Huh, since the chances were so low I never voted for the intruge action about Dolph but seeing this I am tempted. Mostly because Gunthar is an idiot that made himself our enemy.

I wonder if that option will show up again. I might vote for it still just to stick to him.


I avoid the option mostly because the chance is so low, and rolling badly would quite probably start a Civil war if Gunthar feels threatened. Not worth it at all imo.



From this post I can only reach the conclusion that asking Gunthar directly about Dolph is better than asking about the Middle Mountains.

As you said Gunthar cannot let the truth of Dolph be known, otherwise he can suffer legitimacy problems. What Gunthar can do instead of "bring out the knives" is spin a lie he wants to tell, that "truth" he can tell Freddy. Gunthar can also seek a definitive end to an Ostland investigation into Middenland by just telling Freddy to not look into it. This conclusion seems far less likely to become hostile than your conclusion about the Middle Mountains failed expedition.

@torroar can we have Sabine and Natasha's opinions on directly asking Gunthar about Dolph, or the Middenland failed Middle Mountains expedition? Can we expect Gunthar to blow up in our face based on In-character knowledge? This seems like something those women would be able to advise Freddy on.


"Yes let me tell my biggest political enemy the secret that would doom me and my family and get us unseated of our position as soon as it hit the rumor mill." He would 100% not only not tell us, but start swinging either attacking us personally outright going for the kill, start setting up assassins or march his armies at us. Because he would see it as a threat to him and his family entire. Fucking let it drop. Do not poke the bear. Unkless you want the empire coming apart for the mere gratification of your curiousity.
 
We ask for a meeting with Gunthar and for an Arbitrator of Verena to be present to arbitrate the discussion in private. It's how the articles of the division of the middle mountains has been drawn up. It was his idea to draw it up that way. We make our case for more information, the Arbitrator decides if it is a reasonable request, and we abide by that decision.if decided that we do have a reasonable claim to need to know what happened and if Gunther doesn't abide by this decision, it can be argued that he is in violation of the articles and we will be within our right to ask of a public investigation by the Knights Griffon. All nice and legal.
Overcompensate to assure that this doesn't result in more of a blood feud, that could work on some level, he'll still see us in the worst light but bringing a faith that neither of them are aligned to but respect could help in avoiding it turning into another incident. Also Big Magnus would appreciate not having to intervene on another Elector Count incident between Ostland and Middenland and having them and us act like F**KING adults about it, maybe we can at least cool down the feud into something more manageable and not something that will lead to a legendary Ostland vs Middenland rivalry that will appear at the worst times to cause us problems.

But yeah, definetly not ask about Dolph, it's a sore family matter along with the intrigue thing.
 
This might be a cruel overreaction idea.... but how would people feel if Magnus sent Karola for a term among the Sisters of Sigmar? That would beat any weakness/fear of fighting out of her.

Like said, this is an extreme idea and barely even mean it, just something that was in head considering for other idea of asking GT if the Sisters would want to set up branch of themselves in Ostland to combat influence of Iceborn Flame and to work in province that gave birth to Witch Hunters.
 
Given their natural magic resistance it likely wouldn't have helped much.

I mean. It ain't immunity. Dwarfs can definitely still be affected by magic. Woulda been a whole different War of Vengeance if every time the elves used magic it just sorta plinked off.

Oh i know. We actually even talked to them in person iirc, but that might've been a different monastery. I meant more the undead horde that emerged to fight the beastmen. There is enough unaffiliated undead that it need not be some weird fuckery.

Oh, yes indeed. Dhar pooling in certain areas can just spontaneously raise the dead. It's why there are independent Wight Kings at all, and some undead just wake up or form without any necromancers being involved at all. See things like banshees, certain spirits, mournguls, etc. Sylvania, being itself, is ripe for that sort of thing to just...happen.
 
I mean. It ain't immunity. Dwarfs can definitely still be affected by magic. Woulda been a whole different War of Vengeance if every time the elves used magic it just sorta plinked off.
Would certainly be funnier!

But yeah, dwarfs can be affected by magic, just takes more than usual, like how Wolfgang is powerful enough to heal dwarfs but takes more effort for them than humans. I think part of it is them stubbornly preventing their bodies from changing against their wills, the same thing that lets them live so long if they choose despite crippling injury or age.

