Imperious
Without the sun of my life
Deities. In plural. Aside from eating Morr Nagash also eats Valaya, the Dwarf goddess of hearth, healing and brewing, in EoT.
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Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism
- Thread starter torroar
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……..
'Tis a silly place. Let's not go there.
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
Though they never did explain the whole thing about why Abhorash decided to spend the last moments of the world fighting together with Gilles, save that the two of them dueled in the past, at the end of which Abhorash swore some sort of oath to Gilles. I can only assume that after deciding that the other was a pretty okay guy, Gilles and Abhorash agreed that whenever Abhorash is feeling kind of bored the two of them will use their respective Chaos immunities (Gilles as blessed immortal ghost, Abhorash as a progenitor vampire) to go egg Morghur's house.
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- Location
- Hyperborea
>1st Chaos Dwarf or Druchi starts using Necromancy
>2nd Chaos Dwarf or Druchi: "Hey, this jerk is accumulating too much power too quickly using a method we don't have access to ourselves! Let's kill him!"
>3rd Chaos Dwarf or Druchi: "Yeah!"
It's Disorder factions, really could be as simple as crabs in a bucket tearing down anyone that tries to rise above the rest.
Dead things simply do not produce as much suffering/pleasure/rage/greed/depression as living thing do. Why on earth would any chaos god/daemon choose such a sub standard thing? Even the upper class ones aren't all that fun to be around.
Also, using the undead make them extra succeptible to gods of death... And Nagash.
So yeah. They won't use Nagash's software because Nagash might backdoor them.
Watsonian: The world was ending and so they looked for solace in the arms of a fellow honorable warrior. One who's respect the other had earned in ages past. What better way to end the world than in the arms of a lover.
Doylist: The writers were bad. Or maybe corporate wanted to make it low key homoerotic. Fuck if I know. *drinks heavily to forget*
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2 things before I am unavailable for the next few hours.
1. Koros-dar Nael <- This is an undead Liche Elf who got so pissed at the War of the Beard/Vengeance goings on that he went full necromancy.
2. There exists a little-known nugget of lore, involving Genevieve's novels in fact, with a Monastery of Midnight Contemplation or something like that, where some vampires hang out who don't want anything to do with the machinations of the greater Bloodlines. They have, IIRC, some non-human vampires there. I can't recall more than that, it's quite obscure lore.
I doubt that they then wouldn't pursue it themselves, to be honest…
I think Knife's theory is the best- cross magical contamination risks are too high to make use of necromancy, even for chattel slavery.
(As a faction, I mean, evidently some individuals go off the deep end.)
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Imperious
Without the sun of my life
IIRC it's mentioned that in some of Naggaroth's warpstone mines slaves who die mining end up being raised back by the warpstone as undead to keep mining.
A watsonian explanation would probably be that in places like Naggaroth manual labor is cheap while a sorceress' time is valuable. Why would the theoretical Druchii lord pay the no doubt obsecene rate of an expensive, and probably rare, professional like a sorceress to devise a way to perform manual labor that he can just have his thralls do.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Nah that was Paul. Who had a LOT of ideas that had a LOT of push on the church and the thing it became. Who was actually one of the people giving the Christians to the Romans before he 'saw the light'. And whose ideas were very fucking different to how the earliest churches did things (which was honestly pretty fucking sweet, informal gender equality, no real centralised authority, etc). The shitty takes on women mostly came from Roman/Ancient Greek cultural integration and the uh, surfeit of very bitter men in the priesthood that certain early medieval noble practices produced.
Small note on necromancy, before I go again, cause I saw this in passing and wanted to comment:
Necromancy is most definitely not easy, compared to the other magics. It carries a lot, lot of risks, and it twists people harder than Single Wind stuff does - for humans at least. It's the mainlining of Dhar, you see. It's just that there's a difference between people who accidentally sort of drift into necromancy, indignant doctors doing studies and the like, who end up accidentally messing around with a single body at a time, and full on true Necromancers.
