Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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What is kind of funny that this discussion has brought up is the ability or inability for the Empire to locate threats within its own borders. Now there have been some good examples of this through out the quest but one that was brought up relatively early on was that hidden city of undead down in Sylvania. It was explicitly mentioned that the Empire had no idea it even existed and only discovered it after like 3 years of consistent campaigning.

I mean Zacharias was a plague on Ostland for like 2 millennia before he recently died and I am almost positive that the Empire had no idea he had a whole city of necromancers and undead that he controlled tucked away in the Forest of Shadows.
 
You know what would be an awesome thing to advertise at Meet? Our wing-suits.

I'm honestly surprised we haven't had the option to sell them to others much at all to be honest... unless their unique nature makes non-Ostlanders wary of them.

Averland can use them to scout greenskins past Blackfire Pass for example.

We should certainly try to sell more exotic weapons in our actions/meetings since we don't do it nearly enough since would be great source of income.
 
In terms of asking Gunthar at the elector meet about the 2 dead armies. They died in the middle mountains. Ostland shares a border with the middle mountains and controls a small part of it. There is something in the middle mountains that can kill 2 armies. Ostland would very much like to know everything that Middenland knows about this potential threat. Hopefully the question gets dressed up politely as possible so we get an answer, but the question very much needs to be asked. Maybe get Big Magnus to lead the discussion in a way that is informing the other Elector Counts of this threat or something like that, just as along as we get the heads up about whatever the fug ganked 2 whole armies right next door.
 
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Markedpariah said:
What is kind of funny that this discussion has brought up is the ability or inability for the Empire to locate threats within its own borders. Now there have been some good examples of this through out the quest but one that was brought up relatively early on was that hidden city of undead down in Sylvania. It was explicitly mentioned that the Empire had no idea it even existed and only discovered it after like 3 years of consistent campaigning.

I mean Zacharias was a plague on Ostland for like 2 millennia before he recently died and I am almost positive that the Empire had no idea he had a whole city of necromancers and undead that he controlled tucked away in the Forest of Shadows.
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That is because they are not in the Empire's borders at all. Kinda like Laurelorn is not, and never was, part of the Empire whatever maps may show. The Empire's claim to those lands is as valid as Liechtenstein tomorrow proclaiming to own Antarctica, there is just zero ability to actually enforce that. And the Empire isn't stupid enough to try anyway, wouldn't have lasted this long if they were.
Cheap Orange Knofe said:
Heh it would be hilarious to send two vapor tanks to crush the location along side the army. Brass keep? Meet Steel Bull!
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You mean be crushed surely? Though Frederick should be wise enough to realize what a terrible idea it was and order a retreat before that.
 
Massgamer said:
We should certainly try to sell more exotic weapons in our actions/meetings since we don't do it nearly enough since would be great source of income.
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Really? Then we should take the vapor cycle research action this turn. It's usability as a scout unit makes it efficient and helpful to the whole empire instead of limited to our gun and cannon buyers.

Unless you think we should give up on the exotica tree for more gun and cannon upgrade. Or the Vapor Tank + Gun or Cannon Upgrade.
 
Marlin said:
Really? Then we should take the vapor cycle research action this turn. It's usability as a scout unit makes it efficient and helpful to the whole empire instead of limited to our gun and cannon buyers.
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Oh I agree, we should research that and more exotic weapons to sell in general.

I think it is a shame we haven't made/sold more dash volley guns for example as well.
xpentakill said:
The organ gun with three cannons looks super cool though. It looks something like Davy Jones would have in the pirates of the Caribbean.
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Those guns are more like the hellblaster you see in canon we haven't made yet.

What we have made and will make are basically organ guns the dwarfs use, a bunch of cannons lined up together firing at once. We made the dash volley gun which is five of them together and the great cannon one would be three cannons together.
 
