Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Codex]

Except Deathfang said that Rhya isn't Shallya, and I believe he said that based on the same knowledge Cython would have access to. Shallya has no children and cries for the suffering of the world and I've never heard of Rhya's Tears nor her crying over dead children. Isha and Shallya aren't very much alike in temperament and personality at all, instead being quite different. Shallya is a demure and submissive maiden who's constantly crying, fearful, restrained, and taken advantage of, while Isha is the mother goddess whom the High Elves associate with power and respect, whose high priestess ruled over all elves before the coming of Chaos.

We know what a rougher Shallya would look like because that's how she is as Salyak over in Kislev. Both Salyak's cultists and Shallya's cultists believe Salyak and Shallya to be the same goddess, and are technically the same cult.

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Deathfang said Rhya isn't Isha:

Asarnil smiles archly. "Are you going to suggest that he isn't? That there's two horned Gods of the hunt, two Kings of the wilderness, two husbands to the Goddess of fertility and bounty?"

"Rhya isn't Isha," Deathfang interrupts around a mouthful of beef.

"What?" Asarnil says, taken aback.

"Rhya isn't Isha," Deathfang repeats. "Draugnir joined with your Gods, but Radixashen joined with Rhya. I know not of Kurnous and Taal, but Rhya and Isha are two different beings."

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EDIT: I also made a typo. Rhya's Tears don't exist, Isha's Tears is what I was talking about. Isha's Tears are her symbol.

 

[Andres]

Deathfang said Rhya isn't Isha:

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Whoops, yeah, what I meant. Made a similar typo as you.

Didn't know about Isha's Tears.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

Isha should be viewed as a combination of Rhya and SHallya, or perhaps Rhya and Shallya are two different interpretations of her. The most obvious link between Isha and Shallya is the very obvious parallel between "Rhya's Tears" and "Shallya's Tears" where both of them are seen crying tears of sorrow over the deaths of their children. Rhya is a rougher goddess than Isha, who is very much like Shallya in temperament and personality.

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Those 'shoulds' and 'obviously' is very much assuming your interpretation of Shallya, Rhya and Isha is the only one.

Even while it contradicts the view of the one being in quest that has meet survents of both (deathwing) and Said they don't feel the same.

or that you seem to think Isha is a lot nicer then Rhya, even though I would be relatively confident that has regularly been nastier then Rhya in 'the Myths'.

and I don't know if you have read the books or not, but it feels like you took one parallel story/quest plot (the tears) and then throw away everything else.

Shallya never came across, to me at least, as very connected to Isha or Rhya in any of the RPG books.

there is a reason that Shallya has not be linked to Isha before now: outside of healing in a general concept , there really isn't anything.

even the 'theme' of healing isn't the same

Isha is life energy, growth and 'nature overcoming' e.g she is helping the body heal itself.

while Shallya is much more hospice, nursing and 'the miracle touch'. Shallya is the one that heals you.

 

[Codex]

Those 'shoulds' and 'obviously' is very much assuming your interpretation of Shallya, Rhya and Isha is the only one.

Even while it contradicts the view of the one being in quest that has meet survents of both (deathwing) and Said they don't feel the same.

or that you seem to think Isha is a lot nicer then Rhya, even though I would be relatively confident that has regularly been nastier then Rhya in 'the Myths'.

and I don't know if you have read the books or not, but it feels like you took one parallel story/quest plot (the tears) and then throw away everything else.

Shallya never came across, to me at least, as very connected to Isha or Rhya in any of the RPG books.

there is a reason that Shallya has not be linked to Isha before now: outside of healing in a general concept , there really isn't anything.

even the 'theme' of healing isn't the same

Isha is life energy, growth and 'nature overcoming' e.g she is helping the body heal itself.

while Shallya is much more hospice, nursing and 'the miracle touch'. Shallya is the one that heals you.

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When has "Deathwing" (I assume you mean Deathfang) ever talked about Shallya? He said that Rhya isn't Isha. That was it. He never said where Shallya came into the equation.

You know who Deathfang said felt the same? Ranald and Loec.

