Eh, I'm not too keen on spending more time in Marienburg, don't really see what could be gained or done with it besides some fluff or potential future mercenaries who we don't yet need. I'd much rather return to Ostland and get back to work, maybe we even return soon enought to participate in some of the fighting. It's been way too long since we've seen Freddy and Oskana in action together.
There has been a lot of discussion about the benefits we could only get on this trip. Maybe you could read them? For example, we could get information on Norsca and why there are no raiders. Or Kislev, who we don't get reliable information on but know that a civil war is brewing.
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You also know that Evangeline Hertwig, Sword of Justice and a quite formidable woman herself, will be in the merchant city along with at least some of her Owls.
So Evangeline is here, any ideas on what she's doing? We thought she was there to keep our talks with the priestess civil, but she wasn't there for that at all. She wasn't even there for the keelhauling, which was the biggest event in the city. So I'm curious, why she here?
 
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The Treaty of Amity and Commerce was specifically about the new trade with the New World, so Lustria and the like. Marienburg is the only place in the Old World that high elves can sell Lustrian goods in. It is not a restriction saying the only Old World power Ulthuan can trade with is Marienburg. Ulthuan had been trading with all Old World nations for centuries or millennia by the time of the Treaty and there is no way they would've set their many financially, diplomatically, and politically important trade routes to the torch.

Ulthuan trading directly with Ostland breaks no treaty unless some of the goods came from the New World.
 
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So I read this over several days. I broadly enjoyed it and given its length though I'd note a few bits. Firstly, I broadly agree with points previously brought up, eg issues with pacing, but as mentioned this has been brought up before.

I particularly enjoyed the descriptions in certain parts, for example the lava scene in Ungor was cool. However, I've often found the torture porn parts whenever Fredrick gets tortured to be quite tiresome. There's only so many times you can read 'his spine got torn out but he was fine' without the tension being entirely scattered.

I'd bring up a couple of broad criticisms. Firstly, the use of magic seems to be far too easy generally. Yes the various ice mages have had various negative effects, but I'd also liked to have seen something more negative which would have emphasised the winds of magic being so chaotic etc. Currently the narrative elements of magic are often lost (which I know sounds weird consider Natasha etc). For example, say a jade wizard has to overcast something because the training got out of hand and instead of it working find they explode or turn into a chaos spawn. Otherwise the dramatic nature of magic is avoided which I think is to the detriment of the story.

Having said that I do find some of the social aspects of the various transformations quite interesting, though perhaps less well explored that I'd like.

On a point regarding politics and something that came up recently, I'd like to see more consequences of Fredrick's lack of pride. The character has been effectively characterised as self-sacrificing, willing to go to unnecessary lengths to safeguard his people, that sort of thing. That's fine and is a joint result of his characterisation and of the general discussions in thread (apparently, I haven't been here reading for 6 years after all), however this humbleness would realistically result in people not taking him seriously. In a medival society based on concepts which modern societies don't have insults against the dignity of a person can be perceived to insult the state in general and threaten the social fabric. Sometimes this is fisher king logic, bad king=bad things happening eg famines, other times this is merely various other political figures observing that an individual doesn't defend themselves and can therefore be taken advantage of. There's various examples of this in the quest so far, but I think the most egregious example is the witch hunters who've largely gone unchallenged and have (potentially, Im not the author so don't know) therefore ignored the Count and not bothered to inform him about important matters.

In any case its difficult to assess things like this given the extreme length of the story, but those are my thoughts.
 
So Evangeline is here, any ideas on what she's doing? We thought she was there to keep our talks with the priestess civil, but she wasn't there for that at all. She wasn't even there for the keelhauling, which was the biggest event in the city. So I'm curious, why she here?

I could say that the very threat of her being in the city was the biggest thing that she could do, by virtue of the fact that being present and therefore anything even suspected of being untoward regarding the proceedings could be highly scrutinized was quite a bit. If anything should have gone wrong, or even suspected, it could be a very, very major issue, therefore enforcing obedience and caution by simple presence. This would be true. I could say that, 'biggest event in Marienburg' is not true, there are many big things happening in a city like this all the time, and Evangeline does have other responsibilities and goals. That some of her Owls were in the crowds in disguise while she was off doing something on her own with her own retinue.

But none of that would be as true as the fact that I just straight up forgot to put her there in the crowd, and have stupidly forgot to include her in the voting options of 'things to possibly do'.

So uh, gonna go back and fix that now. >.>
 
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I have a suggestion for @spudman whereas I really like your plan I think that we should not put the [] If you have any energy leftover (and along the way through these other areas) scour the markets for artifacts, technology, flora or fauna that your wizards and engineers might be able to use to improve the lot of Ostland at the end of the plan, it should be placed either just before or after [] Be on the lookout for gifts for our family. Perhaps look for something ideally wizardly for Adira to show our gratitude, or would that be gauche? Ask Natasha. ...