@torroar I have an idea for how Freddy can overturn Ulrician gun control , first we must understand the pretext of why said Ulrician anti gun stance is in effect , its not anti technology as stuff like steel weapons and armor along with crossbows are embraced or accepted by Ulric and his folk nor is it because guns can some times explode on or fail the user either as armor gets sundered , swords break , crossbows jam and bow strings snap all the time so guns being unreliable in that sense is not special enough to justify the ban , so why then ? the Ulricain line that is the justification for the gun ban is about not trusting unreliable weapons so what makes gun more unreliable than all the other weapons I mentioned before and the answer is replaceability and ease of repair cause if your sword breaks you take it to a blacksmith , if your armor gets ruined you go to a armorer , if your crossbow gets jammed you go to an arbalest and so on and so forth all of these are not much of an issue since these are all common and wide spread services and business across the empire , but for guns though if your gun gets broken or needs replacing you have to go all the way to Nuln ,Altdorf or Wolfenburg to for replacement and repairs a difficult , dangerous and expensive trip for the common man hence why Ulricians consider guns unreliable .

Here is were Freddy comes in , as he is both a master blacksmith(by human standards) and a master engineer meaning that he knows and understands the limits a human crafts men can be educated and trained to as well as posses a complete understanding of how guns work and are made ,which means Freddy has all the requirements needed to invents a new trade craft that of the gunsmith with the end goal of having the craft become at least wide spread enough that each town and major village in the empire can boast about having at least one with the fullness of time thus over turning the reason for the Ulricaian ban on guns .

one change this could cause for example is the empire huntsmen unit could change from being a force of longbow men to a force of rifle men while compensating for the loss the the longbows advantages by having a larger unit size since its a lot easier to train someone to use a gun rather than a longbow and as demand for hunts men to prowl the depth of the forests the ever envelop the old world is always high
 
mmgaballah said:
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It's not about reliability, but honor.
Look up the intruduction and development of guns and blackpowder weaponry in feudal Japan from 1540 (start of the Nambam Trade) to the 1860's (Boshin war in 1868).

They can very much see the advantages and opportunities it brings, but it goes directly against their faith, tradition, way of life and norms.

Sometimes these things are more important. Especially in a feudal society and highly religious society. If your God says, that he does not like these weapons and your God is a metaphysical entity, capable of interacting with reality, then you do what your God says.

This has nothing to do with reliability and everything with personal honor and tradition.
 
@mmgaballah the cult of Ulric's big thing against guns and crowbows, it can be iffy for bows, is that it is deemed too easy to use to kill enemies, which makes the users weak. Their main thing is muscle power and strength so prefer things like melee combat since an extension of that.

This is an overall extension of the whole survival of the fittest mindset what with, 'Ulric's winters kill the weak and leave the strong' kinda thing.

This is why they dislike guns and crossbows since they take personal strength out of the equation, unlike say a bow which at least requires good muscles to use well.

From Wikia: "Black-powder weapons and crossbows are the weapons of cowards."
 
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Not to mention gods in malus are real.

You dont want to disappoint your patron god after all.

Let the Ulrics do their thing, we will just arm the rest who isnt restricted by it instead.
 
mmgaballah said:
@torroar I have an idea for how Freddy can overturn Ulrician gun control , first we must understand the pretext of why said Ulrician anti gun stance is in effect , its not anti technology as stuff like steel weapons and armor along with crossbows are embraced or accepted by Ulric and his folk nor is it because guns can some times explode on or fail the user either as armor gets sundered , swords break , crossbows jam and bow strings snap all the time so guns being unreliable in that sense is not special enough to justify the ban , so why then ? the Ulricain line that is the justification for the gun ban is about not trusting unreliable weapons so what makes gun more unreliable than all the other weapons I mentioned before and the answer is replaceability and ease of repair cause if your sword breaks you take it to a blacksmith , if your armor gets ruined you go to a armorer , if your crossbow gets jammed you go to an arbalest and so on and so forth all of these are not much of an issue since these are all common and wide spread services and business across the empire , but for guns though if your gun gets broken or needs replacing you have to go all the way to Nuln ,Altdorf or Wolfenburg to for replacement and repairs a difficult , dangerous and expensive trip for the common man hence why Ulricians consider guns unreliable .