What I am comparing is these two stories:
"The symbol of Isha is the All Seeing Eye, shedding tears for her mortal children, the Elves. At the dawn of time, Asuryan decided that while the Elves would be prodigiously long-lived, they would still grow weary of the world and die. Isha, who loved her children above all her creations, despaired and cried in anguish, her tears falling like rain onto the mortal world below, providing the waters of life that transformed Ulthuan into such a rich and bountiful land."

"She is portrayed as fair, young maiden whose eyes perpetually well with tears for the suffering of the world."

The stories of Shallya feeling sad that Morr decided that all humans would eventually die are very similar to the stories of Isha crying tears that flood over the lands to form the rivers. The tears are so significant they form her symbol. It's not "just a story" it's her glyph, that represents who she is.

Sure Shallya isn't 1:1 to Isha, and neither is Rhya. Isha is not Rhya and not SHallya. They're differnt goddesses that might have come from a similar origin. I've always made this clear in my posts about gods, that despite all similarities the gods of Elves and Humans come from their separate societies and points of view.

I genuinely don't get what you're trying to say here, because the one who presupposed that Shallya and Isha were the same god was not me, it was Cython. I just mentioned similarities between the two, didn't say they were the same god.

I do prefer that you don't start saying stuff like "I don't know if you read the books or not" as if you're attacking my knowledge base.

 

[Jyn Ryvia]

I do prefer that you don't start saying stuff like "I don't know if you read the books or not" as if you're attacking my knowledge base.

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That not a target to you: there is legitimately a lot of people in the quest whose only knowledge base is the quest and wiki. And it's good to find out where they are on that.

it's not a 'you have to read the books to argue' thing. Is just that there have been times people have said with confidence something from the wiki that's just wrong, or have used something from the quest (generally it's about Ranald, and his worship, because mathy's relationship is not standard) and apply it broadly to canon.

 

[Codex]

That not a target to you: there is legitimately a lot of people in the quest whose only knowledge base is the quest and wiki. And it's good to find out where they are on that.

it's not a 'you have to read the books to argue' thing. Is just that there have been times people have said with confidence something from the wiki that's just wrong, or have used something from the quest (generally it's about Ranald, and his worship, because mathy's relationship is not standard) and apply it broadly to canon.

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Except I don't care about canon? I'm talking about the quest. There are example from canon that can be used to bring up a similarity between Isha and Shallya, and I genuinely don't care for the connection itself. What I wanted to point out was how someone as intelligent as Cython could fall under the impression that Shallya and Isha are the same being. Obviously Cython is arrogant as hell, but they remain intelligent and they would need some basis for making a conclusion that they were the same goddess, even if the basis is relatively flimsy on deep analysis. Who knows, maybe Tylosian worship of Shallya in Cython's day was much more reminiscient of Isha's worship, we don't know.

The biggest clue for how Cython could immediately come to a conclusion that Shallya and Isha are the same being is hearing that Shallya is crying. Compare that to how he figured out the horned god was "obviously Kurnous" and it checks out.

 

[Alratan]

Ishea is apparently the name of the Goddess that the Tileans worshipped before she was renamed/replaced by Rhya as a result of Proto-Imperial influence.

If Isha and Rhya aren't the same goddess that suggests that the former's cult was usurped by the latter in the southern Old World.

 

[Boney]

I was confused by this passage several times everytime I reread it wondering who this Horned God is and assuming it's Taal, then I remembered that Cython never got to know the Northern Gods, and I finally decide to check the comment below the update rather than skipping through it and now I feel like an idiot. I don't know how I missed the Horned Rat being worshipped by the people of Tylos leading to the Doom of Kavzan.

I was just surprised on how both Mathilde and Cython fell to the whole "this is a horned god must be Kurnous/Taal" trap. Horned Rat looks like a rat, and I don't think his horns look like a Stag's. Was the representations of him long ago super vague, or did his shape change with time? I find it difficult to mistake Taal/Kurnous with the Horned Rat.

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The Skaven say the God in question is a rat. Tylos says that it's a man. Who's to say which is right? Who's to say if either of them is right? Who's to say if there's even a meaningful answer to be had?

 

[Andres]

Ishea is apparently the name of the Goddess that the Tileans worshipped before she was renamed/replaced by Rhya as a result of Proto-Imperial influence.