My reasoning is that since we have put the action for looking for gifts as one of the first things to do because we plan to search for them as we move along the different districts of marienburg, it would make much more sense to put the action of looking for artifacts, technology, flora or fauna at a similar level of priority to actually search for those things as we travel through the city, instead of leaving that action for last... I mean as it is redacted now it seems like we are traveling though Marienburg and one we are finished we will have to travel through Marienburg again looking for artifacts, technology, flora or fauna.
 
I could say that the very threat of her being in the city was the biggest thing that she could do, by virtue of the fact that being present and therefore anything even suspected of being untoward regarding the proceedings could be highly scrutinized was quite a bit. If anything should have gone wrong, or even suspected, it could be a very, very major issue, therefore enforcing obedience and caution by simple presence.
Called it!
 
So, now that Fredrick knows of the dangers and pains of keelhauling, is he going to include that in his family's training schedule? Given his habit of repeatedly butting heads with everything that nearly killed him in the past, I'm expecting Freddy to take his family on monthly trips to the coast for a milder keelhauling, maybe start off with a sloop that just got back from patrol.
 
On a point regarding politics and something that came up recently, I'd like to see more consequences of Fredrick's lack of pride. The character has been effectively characterised as self-sacrificing, willing to go to unnecessary lengths to safeguard his people, that sort of thing. That's fine and is a joint result of his characterisation and of the general discussions in thread (apparently, I haven't been here reading for 6 years after all), however this humbleness would realistically result in people not taking him seriously. In a medival society based on concepts which modern societies don't have insults against the dignity of a person can be perceived to insult the state in general and threaten the social fabric. Sometimes this is fisher king logic, bad king=bad things happening eg famines, other times this is merely various other political figures observing that an individual doesn't defend themselves and can therefore be taken advantage of. There's various examples of this in the quest so far, but I think the most egregious example is the witch hunters who've largely gone unchallenged and have (potentially, Im not the author so don't know) therefore ignored the Count and not bothered to inform him about important matters.
Something to take into account is that in the Medieval Society the monsters that are an everyday reality on this setting does not exist IRL... And when a crazy motherfucker is capable of killing by himself several creatures capable of annihilating armies, you will need to take him seriously, no matter how humble he seems, because in this case is is impossible to mistake his humbleness for weakness...
 
So, now that Fredrick knows of the dangers and pains of keelhauling, is he going to include that in his family's training schedule? Given his habit of repeatedly butting heads with everything that nearly killed him in the past, I'm expecting Freddy to take his family on monthly trips to the coast for a milder keelhauling, maybe start off with a sloop that just got back from patrol.
Don't think you really get better at surviving keelhauling by doing more of it, or at least I wouldn't imagine so. The training they currently do seems more about learning to fight and to do so even when your intestines are falling out.
 
So, now that Fredrick knows of the dangers and pains of keelhauling, is he going to include that in his family's training schedule? Given his habit of repeatedly butting heads with everything that nearly killed him in the past, I'm expecting Freddy to take his family on monthly trips to the coast for a milder keelhauling, maybe start off with a sloop that just got back from patrol.

No, he's not. I'm positive. It doesn't help prepare them for anything.
 
[X] Inform Maghda of Entire Tri-Claw Compact Situation, Including Prior History Issues.
[X] Don't try to gain Maghda's support against House Rutger, regardless, to try and preserve some notion of neutrality in the matter. She might well choose to act on her own, but don't push for it.(Chance of Success: 100%)

[X] Plan: Marienburg Mix Up
 
But none are so widely skirted as Evangeline Hertwig and her Owls, the Sword of Justice standing in full armor with her sword sheathed and arms crossed. You don't know quite when they arrived, but you do spy Evangeline's small personal retinue, the wizards, the sister Asrai, and the Norscan who you still struggle with despite his conversion to Verena. They said nothing to you, and you can't even tell if Evangeline is looking at your or not. The rest of the Owls seem to be keeping a careful eye on everyone else.
"you"

With such an eclectic retinue I couldn't help but think of the Inquisitors of 40k, as far as their eclectic retinues and authority. I'm well aware of the differences so no need for people to leap on pointing them out as they are wont to.
 