I swear, dwarf stubbornness is magic in of itself.

Its totally different when they actively try to channel magic, like how the Chaos Dwarfs will legit turn to stone if they use too much of the stuff.
 
This might be a cruel overreaction idea.... but how would people feel if Magnus sent Karola for a term among the Sisters of Sigmar? That would beat any weakness/fear of fighting out of her.

Like said, this is an extreme idea and barely even mean it, just something that was in head considering for other idea of asking GT if the Sisters would want to set up branch of themselves in Ostland to combat influence of Iceborn Flame and to work in province that gave birth to Witch Hunters.

Nah. Her sister seems to have it figured out. Either that of ship her off to the doves. there is no sense traumatizing the girl further. She might have to learn when to turn things over to her sister, but I think the over all problem has been addressed for now.
 
So I know that Malagor is smart and the beast paths are pretty well hidden but I still find it hard to believe that massive Uber army of Beastmen he's building hasn't been fully discovered by now I mean if the cinematics of the total war dlc are anything to go by then the heart of darkness is the Dead woods of Ostermark:


I mean how have Ortrud's patrols not noticed the massive buildup of Beastmen? That to me means either Ortrud's patrols have been slacking or as some people have suggested the Beastmen are using part of the abandoned dwarf underway to move around.
 
So I know that Malagor is smart and the beast paths are pretty well hidden but I still find it hard to believe that massive Uber army of Beastmen he's building hasn't been fully discovered by now I mean if the cinematics of the total war dlc are anything to go by then the heart of darkness is the Dead woods of Ostermark:


I mean how have Ortrud's patrols not noticed the massive buildup of Beastmen? That to me means either Ortrud's patrols have been slacking or as some people have suggested the Beastmen are using part of the abandoned dwarf underway to move around.

Are you serious?

Zray, please stop using Total War Warhammer and videos you find on youtube as 100% evidence in quests.
 
Are you serious?

Zray, please stop using Total War Warhammer and videos you find on youtube as 100% evidence in quests.

I don't see why I should. As the quest has used a variety of sources for its basis. And from what I could tell the heart of the dark was never given a canonical location before the game. The only mention of it was a single article in the 7ed Beastmen book and it didn't say where it was.
 
I don't see why I should. As the quest has used a variety of sources for its basis. And from what I could tell the heart of the dark was never given a canonical location before the game. The only mention of it was a single article in the 7ed Beastmen book and it didn't say where it was.
Because you are stating this stuff as though it is fact, and thus our discussion and decisions should treat it as such. With stuff like that, it is Torroar's decision; that was made long after Torroar started the quest, it is guaranteed to not have influenced his original decision on wherever the Heart is.

Random stuff on the Internet in a world like Warhammer that is not backed up by IC fact does not make it canon. Anyone can say any interpretation of something they want, that doesn't mean everyone else has the same opinion.

Coming in and saying the Heart of Darkness is in Ostermark's Dead Woods because this computer game says so is just, kind of annoying and presumptuous.

Not only is it misleading, it's rude to just arbitrarily assign canonocity to someone's quest.
 
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Okay. Let's do this now.

I have shown, multiple times in multiple posts, of various places of build-up. You know what has featured most heavily, especially with Malagor himself repeatedly named and placed? The Drakwald. You know where the Drakwald is? THE DRAKWALD. You know where that isn't? Ostermark. Or the Forest of Arden, where Morghur is known to be. Or the World's Edge Mountains, where others are. Or the Labyrinth where others are. Or any of the other provinces that were mentioned in the updates. You know where NONE of those places are? OSTERMARK.

Also, do not tell me where the Heart of Darkness is based on something that just was released, when you KNOW I've been building this Beastmen thing up for a while now, long before the DLC was announced, and by now it should be relatively known enough that I try to do at least a modicum of research and development on things? You really think I haven't already done some stuff with it? Maybe the reason I haven't publicly posted about it in the quest much at all is because it's the greatest holy beastmen site and I don't want to give any hints, suggestions, notes, or anything else until it is time to do so by my own process and decision making.