If Isha and Rhya aren't the same goddess that suggests that the former's cult was usurped by the latter in the southern Old World.

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Source for Ishea and her supplantation?

 

[Codex]

Hmm, so I reached the Ambush on the Skull River update, and one of the reasons Mathilde didn't rule out Marienburg's involvement in the sinking of the Okral's ships was that Southern Stirland was suffering an outbreak of diseases. The first response is "oh courting chaos", but then we start suspecting that it's possible the Skaven were involved because of Dhar discharge in the explosive. This got me to connect some dots and wonder, is Pestilens involved in the disease outbreak in Southern Stirland?

They're currently out of favor and the status of the Civil War is currently unknown, but it is possible that Pestilens might want to sic the Dwarves on the other Skaven forces to take some of the heat off of them and allow them to recover their losses, so they decided to attack the Okral. But then again the framejob wouldn't make sense because the only way we found out there was any Dhar was because we were there for the pulling of the ship and had very sharp Magesight, and it is far more likely whoever wanted to make it a framejob wanted to frame Marienburg without having a great knowledge of how Marienburg would source the explosives.

Maybe Marienburg has a thriving Skaven Undercity controlled by Pestillens rivals and having a war waged on the city would disrupt their operations allowing Pestilens to take advantage of it to acquire their own resources, but at this point I'm starting to create a conspiracy theory board and I feel like I'm talking about Pepe Silvia.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Hmm, so I reached the Ambush on the Skull River update, and one of the reasons Mathilde didn't rule out Marienburg's involvement in the sinking of the Okral's ships was that Southern Stirland was suffering an outbreak of diseases. The first response is "oh courting chaos", but then we start suspecting that it's possible the Skaven were involved because of Dhar discharge in the explosive. This got me to connect some dots and wonder, is Pestilens involved in the disease outbreak in Southern Stirland?

They're currently out of favor and the status of the Civil War is currently unknown, but it is possible that Pestilens might want to sic the Dwarves on the other Skaven forces to take some of the heat off of them and allow them to recover their losses, so they decided to attack the Okral. But then again the framejob wouldn't make sense because the only way we found out there was any Dhar was because we were there for the pulling of the ship and had very sharp Magesight, and it is far more likely whoever wanted to make it a framejob wanted to frame Marienburg without having a great knowledge of how Marienburg would source the explosives.

Maybe Marienburg has a thriving Skaven Undercity controlled by Pestillens rivals and having a war waged on the city would disrupt their operations allowing Pestilens to take advantage of it to acquire their own resources, but at this point I'm starting to create a conspiracy theory board and I feel like I'm talking about Pepe Silvia.

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There are two Karaks on the Black Water lake; Zhufbar and Karak Varn. Varn is a lost hold occupied by Skaven. It feels like the easy answer is to point fingers at them, especially if they have Horned Rat cults seeded among the population of the Border Princes.

 

[Codex]

There are two Karaks on the Black Water lake; Zhufbar and Karak Varn. Varn is a lost hold occupied by Skaven. It feels like the easy answer is to point fingers at them, especially if they have Horned Rat cults seeded among the population of the Border Princes.

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The problem is that I don't know what clan is in Karak Varn. It's never been mentioned and I can't find canon sources for the clan, just for the Warlord because Queek killed him. Can't extrapolate much information from such a blank slate.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

The problem is that I don't know what clan is in Karak Varn. It's never been mentioned and I can't find canon sources for the clan, just for the Warlord because Queek killed him. Can't extrapolate much information from such a blank slate.

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It's possible that the Skaven Civil war shuffled some territories around, but yeah, without knowledge of exactly who's in Varn, they merely remain a suspect.

 

[The Phoenixian]

Except Deathfang said that Rhya isn't Shallya, and I believe he said that based on the same knowledge Cython would have access to. Shallya has no children and cries for the suffering of the world and I've never heard of Rhya's Tears nor her crying over dead children. Isha and Shallya aren't very much alike in temperament and personality at all, instead being quite different. Shallya is a demure and submissive maiden who's constantly crying, fearful, restrained, and taken advantage of, while Isha is the mother goddess whom the High Elves associate with power and respect, whose high priestess ruled over all elves before the coming of Chaos.