Here is were Freddy comes in , as he is both a master blacksmith(by human standards) and a master engineer meaning that he knows and understands the limits a human crafts men can be educated and trained to as well as posses a complete understanding of how guns work and are made ,which means Freddy has all the requirements needed to invents a new trade craft that of the gunsmith with the end goal of having the craft become at least wide spread enough that each town and major village in the empire can boast about having at least one with the fullness of time thus over turning the reason for the Ulricaian ban on guns .

one change this could cause for example is the empire huntsmen unit could change from being a force of longbow men to a force of rifle men while compensating for the loss the the longbows advantages by having a larger unit size since its a lot easier to train someone to use a gun rather than a longbow and as demand for hunts men to prowl the depth of the forests the ever envelop the old world is always high
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Rise of the gunsmith huh?
 
mmgaballah said:
@torroar I have an idea for how Freddy can overturn Ulrician gun control , first we must understand the pretext of why said Ulrician anti gun stance is in effect , its not anti technology as stuff like steel weapons and armor along with crossbows are embraced or accepted by Ulric and his folk nor is it because guns can some times explode on or fail the user either as armor gets sundered , swords break , crossbows jam and bow strings snap all the time so guns being unreliable in that sense is not special enough to justify the ban , so why then ? the Ulricain line that is the justification for the gun ban is about not trusting unreliable weapons so what makes gun more unreliable than all the other weapons I mentioned before and the answer is replaceability and ease of repair cause if your sword breaks you take it to a blacksmith , if your armor gets ruined you go to a armorer , if your crossbow gets jammed you go to an arbalest and so on and so forth all of these are not much of an issue since these are all common and wide spread services and business across the empire , but for guns though if your gun gets broken or needs replacing you have to go all the way to Nuln ,Altdorf or Wolfenburg to for replacement and repairs a difficult , dangerous and expensive trip for the common man hence why Ulricians consider guns unreliable .

Here is were Freddy comes in , as he is both a master blacksmith(by human standards) and a master engineer meaning that he knows and understands the limits a human crafts men can be educated and trained to as well as posses a complete understanding of how guns work and are made ,which means Freddy has all the requirements needed to invents a new trade craft that of the gunsmith with the end goal of having the craft become at least wide spread enough that each town and major village in the empire can boast about having at least one with the fullness of time thus over turning the reason for the Ulricaian ban on guns .

one change this could cause for example is the empire huntsmen unit could change from being a force of longbow men to a force of rifle men while compensating for the loss the the longbows advantages by having a larger unit size since its a lot easier to train someone to use a gun rather than a longbow and as demand for hunts men to prowl the depth of the forests the ever envelop the old world is always high
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Please do not treat religious beliefs, preferences, and opinions, especially those that are not harmful, as problems to be solved or obstacles to be overcome.

It doesn't really matter why Ulricans don't want to use guns, their organization has made the decision to do so, and it's not our place, as players or Frederick, it interfere with it.

Remember, this is just a game.
 
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Czes said:
Look up the intruduction and development of guns and blackpowder weaponry in feudal Japan from 1540 (start of the Nambam Trade) to the 1860's (Boshin war in 1868).

They can very much see the advantages and opportunities it brings, but it goes directly against their faith, tradition, way of life and norms.
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The two I think are not comparable. The Japanese adopted the gun rapidly, because the people in charge wanted to win and took every advantage they could. Also in the Boshin War shogunate forces did use modern weapons, they just had less. Unlike what the Last Samurai would have you believe, samurai had no qualms with new weapons.
 
Czes said:
's not about reliability, but honor.
Look up the intruduction and development of guns and blackpowder weaponry in feudal Japan from 1540 (start of the Nambam Trade) to the 1860's (Boshin war in 1868).

They can very much see the advantages and opportunities it brings, but it goes directly against their faith, tradition, way of life and norms.
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um ... no , like the Japanese warlords during that famous hundred year civil war with all the samurai were major early adopters of fire arms to massive degree to the point that during the ill fated Japanese invasion of Korea that happened right after said war up to 25% of the invading Japanese forces were arquebusiers .

Massgamer said:
@mmgaballah the cult of Ulric's big thing against guns and crowbows, it can be iffy for bows, is that it is deemed too easy to use to kill enemies, which makes the users weak. Their main thing is muscle power and strength so prefer things like melee combat since an extension of that.

This is an overall extension of the whole survival of the fittest mindset what with, 'Ulric's winters kill the weak and leave the strong' kinda thing.

This is why they dislike guns and crossbows since they take personal strength out of the equation, unlike say a bow which at least requires good muscles to use well.

From Wikia: "Black-powder weapons and crossbows are the weapons of cowards."
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Restalaan said:
Not to mention gods in malus are real.

You dont want to disappoint your patron god after all.

