um ... no , like the Japanese warlords during that famous hundred year civil war with all the samurai were major early adopters of fire arms to massive degree to the point that during the ill fated Japanese invasion of Korea that happened right after said war up to 25% of the invading Japanese forces were arquebusiers .



first of all Ulricians are fine with crossbows and even when they are not they still use them anyway cause being a devout follower of Ulric or any god is not a suicide pact cause people will use any and all means to protect their homes and families no matter what Ulric and his priests say , second the cult of Ulric is not intractable on the matter of fire arms other wise how the hell would Middenland have a cannon so massive it needs an enslaved giant to load it after all the only way such a thing could have been build in Ulric's holy city is if the cult was ok or at least ambivalent towards it plus we have already seen how the cults can be convinced to change their stances like recently with the cult of Rya on technology specifically the seed drill and finally Ulric is at his core is a god of war and survival so his followers are not the sort that will turn away any advantage they can find and that includes fire arms
No they aren't.
"Underhandedness of all kinds is anathema to Ulric's nature of honour and directness. Except for attacking from ambush and using camouflage, subterfuge and deceit are forbidden. Gunpowder weapons and crossbows are also prohibited." Warhammer Chronicles (2004) Cult of Ulric



Saying they are fine with crossbows is just wrong. It goes against one of their central tenants. They do not like self-firing weapons, it removes the idea of strength and honour in combat.

The distinction between canons and guns is made because canons are not a personal weapon, it would be like saying the cult of Ulric has ships, therefore they should use handguns.
 
To be fair, making a shitload of reliable guns and leaving the province awash in them isn't a bad thing. Freddy has titles like "Count of Cannons" and "Graf of Guns" for a reason. We won't regret trying @mmgaballah 's idea, it just leaves us up to our asses in gunsmiths, which is not a bad thing for our purposes, since drowning our enemies in hot lead never gets old.

I just don't think it'll have the effect @mmgaballah expects, because I think Mmgaballah fundamentally misunderstands why the Ulricans reject guns.

He seems to think it's because guns are unreliable or hard to repair. No.

It's because Ulric is a god of primal violence, the struggle for survival, and "nature red in tooth and claw." The use of complex technological artifacts to kill, especially in ways that don't require physical strength, skill, and endurance? That's not something Ulric is going to approve of. To Ulric, you should kill your enemies face-to-face, or at worst by piercing them with an arrow you loosed from a bow that you drew using your own mighty biceps and heroic pectoral muscles. Using some gizmo to take down an enemy is contemptible to Ulric.

Ulric's view on ranged weaponry is best described in more conventional fiction, I think, by Diomedes from Homer's Iliad. The text goes something like this.
I want to make an argument that guns require skill as well and that the dexterity , discipline and aim needed to get multiple shots off in a minute are not to be discounted but you sort of make a valid point and it neatly explains why worship of Ulric was supplanted in the more urbanized and civilized south of the empire and that as Ostland becomes more urbanized its likely to shift from a majority Ulrican to a majority sigmarite denomination which makes the issue of the Ulric gun ban mote
 
To be fair, making a shitload of reliable guns and leaving the province awash in them isn't a bad thing. Freddy has titles like "Count of Cannons" and "Graf of Guns" for a reason. We won't regret trying @mmgaballah 's idea, it just leaves us up to our asses in gunsmiths, which is not a bad thing for our purposes, since drowning our enemies in hot lead never gets old.

I just don't think it'll have the effect @mmgaballah expects, because I think Mmgaballah fundamentally misunderstands why the Ulricans reject guns.

He seems to think it's because guns are unreliable or hard to repair. No.

It's because Ulric is a god of primal violence, the struggle for survival, and "nature red in tooth and claw." The use of complex technological artifacts to kill, especially in ways that don't require physical strength, skill, and endurance? That's not something Ulric is going to approve of. To Ulric, you should kill your enemies face-to-face, or at worst by piercing them with an arrow you loosed from a bow that you drew using your own mighty biceps and heroic pectoral muscles. Using some gizmo to take down an enemy is contemptible to Ulric.

Ulric's view on ranged weaponry is best described in more conventional fiction, I think, by Diomedes from Homer's Iliad. The text goes something like this.



As he spoke he began stripping the spoils from the son of Paeon, but Paris, husband of lovely Helen, aimed an arrow at him, leaning against a pillar of the monument which men had raised to Ilus son of Dardanus, a ruler in days of old. Diomedes had taken the cuirass from off the breast of Agastrophus, his heavy helmet also, and the shield from off his shoulders, when Paris drew his bow and let fly an arrow that sped not from his hand in vain, but pierced the flat of Diomedes' right foot, going right through it and fixing itself in the ground. Thereon Paris with a hearty laugh sprang forward from his hiding-place, and taunted him, saying "You are wounded- my arrow has not been shot in vain; would that it had hit you in the belly and killed you, for thus the Trojans, who fear you as goats fear a lion, would have had a truce from evil!"