We know what a rougher Shallya would look like because that's how she is as Salyak over in Kislev. Both Salyak's cultists and Shallya's cultists believe Salyak and Shallya to be the same goddess, and are technically the same cult.

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I'm pretty sure Deathfang has a much better way of telling gods apart than Cython. Cython couldn't tell the Horned Rat from Taal. Assuming they didn't make other observations too. Deathfang meanwhile said that Mathilde was "Glowing with [Ranald's] energies" in the wake of our enthusiastic walk along to take the Za Goblet from the Kurgan.

Thus from all that, I'm of the belief that Deathfang has a similar sort of Avatar-type spirit sight as Mathilde does. Which has had me wonder before whether Deathfang is becoming a god thanks to all his time on the various battlefields of the Old World. Or some other reason, though he doesn't strike me as the type to follow or otherwise join with a god.

Likewise, I've wondered a time or two if he would be able to tell which god it was behind the transmutation of Dum's desert crater. But eh, bygones; that information wasn't spelled out to us until after.

 

[Codex]

I'm pretty sure Deathfang has a much better way of telling gods apart than Cython. Cython couldn't tell the Horned Rat from Taal. Assuming they didn't make other observations too. Deathfang meanwhile said that Mathilde was "Glowing with [Ranald's] energies" in the wake of our enthusiastic walk along to take the Za Goblet from the Kurgan.

Thus from all that, I'm of the belief that Deathfang has a similar sort of Avatar-type spirit sight as Mathilde does. Which has had me wonder before whether Deathfang is becoming a god thanks to all his time on the various battlefields of the Old World. Or some other reason, though he doesn't strike me as the type to follow or otherwise join with a god.

Likewise, I've wondered a time or two if he would be able to tell which god it was behind the transmutation of Dum's desert crater. But eh, bygones; that information wasn't spelled out to us until after.

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Minor note, Deathfang said Mathilde was glowing with "The Dancer's Energy". He probably meant Loec, as Ranald is not depicted as a Dancer. Asarnil also definitely takes it to mean Loec.

 

[Jreengus]

Minor note, Deathfang said Mathilde was glowing with "The Dancer's Energy". He probably meant Loec, as Ranald is not depicted as a Dancer. Asarnil also definitely takes it to mean Loec.

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Now we can get into Laurelorn I'd like to look into that, maybe spend an action visiting his temples/shrines speaking to any of his priests to find out what Mathilde makes of Loec.

 

[Codex]

A demonstration of Mathilde tap dancing over the line between "breaching confidence for the greater good" and "they didn't tell me it was a secret secret":

[X] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor

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Ah. "You described Karak Eight Peaks as an Old Hold. Is that what your experts tell you?"

"Some believe they may be strongly influenced by the Young Holds, but King Belegar was raised in Karaz-a-Karak and their closest ally is Karak Azul."

You take a moment to consider how to put this. "When I first started living with the Dwarves, I was struck by the cultural divide between the Young Holds and the Old Holds. It's an easy impression to reach, and one that few Dwarves will discourage. But the truth is..." You pause, trying to find the best way to tell him what he needs to know without speaking ill of those you live amongst. "I know a radical engineer who once told me that the only Old Hold is Karaz-a-Karak, and the more I see of the Karaz Ankor, the more truth I find in his words. Set aside Karak Azul, which has been isolated for generations. Karak Kadrin is pragmatic, Zhufbar is progressive - at least by Dwarf standards - and Barak Varr is cosmopolitan. And to assuage the guilt they feel for veering from the path of their ancestors, they speak a great deal of their admiration for the Old Ways, and allow themselves to be labelled an Old Hold, and allow Karaz-a-Karak a certain level of cultural primacy."

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"I don't think it's the Empire, and I don't think it's just my own allegiances talking. The Empire might hypothetically want to retake Westerland at some point, but not now, not when Stirland's occupied with Vampires, Wissenland is still licking its wounds after the attack on Under-Nuln, Ostland is dealing with Yhetees, and things between Middenland and Nordland are still tense. All they want now is for the blockade to be lifted.