Let the Ulrics do their thing, we will just arm the rest who isnt restricted by it instead.
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first of all Ulricians are fine with crossbows and even when they are not they still use them anyway cause being a devout follower of Ulric or any god is not a suicide pact cause people will use any and all means to protect their homes and families no matter what Ulric and his priests say , second the cult of Ulric is not intractable on the matter of fire arms other wise how the hell would Middenland have a cannon so massive it needs an enslaved giant to load it after all the only way such a thing could have been build in Ulric's holy city is if the cult was ok or at least ambivalent towards it plus we have already seen how the cults can be convinced to change their stances like recently with the cult of Rya on technology specifically the seed drill and finally Ulric is at his core is a god of war and survival so his followers are not the sort that will turn away any advantage they can find and that includes fire arms

torroar said:
they are more acceptable than gunpowder weaponry for more devout Ulricans and Taalites, meaning that you can recruit more people for the position than you otherwise could have. Plus, they are in use even in Middenland, for instance. Gunther may be quite Ulrican indeed, but he isn't so mad as to deny them – or even some handgunners – in his armies. It's time you bring back the loyal and useful crossbows of Ostland
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mmgaballah said:
first of all Ulricians are fine with crossbows and even when they are not they still use them anyway cause being a devout follower of Ulric or any god is not a suicide pact cause people will use any and all means to protect their homes and families no matter what Ulric and his priests say , second the cult of Ulric is not intractable on the matter of fire arms other wise how the hell would Middenland have a cannon so massive it needs an enslaved giant to load it after all the only way such a thing could have been build in Ulric's holy city is if the cult was ok or at least ambivalent towards it plus we have already seen how the cults can be convinced to change their stances like recently with the cult of Rya on technology specifically the seed drill and finally Ulric is at his core is a god of war and survival so his followers are not the sort that will turn away any advantage they can find and that includes fire arms
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You aren't wrong with those examples, but I prefer to avoid getting involved in any major religious upheavals/politics with one of the most powerful cults in the Empire in general, Freddy almost died fixing his last wrong decision there with the cult of Manann after all.

Can't we just be happy the Ulrician citizens of our province are alright using guns and crossbows when they join the army?
 
It is deeply humourous to me that the instant we resolve our issues with one cult some folks decide that diving in dick first into another religious trainwreck is in order.
 
my idea is not to directly go up to cult and demand change nor force the change upon them but instead to make guns easy to acquire ,replace and repair for the common man through the proliferation of gunsmith craftsmen across the empire thus gradually overturning(likely over decades) what I believe to be the main reason for the Ulrician ban on guns , from there the cult can do any changes they need on their own terms likely long after Freddy is dead
 
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Planning a slow death to a core Ulrican tenant is still a plan to undermine the cult. And that kind of planning won't exactly be subtle. And then it blows up and we once again come to blows against a cult.

Edit: Like, I get that you think that it being after freddy's tenure makes it better, but in character the option being done is Freddy deciding one day that he wants to destroy part of the Ulrican faith as his family legacy. At some point people are gonna ask hey man, why are you agitating about training more gunsmiths than you already are, isn't what we're doing enough and Freddy will only be able to reply 'I think that this will make Ulricans stop shunning guns' and that will cause capital-I issues.
 
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Daecl said:
Planning a slow death to a core Ulrican tenant is still a plan to undermine the cult. And that kind of planning won't exactly be subtle. And then it blows up and we once again come to blows against a cult.
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I don't think its a core Ulrician tent cause the cult of Ulric existed before the advent of black powder there for the ban against must have been added later , second the cult of Ulric has no business with guns becoming more available to the common man just because there religious scriptures don't approve after all there are plenty of other gods in the empire whose followers don't mind using black powder weapons so the cult has no business interfering in their affairs , third we already saw something like this happen in the quest with the cult of Rya and the seed drill despite the cult doctrine being against technology they neither intervened nor worked against the device being spread to the farming communities of the Trident and when Freddy had a sit down with the cults matriarch in Ostland she when like "sure ok , consider the tech ban overturned" so the cults are neither intractable nor unreasonable nor opposed to logical and reasonable change
 
To be fair, making a shitload of reliable guns and leaving the province awash in them isn't a bad thing. Freddy has titles like "Count of Cannons" and "Graf of Guns" for a reason. We won't regret trying @mmgaballah 's idea, it just leaves us up to our asses in gunsmiths, which is not a bad thing for our purposes, since drowning our enemies in hot lead never gets old.