It's pretty easy to know how Ortrud's patrols are missing the massive build-ups that are explicitly in the deepest parts of the forests that most humans never go to. Because they're in the deepest parts of the forest that most humans never go to, and then some, because that is explicitly how most of the beastmen in Warhammer do their thing. Being in the parts of the forest that are devoid, utterly, of humanity. Another way to know this is because Malagor has been flitting around to different places, as is his wont, but most importantly how are they missing Malagor's movements and the build up of that force that's been explicitly noted to be based in the depths of the Drakwald and in the Black Pit? Why, because he's NOT. IN. OSTERMARK.

Or maybe he has been, and I haven't shown you guys that, because you got a bunch of freebie posts about things. Maybe he's been in every single one of the provinces, and the beastmen have been able to be hidden because that is explicitly what they do, and that they're doing it in certain places around that are very hard for humans to just stumble on even in the best of circumstances.

I enjoy Total War Warhammer II. It's one of my favorite games of all time. I'm literally going to play some tomorrow.

But this? This is not the way. There is build-up, and then there is build-up. The Beastmen are using plenty of ways to hide themselves. And the fact that I have to come out and say that is frustrating, because I know that I have given plenty of information by this point as to how they are remaining out of sight of the greater world. Beast-Paths, depths of the forest traditionally passable only be the Beastmen, the Labyrinth, so many, many things. Magic. The Dark Gods. Places where humans straight up do not go, and have never been, and have never seen, and have never heard of. All of the capabilities of the Beastmen turned to such purposes.

Just...come on. Come on.
 
@Zrayz10 has a long habit of using YouTube videos on Warhammer as proof positive that such content is mirrored exactly in quests. I get loving Warhammer, god knows it's consumed a part of my being, but that's not educating anyone, it's shoving things onto them.
 
Okay. Let's do this now.

I have shown, multiple times in multiple posts, of various places of build-up. You know what has featured most heavily, especially with Malagor himself repeatedly named and placed? The Drakwald. You know where the Drakwald is? THE DRAKWALD. You know where that isn't? Ostermark. Or the Forest of Arden, where Morghur is known to be. Or the World's Edge Mountains, where others are. Or the Labyrinth where others are. Or any of the other provinces that were mentioned in the updates. You know where NONE of those places are? OSTERMARK.

Also, do not tell me where the Heart of Darkness is based on something that just was released, when you KNOW I've been building this Beastmen thing up for a while now, long before the DLC was announced, and by now it should be relatively known enough that I try to do at least a modicum of research and development on things? You really think I haven't already done some stuff with it? Maybe the reason I haven't publicly posted about it in the quest much at all is because it's the greatest holy beastmen site and I don't want to give any hints, suggestions, notes, or anything else until it is time to do so by my own process and decision making.

It's pretty easy to know how Ortrud's patrols are missing the massive build-ups that are explicitly in the deepest parts of the forests that most humans never go to. Because they're in the deepest parts of the forest that most humans never go to, and then some, because that is explicitly how most of the beastmen in Warhammer do their thing. Being in the parts of the forest that are devoid, utterly, of humanity. Another way to know this is because Malagor has been flitting around to different places, as is his wont, but most importantly how are they missing Malagor's movements and the build up of that force that's been explicitly noted to be based in the depths of the Drakwald and in the Black Pit? Why, because he's NOT. IN. OSTERMARK.

Or maybe he has been, and I haven't shown you guys that, because you got a bunch of freebie posts about things. Maybe he's been in every single one of the provinces, and the beastmen have been able to be hidden because that is explicitly what they do, and that they're doing it in certain places around that are very hard for humans to just stumble on even in the best of circumstances.

I enjoy Total War Warhammer II. It's one of my favorite games of all time. I'm literally going to play some tomorrow.

But this? This is not the way. There is build-up, and then there is build-up. The Beastmen are using plenty of ways to hide themselves. And the fact that I have to come out and say that is frustrating, because I know that I have given plenty of information by this point as to how they are remaining out of sight of the greater world. Beast-Paths, depths of the forest traditionally passable only be the Beastmen, the Labyrinth, so many, many things. Magic. The Dark Gods. Places where humans straight up do not go, and have never been, and have never seen, and have never heard of. All of the capabilities of the Beastmen turned to such purposes.