For instance, one of the most dangerous and skilled Necromancers of all Warhammer Fantasy, Kemmler, was one of the most powerful of all time. But he started 'as a young man' because he was terrified of his own mortality, and it is considered extremely noteworthy that he was able to raise 'whole graveyards to do his bidding' by his 40th year. Not quite the same level as the vast armies of the Von Carsteins during the Vampire Wars, you know?
It's maddening - literally - and those who sort of eke their way through are made half-alive, and yet one of the main things about the true Necromancers are the fact that all of them have extended their lives. There's a good reason why TWW made every single Master Necromancer this horrible looking pruned ancient gnarled guys, and even Kemmler who has sort of retained his face/body in a vaguely healthier looking state is still way off for a human.
It takes a lot of time, is what I'm saying, to go from those who dabble in it a bit and screw around to someone like Kemmler, but at the same time one of the big issues is that Necromancers and Necromancy have this weird tendency to publish books and try to spread 'em around. The Magic Colleges have their campuses, and tightly control everyone under their umbrella, and want people to come to them for schooling, but the necromancers keep leaving tomes around. Some of which can corrupt you just, you know, by you having it nearby. The Books of Nagash are especially famous examples of this, but there are plenty of other texts around as well, as various necromancers proudly (emphasis on pride) write up their own tomes to show everyone else in the necromancer world just how knowledgeable and learned they are. This expansive amount of learning material, in turn, means that on occasion you get some younger necromancers who just sorta balloon in power and knowledge way faster than they otherwise might have. See the necromancer cabals that learned from Vlad and were nearly able to help Konrad win his Vampire Wars alone, with the armies and the zombie Emperor and so on.
It's just that those necromancers you do see, the ones with the armies and like, are the ones who have been around long enough to reach that point where they think they can operate more openly. And always, always remember - those ones are older than they look. A big part of getting into the real nitty gritty of Necromancy is the pursuit of escaping the confines of the mortal coil, after all.
Necromancy is most definitely not easy, compared to the other magics. It carries a lot, lot of risks, and it twists people harder than Single Wind stuff does - for humans at least. It's the mainlining of Dhar, you see. It's just that there's a difference between people who accidentally sort of drift into necromancy, indignant doctors doing studies and the like, who end up accidentally messing around with a single body at a time, and full on true Necromancers.
For instance, one of the most dangerous and skilled Necromancers of all Warhammer Fantasy, Kemmler, was one of the most powerful of all time. But he started 'as a young man' because he was terrified of his own mortality, and it is considered extremely noteworthy that he was able to raise 'whole graveyards to do his bidding' by his 40th year. Not quite the same level as the vast armies of the Von Carsteins during the Vampire Wars, you know?
It's maddening - literally - and those who sort of eke their way through are made half-alive, and yet one of the main things about the true Necromancers are the fact that all of them have extended their lives. There's a good reason why TWW made every single Master Necromancer this horrible looking pruned ancient gnarled guys, and even Kemmler who has sort of retained his face/body in a vaguely healthier looking state is still way off for a human.
It takes a lot of time, is what I'm saying, to go from those who dabble in it a bit and screw around to someone like Kemmler, but at the same time one of the big issues is that Necromancers and Necromancy have this weird tendency to publish books and try to spread 'em around. The Magic Colleges have their campuses, and tightly control everyone under their umbrella, and want people to come to them for schooling, but the necromancers keep leaving tomes around. Some of which can corrupt you just, you know, by you having it nearby. The Books of Nagash are especially famous examples of this, but there are plenty of other texts around as well, as various necromancers proudly (emphasis on pride) write up their own tomes to show everyone else in the necromancer world just how knowledgeable and learned they are. This expansive amount of learning material, in turn, means that on occasion you get some younger necromancers who just sorta balloon in power and knowledge way faster than they otherwise might have. See the necromancer cabals that learned from Vlad and were nearly able to help Konrad win his Vampire Wars alone, with the armies and the zombie Emperor and so on.