I just don't think it'll have the effect @mmgaballah expects, because I think Mmgaballah fundamentally misunderstands why the Ulricans reject guns.

He seems to think it's because guns are unreliable or hard to repair. No.

It's because Ulric is a god of primal violence, the struggle for survival, and "nature red in tooth and claw." The use of complex technological artifacts to kill, especially in ways that don't require physical strength, skill, and endurance? That's not something Ulric is going to approve of. To Ulric, you should kill your enemies face-to-face, or at worst by piercing them with an arrow you loosed from a bow that you drew using your own mighty biceps and heroic pectoral muscles. Using some gizmo to take down an enemy is contemptible to Ulric.

Ulric's view on ranged weaponry is best described in more conventional fiction, I think, by Diomedes from Homer's Iliad. The text goes something like this.


As he spoke he began stripping the spoils from the son of Paeon, but Paris, husband of lovely Helen, aimed an arrow at him, leaning against a pillar of the monument which men had raised to Ilus son of Dardanus, a ruler in days of old. Diomedes had taken the cuirass from off the breast of Agastrophus, his heavy helmet also, and the shield from off his shoulders, when Paris drew his bow and let fly an arrow that sped not from his hand in vain, but pierced the flat of Diomedes' right foot, going right through it and fixing itself in the ground. Thereon Paris with a hearty laugh sprang forward from his hiding-place, and taunted him, saying "You are wounded- my arrow has not been shot in vain; would that it had hit you in the belly and killed you, for thus the Trojans, who fear you as goats fear a lion, would have had a truce from evil!"

Diomedes, all undaunted, answered, "Archer, you who without your bow are nothing, slanderer and seducer, if you were to be tried in single combat fighting in full armour, your bow and your arrows would serve you in little stead. Vain is your boast in that you have scratched the sole of my foot. I care no more than if a girl or some silly boy had hit me. A worthless coward can inflict but a light wound; when I wound a man though I but graze his skin it is another matter, for my weapon will lay him low. His wife will tear her cheeks for grief and his children will be fatherless: there will he rot, reddening the earth with his blood, and vultures, not women, will gather round him."[/I]


Aside from the conclusion that Diomedes was rather metal, we observe the mindset here- that effectiveness in battle is a direct result of courage in battle, and of fighting with the 'proper' weapons and methods. Namely, forthright, direct, hand-to-hand clashes between warriors.

mmgaballah said:
I don't think its a core Ulrician tent cause the cult of Ulric existed before the advent of black powder there for the ban against must have been added later
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The Ulrican prohibition on guns is a direct consequence of other, pre-existing Ulrican beliefs about combat, survival, and the problems of relying on devices, trinkets, or technology to protect yourself.

second the cult of Ulric has no business with guns becoming more available to the common man just because there religious scriptures don't approve after all there are plenty of other gods in the empire whose followers don't mind using black powder weapons so the cult has no business interfering in their affairs , third we already saw something like this happen in the quest with the cult of Rya and the seed drill despite the cult doctrine being against technology they neither intervened nor worked against the device being spread to the farming communities of the Trident and when Freddy had a sit down with the cults matriarch in Ostland she when like "sure ok , consider the tech ban overturned" so the cults are neither intractable nor unreasonable nor opposed to logical and reasonable change
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Cults are not intractable or unreasonable, but certain things are not acceptable to them because they think those things are wrong because their gods prohibit them.

The cult of Morr is never going to be persuaded that it would be a good idea to raise some undead zombies or skeletons to use as a workforce. No matter what they will always oppose this, because it is deeply immoral and wicked within their viewpoint. Morr's entire reason for existing is to make sure the dead stay dead where they belong.

The cult of Sigmar is never going to be persuaded that Bretonnia is a greater and better human nation than the Empire. Because their entire reason for existence is to revere Sigmar and support the empire he founded.

The cult of Ranald is never going to be persuaded that actually, total submission to a complex law code is good and for the best. Because Ranald's reason for existence is to be the god of trickery, confusion, and manipulation.

The cult of Ulric is never going to be persuaded to adopt guns.
 
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