationship between the Gods, where Ulric and Ursun's conceptual territories are too similar, bringing the two into conflict because it causes them to... what? Detract from each other? Be able to prey upon each other?
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Mathilde even reflects on Ursun and Ulric having a fraught relationship, and we all know how Ulric hates Ranald. The gods of Kislev who participated in the Kul Camp battle all had spheres that match with the general domains of Eillinili (Natural Disaster, Weather, Destruction).

I'm still of a mind that Ranald is not exactly Loec, but this caught me off guard. My curiousity is peaked.
 
I think the biggest problem with figuring out if Ranald and Loec are the same god, is that even if they aren't, they are both the types to find the mistaken identity amusing.

And even if they are one god, he would find people thinking he is two different gods amusing.

basically, it's impossible to figure out this shit if the god/gods themselves find fucking with people to fun not too.
 
DragonParadox said:
The Norlanders were quite literally killing the Waytrees that help keep the world from going to hell. There is no amount of beastman distraction that will make up for that because in this instance the humans were literally doing the beastmen's work for them.
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While this statement might be true it is assuming the worst case. While the Waytrees were certainly used, this does not mean that they were essential. The fact that no individual waystone (which is the superior product) is essential, as witnessed by their destruction, indicates that it is likely that the trees are also not essential.

In addition a key difference between men and beastmen is that the beastmen are far more likely to deliberately be targeting the waystones (a likely source of the herdstones) whereas the humans were definitely acting out of ignorance. While they were certainly motivated by greed - as far as I can see it was greed that lacked any sort of known issues, due to the lack of communication by the Eonir. This is not to excuse the Nordland's behavior as innocent but applying the principle of "Don't attribute to malice, what can be explained by stupidity/ignorance".
 
I'm still chewing over this mystical/elemental split for gods thing I proposed a few pages back. I'm trying to work out whether that applies to Ranald's different aspects; like is the Night Prowler elemental? The Gambler mystical? Or is Ranald himself a mystical deity?

What about other gods? Is Ulfric, God of Winter Elemental and Ulfric, God of Battle Mystical?

I think there's a lot of room to play with this idea, but I'm not sure it's 100% correct.
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
I think the biggest problem with figuring out if Ranald and Loec are the same god, is that even if they aren't, they are both the types to find the mistaken identity amusing.

And even if they are one god, he would find people thinking he is two different gods amusing.

basically, it's impossible to figure out this shit if the god/gods themselves find fucking with people to fun not too.
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And even if one of them were to outright admit the truth, their very nature would cause disbelief in the statement - which would very quickly result in circular thinking.
 
Ranald: "Me and Loec are the same person!"

Loec: "No we're not, stop lying!"

Ranald: "Yes we are, you stupid doo-doo head!"

Loec: "How dare you insult yourself like that!" *punches Ranald in the face*

Ranald: "Why I never! Have at you!" *also punches Ranald in the face*

Loec: *bleeding from the nose* "Right, that's it! Now I'm really gonna do you one!"

Ranald: "Woop woop woop woop woop!" *runs away, flailing his arms in the air*

Mathilde: "...and now I'm somehow even further away from figuring out if they're the same deity."
 
Boney said:
He nods. "My Master recommended the diary of Supreme Patriarch Ptolos, but it was extremely redacted and from what remained I believe he had intuitive Windsight. So I'm almost entirely self-taught. That wasn't a problem once I grew accustomed to the environment of the College, but adapting to the outside world has been a challenge, even before all this."
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Added Supreme Patriarch Ptolos to the "Former" section on the Rolodex. I made a bit of an assumption that he is most likely the same "Archmage Ptolos" in the Empire Army Books that possessed the Grey Wand. Total War Warhammer also has an item called the "Shield of Ptolos" but I couldn't figure out if it's TW only.
Boney said:
"The one and only. Devastating woman. From what I've heard she never even made it out of Altdorf as a Journeywoman - was about to set off when the city was besieged by Tomb Kings after some trinket or another, and by the time they were rebuffed she'd made enough of a name for herself on the walls that they promoted her to Magister. Pity she keeps handing back power, she's much better suited to it." He sighs. "What about yours? Magister Patriarch Olorin, isn't it? I've never heard much about them, which I suppose is only natural."
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Also added this tidbit to Mira's profile. Promoted straight from Journeywomen to Magister without doing a Journey because she proved herself against Tomb Kings. Not as impressive as Dragomas, but still very commendable.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
I feel you are overstating the importance of the Waytrees
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At least according to Caedath, things going at the rate they were meant that magic in the forest would go completely stagnant and become a haven for Beastmen.
Boney said:
"Our long resistance against Drakwald sapped both our and their strength, until they fell to Beastmen and we nearly with them. So when Nordland began to encroach, we measured what lornalim losses we could sustain without our forests becoming thick with stagnant magic and swarming with Beastmen, and for a time we achieved peace with the Nordlanders. But every new generation and each new Grand Baron wanted more, and when more was not given, they took anyway. We were faced with a slow extinction by Beastman predation, or a fast extinction by a new war.
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