It's just that those necromancers you do see, the ones with the armies and like, are the ones who have been around long enough to reach that point where they think they can operate more openly. And always, always remember - those ones are older than they look. A big part of getting into the real nitty gritty of Necromancy is the pursuit of escaping the confines of the mortal coil, after all.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Huh, I confess I had the impression it, while twisting and perverting a human, was easier. Easier power for horrible gains. Heck, Frederick Van Hal had no training in any magical arts but stumbled into it and found he was really damn good at the cost of his increasingly frayed sanity.
Guess I was wrong. It makes sense in that context.
Guess I was wrong. It makes sense in that context.
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I think it's more like 'immense risks (Dhar cores you out) for incredible power (immortality, massive armies of thralls)'
So instead of being ease vs risk, it's risk vs reward.
After all, no other lore let's you field dozens, and then eventually hundreds, of monsters to do your every bidding.
So instead of being ease vs risk, it's risk vs reward.
After all, no other lore let's you field dozens, and then eventually hundreds, of monsters to do your every bidding.
Also just saw this from the post above mine this morning. Uh, probably shouldn't be saying things like that. I don't think it was like that either, they probably just wanted two big fighty heroes together, maybe something about honor or whatever. Probably just edit that out?
EDIT: Ah. Hmm. I think someone else already caught sight of this before I did. Apologies all around, again, I guess. Given the blue bit above the post I can see now, and the red thing.
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To the greater thread, I know that stuff like End Times makes it feel like our throats are filled with bile, but while I'm fine with a good bit of grumbling, let's try to avoid stuff like blaming it on...you know...as reasonings behind it like that going forward. Please? I'm starting to get, like, near panic attacks anytime I see someone with a different colored name in the people reading the thread thing at the bottom. I can't and don't want to spend every single minute checking every post on every page of the thread, ya'll.
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The risk-reward thing comes closer to the core mechanic I think, but from the couple dozen books I have I get the impression that it actually is easier to use Dhar than a single wind. You have to isolate and filter the other winds before you can even begin to use them, while Dhar is equal-opportunity; any wind at all is good enough.
So it's easier in the sense of "easier to do" - it's just the "surviving to do it again" that's a much bigger problem than using a single wind. In the same fashion as "It's really easy to fall over, and it's not the fall that kills you; it's the sudden stop at the end".
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
Reynolds mentioned something about some books he had been planning about Abhorash that would never get written and before EoT Abhorash appears again in canon exactly a single time after he kills his dragon, that being when he gives the Blood Kiss to the Duke of Aquitaine, who would later be known as the Red Duke, having been so impressed by his prowess in the crusades. It's possible that had Games Workshop not decided to squat all of Warhammer Fantasy, that there were some books coming down the pipes on what Abhorash had been up to since he overcame his thirst, which apparently involved a visit or two to Bretonnia.
Enh. See, I know that part. But I, personally, don't super love the idea of it? I get that Gilles was a really incredible guy, and may or may not be the Green Knight, but it felt really out of nowhere that suddenly also Abhorash decided he was great too. If Abhorash was wandering around, that's one thing, but personally I felt like Bretonnia - despite the Crusades and what not - really didn't interact much with Nehekhara so much as Araby. So the Red Duke was one thing, but Gilles as well? Eh. It didn't really appeal to me all that much when I heard about it. I mean, yeah, comparing apples and oranges vs. Empire and Bretonnia on some level I guess. Sigmar became a God, Gilles maybe or maybe didn't become the Green Knight, so...yeah. Sigmar obviously had all his major accomplishments, but Gilles did too, even if he didn't also do the straight up vs. Nagash+Everchosen stuff he did unify Bretonnia and had his great battles and deeds.