Just...come on. Come on.


I am sorry Torraor, I really am. Sadly for every quester that can read subtext there is a another that needs to have everything spoon fed to them because they lack the critical thinking skill needed to parse the quest. For every person who tries to read you rather amazing lore, there is another who speed reads and assumes that everything he needs to know is in the game or first ten sentences. I think i can speak for most of the audience where we understand that the Beastmen, by virtue of thriving where mankind cannot go, in combination with Malagor's immense magical might and the gates, were REALLY REALLY good at hiding. Coupled with him continuously feeding off Dross to make sure we're unaware of the bigger threat, his elites and main army, it'd be hard to know something was wrong if we were not paying close attention, but even then we can't really DO anything about it until he shows his hand or we get stupidly lucky scouting it out. Most of us understand that.

However this Zray guy seems to think that because of a video game, one which you've already said will not be followed 1 to 1 in quest, says something that it must be true in quest, without actually reading to make sure it is true. This isn't a flaw on your part, it's someone with a desire to bring order to chaos trying to jam a square block into a round hole and then complaining it does not work. I understand the frustration. I was frustrated reading the post. But getting frustrated with someone who clearly either hasn't read the quest or just doesn't care is not worth it.
 
Just...come on. Come on.
I don't know who said what and I'm not going to ask. But I will say that I love this quest I found it a little after the Karack Ungor campaign and have been hooked ever since. I'm sorry that some people KEEP trying to tell you how to do your work despite your more than proven track record. The only suggestion I can make is perhaps placing posts like this one above in an information or index list so you can just refer all the people who are hard of listening instead of having to go over the same information over and over.
 
I don't know who said what and I'm not going to ask. But I will say that I love this quest I found it a little after the Karack Ungor campaign and have been hooked ever since. I'm sorry that some people KEEP trying to tell you how to do your work despite your more than proven track record. The only suggestion I can make is perhaps placing posts like this one above in an information or index list so you can just refer all the people who are hard of listening instead of having to go over the same information over and over.
It's not a matter of being up to date with info, it's an individual issue.
 
Well torroar did update the front page with the massive white text back during the Marienburg thing and when he spent half a year or more with the build up with beastmen so its a mix.
Well, yes, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. The latest problem is not from someone not paying attention to context or reading between the lines, but an individual's tendency.
 
Well, in an attempt to change topics.

Are the Cult of Gazul more prominent in dwarf society after Karak Ungor? An ancestor god made an confirmed reappearance after they left to parts unknown. Only the rumor mill has been rather lax about their presence in an obvious way. We've seen the cult in the background with trying to recreate the brew. A mercenary group who answered Freddy's merc call.

Was Gazul's act of aid to Fredddy, which helped kill Ungrim, a reason dwarfs don't take up the slayer oath so thoughtlessly? Or was a reason what Freddy said to that one dwarf mercenary leader, and what the dwarf stone-souled told others?

Perhaps the dwarves who heard of these events, saw Gazul give the Slayers greater respect than a moment of simple shame most dwarves had been using the Slayer oath for incredibly simple moments.
 
The thing is I want the interaction, the conversation. I never want to discourage anyone from participating, from doing what they can to contribute to the discussion, to bring up ideas to debate around, or even just talking about Warhammer in general due to the whole 'this being a Warhammer quest' thing. And yes, some things from Total War I use, but not everything. Not even that super much, in the long run. Just some bits and pieces, here and there. Some things are literally in limbo, such as certain End Times details about certain people, places, and things. And will remain that way until I firmly decide on them. But in this case, this just seems like a bit of a mental skip. Which is fine. It happens to me plenty of times. A lot of times when Mass sends me some corrections to do in PM, I flat out don't remember writing some of the sentences and have to go back and reread myself.