"If they wanted to force the issue, they've got the First Fleet in Altdorf and the Second Fleet in Nordland, they'd start attacking Norscan ships with the Second Fleet and make hue and cry to Kislev and Bretonnia when Marienburg refuses to lift the blockade and keeps the First Fleet from the battle." You phrase this as a hypothetical instead of the Chamberlain of the Seal's explicit idea, which makes it slightly less of a breaking of confidence. And besides, it's for the best of causes.

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Thankfully we're sidestepping the circumstances that would push our DIvided Loyalties to a head, so this is about as worse as it gets I think.

 

[Nerdasaurus Rex]

Thankfully we're sidestepping the circumstances that would push our DIvided Loyalties to a head, so this is about as worse as it gets I think.

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It helps that the two polities we're loyal to have an alliance so deep and ingrained in the psyche that maintaining it is almost a religious commandment for the dwarves and literally a religious commandment for the humans. All we're doing is sharing insight into each cultures mindset to smooth the gears of that alliance.

 

[Alliterate]

Now we can get into Laurelorn I'd like to look into that, maybe spend an action visiting his temples/shrines speaking to any of his priests to find out what Mathilde makes of Loec.

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They won't escape you again.

This Priest of Loec is slippery, but you're sure you'll catch up with them, this time.

The first time you arrived at the Temple, you caught a glimpse of them across the wide avenue, giving a blessing from the Temple steps. As you tried to cross, some sort of euphoric dance celebration burst out, the swirling dancers blocking you at every turn, and you lost the Priest in the revelry. How were you to know this happened to be a high holy day?

The second time, informed of the local religious calendar, it was surely just a coincidence that they had been called away shortly before you arrived. To collect on a wager, if the Toriour staying in the Temple charity dorm was to be believed. Perfectly plausible occurrence.

The third time, staking out the Temple at dusk, you swear you just stopped to browse the enticing bookstore for a moment, and when you looked up, the Priest had slipped away again.

The fourth time. This time, you're sure. Luck will be on your side and you can finally quiz this evasive Priest of Loec about Ranald.

 

[Andres]

They won't escape you again.

This Priest of Loec is slippery, but you're sure you'll catch up with them, this time.

The first time you arrived at the Temple, you caught a glimpse of them across the wide avenue, giving a blessing from the Temple steps. As you tried to cross, some sort of holy dance celebration burst out, the swirling dancers blocking you at every turn, and you lost the Priest in the revelry. How were you to know this happened to be a high holy day?

The second time, it was definitely just a coincidence that the they had been called away shortly before you arrived. To collect on a bet, if the Toriour staying in the Temple charity dorm was to be believed. Perfectly plausible occurrence.

The third time, staking out the Temple at dusk, you swear you just stopped to browse the enticing bookstore for a moment, and when you looked up, the Priest had slipped away again.

The fourth time. This time, you're sure. Luck will be on your side and you can finally quiz this evasive Priest of Loec about Ranald.

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WFRP 4e: Altdorf - Crown of the Empire, page 173

Count Jäger
Wild-eyed, theatrical, and ostentatiously ragged, old Count Jäger is a famous — though usually fleeting — sight from the slums of Altdorf to the parties of highest society. Wherever he goes, he is a blessing, bringing good fortune to those who see him, and the best of luck to those who can shake his hand, touch his robes, or get him to utter a greeting.

They call him a count, but noble lineage is uncertain. Some say he is not Human, but an avatar of Ranald in the world. Some say he turns into a cat when you are not looking. The old man just seems to go about his way oblivious to all this fuss, taking advantage of any free wine, good company, and song. People enthusiastically shower this good will upon him wherever he goes. Ranaldans are always especially pleased to run into him, and know it will bring luck.

Avatar of Ranald
Physical manifestations of the gods appear a great deal in Elven legend, but most Altdorfers scorn the notion that Count Jäger is divine. Lief of Stromdorf, a Grey Order scholar, is convinced that Count Jäger is more than a mere mortal, and has spent a year searching for him. Despite numoerus [sic] near misses his search has been in vain.