Diomedes, all undaunted, answered, "Archer, you who without your bow are nothing, slanderer and seducer, if you were to be tried in single combat fighting in full armour, your bow and your arrows would serve you in little stead. Vain is your boast in that you have scratched the sole of my foot. I care no more than if a girl or some silly boy had hit me. A worthless coward can inflict but a light wound; when I wound a man though I but graze his skin it is another matter, for my weapon will lay him low. His wife will tear her cheeks for grief and his children will be fatherless: there will he rot, reddening the earth with his blood, and vultures, not women, will gather round him."
[/I]



Aside from the conclusion that Diomedes was rather metal, we observe the mindset here- that effectiveness in battle is a direct result of courage in battle, and of fighting with the 'proper' weapons and methods. Namely, forthright, direct, hand-to-hand clashes between warriors.


The Ulrican prohibition on guns is a direct consequence of other, pre-existing Ulrican beliefs about combat, survival, and the problems of relying on devices, trinkets, or technology to protect yourself.


Cults are not intractable or unreasonable, but certain things are not acceptable to them because they think those things are wrong because their gods prohibit them.

The cult of Morr is never going to be persuaded that it would be a good idea to raise some undead zombies or skeletons to use as a workforce. No matter what they will always oppose this, because it is deeply immoral and wicked within their viewpoint. Morr's entire reason for existing is to make sure the dead stay dead where they belong.

The cult of Sigmar is never going to be persuaded that Bretonnia is a greater and better human nation than the Empire. Because their entire reason for existence is to revere Sigmar and support the empire he founded.

The cult of Ranald is never going to be persuaded that actually, total submission to a complex law code is good and for the best. Because Ranald's reason for existence is to be the god of trickery, confusion, and manipulation.

The cult of Ulric is never going to be persuaded to adopt guns.
Yes, but to be fair Ulric is also a god of survival. As the common people worship him he is a lord of staying alive in the brutal world of Malus, so he is also probably not fond of guns on account of being untrustworthy pieces of garbage that leave you defenseless after a single shot.
 
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Yes, but to be fair Ulric is also a god of survival. As the common people worship him he is a lord of staying alive in the brutal world of Malus, so on that account he is also probably not found of guns on account of being untrustworthy pieces of garbage that leave you defenseless after a single shot.
Lets be fair, that only applies if you are dumb enough to use one as a solo weapon. Untrustworthy? yes. Garbage? I would not say so after the showings it has had. And being defenseless after firing one shot solo is a criticism that can be equally levied against the crossbow.
 
Lets be fair, that only applies if you are dumb enough to use one as a solo weapon. Untrustworthy? yes. Garbage? I would not say so after the showings it has had. And being defenseless after firing one shot solo is a criticism that can be equally levied against the crossbow.
plus a skilled and experienced gunmen can reload fast enough to get up to 3 or 4 shots of in minute
 
To be fair, making a shitload of reliable guns and leaving the province awash in them isn't a bad thing. Freddy has titles like "Count of Cannons" and "Graf of Guns" for a reason. We won't regret trying @mmgaballah 's idea, it just leaves us up to our asses in gunsmiths, which is not a bad thing for our purposes, since drowning our enemies in hot lead never gets old.
Eh

We are already using and producing as many guns as we can. Excess amounts will "fall off the wagon" as it were, where it ends up in the hands of chaos cultists or other places they don't belong, like Kislev's anti-tsarists. Our province loves guns, and since it's majority Ultican, I'm going to guess that they are more okay with guns than the Ulricans in say… middenland. We are at a comfortable spot as we are, no need to leap dick first into this pit of piranhas.
 
Eh

We are already using and producing as many guns as we can. Excess amounts will "fall off the wagon" as it were, where it ends up in the hands of chaos cultists or other places they don't belong, like Kislev's anti-tsarists. Our province loves guns, and since it's majority Ultican, I'm going to guess that they are more okay with guns than the Ulricans in say… middenland. We are at a comfortable spot as we are, no need to leap dick first into this pit of piranhas.
I mean, we're always gonna have some guns falling off the back of a truck. There's always a percentage of loss when you mass produce anything.

Also mass arming dissident populace in a neighboring polity? Come on, what are we, the CIA or something?

That has literally never worked. Not once. Especially when we also factor in religion.
 