But Beastmen have been plaguing the Old World and beyond for thousands of years. They did it right up until the End Times happened. Assuming that it is so easy, so simple, to simply 'locate them' through patrols is a non-starter. Largely, patrols are to keep the claimed spaces of humanity as safe as possible. Not to try and deeply dive into the centers of the forests to get at the beastmen in terrain unsuitable for cavalry or artillery where the Beastmen hold nearly every possible advantage. So there is no reason whatsoever to be confused that no patrols have somehow managed to push all the way to the Black Pit in the Drakwald and then see everything happening there and then turn around to run to Middenheim. There is no reason to be confused, or to claim incompetence, when the patrols of Talabecland don't locate the secretly hidden entrance in the depths of the forest to the Labyrinth and infiltrate and then escape back to Talabheim with news. There is no reason to decide that the most well-hidden and most holy of herdstones in the existence of the Beastmen is something that 1. Is simply located in Ostermark this whole time and that no one in 2500+ years was good enough to find it ever because it's easy or 2. That it's going to be somewhere that a brand new DLC to a video game releasing a day or two ago is going to overwrite something that I've been writing for and posting openly about for several IRL months. There is no reason to decide that everyone who hasn't suddenly stumbled upon this multi-year long hidden campaign led by the most powerful of Beastmen is something that will simply be revealed by regular old forest and road patrols that never did anything of the sort in, again, 2500+ years of the existence of the Empire. Maybe the Heart of Darkness is in Ostermark. Maybe it's not. You will never be able to force me to tell you where it is until actions, dice rolls, and narrative causality make it so.

I love to have someone discuss Warhammer stuff openly in the thread, to bring up conversation, to do all that sort of thing with. And I think that @Zrayz10 does a fine enough job of that. I appreciate your participation very much, I appreciate the participation of everyone who elect's to take some time out of their day, even if it's only a few seconds, to do so. But in this case, I do have to say that this one was not so great. Maybe next time though. Sorry for blowing up a bit, and if I was discouraging. Next time, instead of declaring what is or isn't canon based on Total War, just...ask? If I'm using the info from Total War? Like, 'Are you using Total War Warhammer's location of the Heart of Darkness?' I could answer and say 'That information is need to know only, and I wouldn't be able to say if it was or wasn't.' And that could be that, you know?

Are the Cult of Gazul more prominent in dwarf society after Karak Ungor? An ancestor god made an confirmed reappearance after they left to parts unknown. Only the rumor mill has been rather lax about their presence in an obvious way. We've seen the cult in the background with trying to recreate the brew. A mercenary group who answered Freddy's merc call.

Was Gazul's act of aid to Fredddy, which helped kill Ungrim, a reason dwarfs don't take up the slayer oath so thoughtlessly? Or was a reason what Freddy said to that one dwarf mercenary leader, and what the dwarf stone-souled told others?

Perhaps the dwarves who heard of these events, saw Gazul give the Slayers greater respect than a moment of simple shame most dwarves had been using the Slayer oath for incredibly simple moments.

1. Not really, no. They're in the same boat of the Cult of Morr a lot of the time, they don't have much of a desire to be 'more prominent' in society. It's great that he showed up again, and people are excited about that, but for the most part, it's not as big a deal as one of the Big Three showing up again. Gazul largely only does stuff with the dead. The living dwarfs would love some help in staying that way, which Gazul doesn't precisely have as much skin in the game, yeah?
2. Mixture of many things, this is something I think doesn't require me flatly telling ya'll. It's not a hard one to finagle out of the available information and knowing the cultural information provided through the quest's postings.
 
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I honestly would not be surprised it the Heart of Darkness has some weird space/time warping shit going on to it like the deep forests of the Wood Elves, but super evil of course. How it is only reached through certain ways by beastmen going through beast-paths and such that not even they are aware of to a location that is both there and isn't.

But yeah, no reason to assume it just anywhere or other stuff being totally canon just cause its in a video game since WHF is infamously inconsistent.
 
It's entirely possible there's some other Holy Beastman site in Ostermark that we just haven't heard of similar to the Blood Fane, but it's not the Heart of Darkness.
 
How big of a crit would we need to locate it hypothetically?

Step1: be in right province
Step2: be actively looking for brass keep
Step3:have beastmen specialist hunter amber mage/taal cleric. Or wood elf hunter
Step6: crit roll patrol/search
Profit?
 
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