For his part, Count Jäger declines to confirm any rumour. Asked about his divinity he shakes his head, winks, and hints that all tall tales told about him, even those that contradict each other, are somehow absolutely true.

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EDIT: This guy is in Tome of Salvation too.

 

[Mopman43]

plus I don't think there's any modern day indications that it's even interested in human worship.

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For what it's worth, there are cults to the Horned Rat among humans, though if the Horned Rat notices or not is certainly up in the air.

 

[consequences]

I'm reminded of how Mathilde had to look to a bunch of comparisons to try to communicate what the waaagh energies were like. Being able to couch descriptions on some sort of universal standard would be very useful. Especially if said standard was based off of her windsight...

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Insert ThereAreNow15CompetingStandards.gif

It will be a useful tool, but partially because the arguments about how the representation is completely wrong may inspire insight and competing efforts to perfect the Smellotron and Vertigoinator.

 

[SakSak]

Insert ThereAreNow15CompetingStandards.gif

It will be a useful tool, but partially because the arguments about how the representation is completely wrong may inspire insight and competing efforts to perfect the Smellotron and Vertigoinator.

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"No no no! The z-axis spin is completely wrong for what Waagh feels like! Right now it is much closer to Azyr which should tell you how far off we are. Increase the rotation by 150% and every three point two seconds add a lurch on the fifth ratchet wheel! I need to feel my stomach flipping over!"

You watch as Magister Sanders of the Celestial Order kept on calibrating the device with a team of engineers and apprentices. When you asked for help on developing tools to accurately communicating Windsight results on less common but still standard forms, you hadn't expected one of the tools to be the size of a room, take a steam engine to run, and look like a strange flimsy ball composed of dozens of gear-wheels with a person sitting in the middle being jolted about every which way.

There just was no previous frame of reference to this, but Grey Order teachings came to the fore and had you nodding along and muttering 'as expected' whenever progress reports came in - and surprisingly enough, they were coming in - with relative regularity, so for now you'd sit back and pray to Ranald trust the team to do their thing.

 

[Codex]

Is this a problem? Well, that depends. In a perfect world, the procedure that would have chosen the branch's staff would pick those ideal for the job, and Adela's intervention has prevented that. But in the world that is, it's much more likely that if Adela hadn't put her thumb on the scale, someone else would have. And this way you have a set of levers inside the branch that you can access through Adela, should it ever prove necessary. So you simply confirm that they have the qualifications required for the positions they're filling, make a few slightly pointed comments to Adela to make sure that she knows that you know, and leave the matter at that.

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Mathilde is delightfully devious. What I expected from this action was that Mathilde would have a serious talk with Adela about abusing authority to reinforce nepotism, but it went in a direction I completely didn't expect. Part of it is my naivety assuming that Mathilde would break it down, but she saw an opportunity and took it. By allowing this nepotism to happen, Mathilde now has levers set in the Karag Nar Gunnery School that she can pull whenever she needs it, and Adela could not reasonably object to it considering it's basically paying the price for nepotism.

Really helps show how different a Grey Wizard's mentality would be. It's better for these people to be in than some other person who might be more qualified (or maybe another product of nepotism) because now she has an asset she could cultivate.

 

[Chopak]

They won't escape you again.

This Priest of Loec is slippery, but you're sure you'll catch up with them, this time.

The first time you arrived at the Temple, you caught a glimpse of them across the wide avenue, giving a blessing from the Temple steps. As you tried to cross, some sort of euphoric dance celebration burst out, the swirling dancers blocking you at every turn, and you lost the Priest in the revelry. How were you to know this happened to be a high holy day?

The second time, informed of the local religious calendar, it was surely just a coincidence that they had been called away shortly before you arrived. To collect on a wager, if the Toriour staying in the Temple charity dorm was to be believed. Perfectly plausible occurrence.

The third time, staking out the Temple at dusk, you swear you just stopped to browse the enticing bookstore for a moment, and when you looked up, the Priest had slipped away again.

The fourth time. This time, you're sure. Luck will be on your side and you can finally quiz this evasive Priest of Loec about Ranald.

Click to shrink...

Even setting Gambler to the action won't help you when you roll a 4 on a d100