It just seemed both sudden, and...odd, that Abhorash wouldn't have tried to turn Gilles or something like he did the Red Duke? I don't know. It's not like the Red Duke seemed especially good at doing anything but being a rampaging asshole, which I feel like Abhorash wasn't particularly jazzed about in general. He might have come to despise humanity and such, though, which IIRC was noted somewhere that his former idealism had turned to antipathy, but that just makes it weirder that he and Gilles had sworn any bonds of friendship or honorable conduct or anything. I would more easily believe Gilles finding Abhorash a blood-sucking, monstrous, humanity-hating monster that it would be his duty to kill or something.
Maybe there was something in the line for Abhorash, but I don't know. They built him so that he was this distant, unreachable pinnacle for so long...eh. It just feels like they threw him and Gilles together, and the way it's been communicated to me is a bit more of a 'and, uh, I guess also Abhorash is there, and Gilles is so cool, and Abhorash is so cool, that they definitely are bros in martial conduct and stuff so they'll fight together as the world ends'. When wouldn't it make more sense for, I dunno, Abhorash to go try to kill Neferata? Or Nagash? Or something like, go find Lahmia and defend it as he wish he could have so long ago? Something.
It just feels, like so much about End Times, that it was thrown together way too haphazardly and with way too little coordination than something like the End Times should have deserved.
- Location
- Dethklok
Maybe that's how much magic/control the necromancer/vampire is doing on the zombies? Like if a necromancer might be able to control 300 skeleton armed with spears, but could only control a small crew of a 100 vampirates, because he needs to push more magic on each individual undead?
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Cecylene
Eternal Idea Engine
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Pronouns
- He/They
Frederick Van Hal had been studying from the secret library of the necromancer, Arisztid Olt, for years before ever using even a single ritual. And when he used his ritual it resonated with all the death of the Black Plague and he basically became a quasi vessel for Nagash even before he got his hands on an imitation of one the books of Nagash penned by Kadon.
Van Hal was a huge outlier from prior knowledge and sheer circumstance.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Perhaps I'm misremembering what I read in the novel, what I recall is him being affected by dreams and suddenly realizing the rising dead he saw was unconsciously done by him. He didn't get any book until some noble who had one tried to challenge him.
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Imperious
Without the sun of my life
If you look at the 6th edition of the Vampire Counts army book, the army book actually had different rules for each of the Bloodlines so your hero character would have different bonuses depending on what vampire bloodline you specced him as. As part of that, each Bloodline during its description had a lore blurb of a vampire from the bloodline doing something impressive to show how cool and awesome that Bloodline is. The Blood Dragon one involves some Questing Knight hearing about a vampire squatting on a bridge killing people trying to go across it. The Questing Knight then proceeds to challenge the Blood Dragon into a duel, only to get the shit kicked out him. After kicking the Questing Knight's ass however, the Blood Dragon lets him go and we're later shown that the Blood Dragon's equipment has a fleur de lys at, showing that he to was once a Bretonnian Knight.
Blood Dragons get their jollies from dueling and turning skilled human warriors into more Blood Dragons, which has taken the form of them raiding an entire knightly order for recruits or just rampaging through Bretonnia while gathering knights as minions. I could see Abhorash wandering about during the time of the Grail Companions, hearing that those guys aren't half bad and deciding he feels like testing their leader. Whether Gilles and Abhorash stalemated or one of them won, the two then decide that the other is okay for a pathetic human mortal/unholy creature of the night. Could be that Abhorash didn't turn Gilles because Gilles' blood as a Grail Knight was poison to him, or Gilles was already a ghost as the Green Knight, or maybe even because Gilles won their duel.
Also it was something that was happening in Bretonnia during EoT other then the Skaven just killing everything offscreen, so you know, that's cool.
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lancelot
Completely worth it
Yes grass is green, the End Times was a ham fisted shit show shoved down our throats for the sake of also shoving magic space marines down our throats as quickly as possible. People need to stop bringing End Times and Age of Suck into this thread. There is very little to save from any of it.
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Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
Wonder how Nagash was able to invent necromancy without going completely nuts then since as hard to do as mentioned since all he was working with was his people's own lore and whatever he got out of dark elves to make a whole new lore of magic.