Eh

We are already using and producing as many guns as we can. Excess amounts will "fall off the wagon" as it were, where it ends up in the hands of chaos cultists or other places they don't belong, like Kislev's anti-tsarists. Our province loves guns, and since it's majority Ultican, I'm going to guess that they are more okay with guns than the Ulricans in say… middenland. We are at a comfortable spot as we are, no need to leap dick first into this pit of piranhas.

Its how its said in a different thread. Worshipping a god is not a suicide pact. Just because they mostly hold to Ulric doesn't mean they can't use guns. They just can't really also be a priest of Ulric or Knight of Ulric at the same time, which majority of people just isn't.
 
Its how its said in a different thread. Worshipping a god is not a suicide pact. Just because they mostly hold to Ulric doesn't mean they can't use guns. They just can't really also be a priest of Ulric or Knight of Ulric at the same time, which majority of people just isn't.
Also mass arming dissident populace in a neighboring polity? Come on, what are we, the CIA or something?
What are you two even trying to say? Are you agreeing with me, adding context, or trying to correct something about my post?
 
Again, before we begin to arm the populaces of foreign Provinces, which are currently not trading with us, we should increase productivity, manufacturing capabilities and overall capacities.

No reason to plan something (no matter how unlikely or likely it is), only for our engineers to be completely overworked. Same thing as those ambitious Vapor Tank plans really.

Infrastructur first, trade/military second.
 
Again, before we begin to arm the populaces of foreign Provinces, which are currently not trading with us, we should increase productivity, manufacturing capabilities and overall capacities.

No reason to plan something (no matter how unlikely or likely it is), only for our engineers to be completely overworked. Same thing as those ambitious Vapor Tank plans really.

Infrastructur first, trade/military second.
We have three research actions, one of which is locked up. When the guns and engineering school of Ostland just started, in those early years, there had been a production upgrade action to meet weapon supply in the future.

I don't really see the need to increase productivity, manufacturing capabilities, and overall capacity. When stuff that is related to that does not seem to be obvious. Like how the blastweave upgraded our gun techs in an overall capacity way through later taken actions. How the Cult of Myrmidia may be able to aid our engineers productivity in a background kind of way, like how the Shallyans are in the background fighting Nurgle. Or how we have three Research actions, and this detail is likely overlooked to judge our Research productivity as inefficient.
 
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How the Cult of Myrmidia may be able to aid our engineers productivity in a background kind of way,
I honestly think we are better off encouraging cult to make an officer school in Ostland at some point, and they are currently desperate for support in Old World after their secret conspiracy was revealed and ultimately went nowhere.

I personally have no problem using that weakness to our benefit while also raising them up again.
 
Would people be okay with not building a Vapor Tank in Turn 39?

I'd prefer to reduce our Research backlog as much as we can before building a Vapor Tank, at most I only want a two turn delay before, (on third-turn-delay), we build a Vapor Tank.

The idea is to take the "Vaporcyclers", and "Heavy Blastguns", research actions in Turn 39. Then, in Turn 41, start building Vapor Tanks.

Vaporcyclers have economic potential on who we can sell them to, a market base outside the gun/cannon exclusive contracts. Which makes a market with a potential large customer base. Compared to our relatively small pool of Kislev, Hochland, Nordland, and Ostermark for guns and cannons. I consider vaporcyclers locked in because I'm interested in boosting the economy to afford Vapor Tanks.

Heavy Blastguns have a short research time. That's the major reason I want to take it instead of Vapor Tank, even though a Vapor Tank will complete with one year. Heavy Blastguns are a military upgrade that can boost Ostland's combat ability, and the combat ability of those we sell guns to, in a shorter duration than building Vapor Tanks can, if we choose to rent out any Vapor Tank at all. Approximately three years to get the Heavy Blastguns on offer to our allies. In that time we can build three vapor Tanks instead. That feels limiting.

Other reasons I want to take Heavy Blastguns are because of the research Times on the three known actions for Turn 39.
"Heavy Blastguns" has two years at 75% chance of success.
"Vaporcyclers" has four years at 50% chance of success.
"Imperial Organs, Big" has four years at 65% chance of success.
"Build a Vapor Tank" has one year, assumed guaranteed chance of success.

IF we build a Vapor Tank every turn, for the next seven turns, we'll have eight vapor tanks. In that time, we may have only one research action used on the research actions. In that time we will have used 6 turns, hopefully less, on a 2 year action + a 4 year action + 6 "Build a Vapor Tank", for a total of seven vapor tanks. I feel our time in the next four turns is better spent on getting the "Heavy Blastguns" upgrade, and "vaporcyclers", with two Vapor Tank building actions in the last of those four turns, for a total of three vapor tanks at the end of four more turns. Ostland gains an economic resource, and a military benefit our customers can benefit from won't be delayed for who knows how long, using three to five turns. The Vapor Tanks need to grow in number to be useful economically for rent (fighting-wise a single vapor tank cannot be everywhere), but what number do we need? Three Vapor Tanks? Twelve Vapor Tanks?
 
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I think the Vapor tank would follow the Greatship route, there'll be a cooldown period of sort (greatship can only be build either every 3-5 turns after one is completed.).

So we prob won't need to worry about missing upgrades and dedicate one action to building tanks forever.
 
I think that I'm gonna wait and see before I plan the research. All I can say is that I want more than one tank after all the work we put into it. I assume they're worth their cost and effort.
 
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Considering each vapor tank requires constant upkeep costs thats visible I don't think its economically feasible to build more than one for a long time. Ostland needs to focus on reducing as much forestry in the Forest of Shadows so that more than half of it is open farmlands.
 
I think the Vapor tank would follow the Greatship route, there'll be a cooldown period of sort (greatship can only be build either every 3-5 turns after one is completed.).

So we prob won't need to worry about missing upgrades and dedicate one action to building tanks forever.
That seems unlikely, torroar seems to be saying no cooldown period, similar to what the greatships used to have you are suggesting, is needed for the Vapor Tank.
Edit: I know greatships don't have a cooldown period in the present. They only take one year to build currently. They used to take a few years to build, I think. And we were constrained by number of ships in our docks.
No, it will take one year to make. It took years to formulate, design, stress test, and build the tools to make sure the various components worked. Building the engine, now that the engine is known and how it works, is a known thing. So is the frame, and the tank proper. However, now that all the various things are known/built/readied, it will take a year.

The cost will be in the money used to make one, the maintenance costs afterwards, and the fact that building it will not be a military action, it will be a Research Action, because it takes up a year's worth of valuable time/focus/energy directly from the engineers. Only the highest trained can actually build the things, as well as be trained as the crews for them.

Therefore, if you wish to build a Vapor Tank, that turn, you will effectively lose the ability to research another project that said action might have otherwise allowed. If you have blocked out research entirely, locking in maximum actions, then you quite simply cannot build another Vapor Tank - again, because of personnel issues.

I think that I'm gonna wait and see before I plan the research. All I can say is that I want more than one tank after all the work we put into it. I assume they're worth their cost and effort.
We will get more than one tank eventually. I cannot imagine the players putting that off forever. Either this turn, or if not this turn, then as soon as the research actions complete again.
 
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I think the Vapor tank would follow the Greatship route, there'll be a cooldown period of sort (greatship can only be build either every 3-5 turns after one is completed.).

So we prob won't need to worry about missing upgrades and dedicate one action to building tanks forever.
Err, no? We've had the option of building one Greatship per turn for a while now, since we upgraded our means of assembling warships after Karak Ungor.
Considering each vapor tank requires constant upkeep costs thats visible I don't think its economically feasible to build more than one for a long time. Ostland needs to focus on reducing as much forestry in the Forest of Shadows so that more than half of it is open farmlands.
A single Vapor Tank's maintenance is 150 Gild Crowns a turn. We could easily afford to build another one if we wanted to, and it wouldn't hurt our income much.
 
We will eventually probably run into the issue of "not enough engineers" but i think one for each army should be doable tbh.
 
A single Vapor Tank's maintenance is 150 Gild Crowns a turn. We could easily afford to build another one if we wanted to, and it wouldn't hurt our income much.
If we don't build a second Vapor Tank, that's 150 gold we save, for however long we take to start building more Vapor Tanks. Time we can take to build up our economy. The charcoal stewardship action is not a one turn action, it's two turns. The players do need to keep working on the lighthouse now that we started Morgan's passion project, so that's a lock on a stewardship action. The most likely chosen Stewardship actions are not expected to give us a net income boost as quickly as one turn, -150 gold crowns per turn vapor tank expenses at the end of one turn (or start of the next turn? money is confusing).

Leaving us diplomacy in the immediate present. At least the cyclers should make us some money. Reikland might have an diplomatic opportunity.

The biggest variable on our net income is the third research action is tied up, and generating profit. If we lose that profit, gain the third research action to pay research cost. We lose some net income security. This may be something to be concerned about as Elector's Meet time is near. Averland might have enough toys by now.
 
The biggest variable on our net income is the third research action is tied up, and generating profit. If we lose that profit, gain the third research action to pay research cost. We lose some net income security. This may be something to be concerned about as Elector's Meet time is near. Averland might have enough toys by now.
I hope so, I would rather free that third research action free than those 750 extra gold.
 
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