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Something to take into account is that in the Medieval Society the monsters that are an everyday reality on this setting does not exist IRL... And when a crazy motherfucker is capable of killing by himself several creatures capable of annihilating armies, you will need to take him seriously, no matter how humble he seems, because in this case is is impossible to mistake his humbleness for weakness...
Yes, but I'm more talking about non-direct confrontation. Yes I doubt many people would be interested in fighting him, but there's plenty of different people who might confont Ostland in a more indirect manner, relying on Fredreick's previously established humble and self-sacrificing nature to deflect and mitigate any negative outcomes.
 
I mean, it could inspire freddy to put the copper plating at the bottom of the shop hull to prevent more barnacle from growing as part of an drunken inspired upgrade tech.

But that'll depends on Torroar.
 
On a point regarding politics and something that came up recently, I'd like to see more consequences of Fredrick's lack of pride. The character has been effectively characterised as self-sacrificing, willing to go to unnecessary lengths to safeguard his people, that sort of thing. That's fine and is a joint result of his characterisation and of the general discussions in thread (apparently, I haven't been here reading for 6 years after all), however this humbleness would realistically result in people not taking him seriously.
Something to take into account is that in the Medieval Society the monsters that are an everyday reality on this setting does not exist IRL... And when a crazy motherfucker is capable of killing by himself several creatures capable of annihilating armies, you will need to take him seriously, no matter how humble he seems, because in this case is is impossible to mistake his humbleness for weakness...
Yes, but I'm more talking about non-direct confrontation. Yes I doubt many people would be interested in fighting him, but there's plenty of different people who might confont Ostland in a more indirect manner, relying on Fredreick's previously established humble and self-sacrificing nature to deflect and mitigate any negative outcomes.
How exactly is this "humble" though? I mean, how/why is this humble, specifically?

What you described -- "The character has been effectively characterised as self-sacrificing, willing to go to unnecessary lengths to safeguard his people, that sort of thing." -- isn't necessarily humility. But rather physical courage and valor.

Freddy is willing to put his physical body in the way of threats to his people. To shed a lot of sweat and blood, in defense of his people. That's physical courage.

You're right that people would be meeting Freddy in underhanded challenges, but that's entirely because they would be seeing how good he is at head-on challenges and martial prowess and going "Nuts to that! Why would we want to face him in his area of strength? No, let's do something sneaky instead."

You're not describing a weakness of humility and people looking at humility and going 'Aha, we can afford to take him!' People would be looking at him and going 'He's the Steel Bull, as stubborn and valiant as any exemplar of a bull... but how is he at intrigue and subtlety? I bet we can beat him there!'

It won't be his demonstrated virtues that would lead people to decide to attack him though. It would be people's own motivations -- like, e.g., competing economically with Ostland -- and priorities that would lead them to want to clash with him. And then, people's assessment of Freddy's accomplishments and personality will lead to them preferring stealthier methods of messing with him.

If they want to mess with him.

And even then, some people -- like Gunthar -- would probably be still perfectly willing to face him head on, because of their own personality and character and strengths. Somebody like Gunthar would look at Freddy and go "Ehh... I think we're fairly well-matched in thews. I think I have a good shot in a duel."
 
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You're not describing a weakness of humility and people looking at humility
I'm not really describing the weaknesses of his personality, I'm saying they would result in people considering him to be excessively humble, and being willing to take him on or insult him/ostland in other ways. Magnus even points this out during one of the other elector meets. There are various parties from the halflings, marienburgers, witch hunters etc who are messing about in ostland and while I can't say whether or not this is intentional by the author, this might be prompted by freddy's unwillingness to stand up for himself and rather than he's generally willing to be self-sacrificing etc.
 
might be prompted by freddy's unwillingness to stand up for himself
...I am tempted to post the "Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder!"-Clip from Futurama.

Like, sorry, but that Idea is just LAUGHABLE. Two Elector's Meets back, Freddy punched Gunthar in front of the assembled Leadership of the Empire after he continously insulted Feddy, his Wife, his Family, Ostland in general, etc. and Freddy finally got sick of his crap...or just because he lost his temper, if that's how you wanna look at it.
But either way, that is NOT something you do if you're 'unwilling to stand up for yourself'.
 
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[X] Inform Maghda of Entire Tri-Claw Compact Situation, Including Prior History Issues.
[X] Don't try to gain Maghda's support against House Rutger, regardless, to try and preserve some notion of neutrality in the matter. She might well choose to act on her own, but don't push for it.(Chance of Success: 100%)
 
I'm not really describing the weaknesses of his personality, I'm saying they would result in people considering him to be excessively humble, and being willing to take him on or insult him/ostland in other ways. Magnus even points this out during one of the other elector meets. There are various parties from the halflings, marienburgers, witch hunters etc who are messing about in ostland and while I can't say whether or not this is intentional by the author, this might be prompted by freddy's unwillingness to stand up for himself and rather than he's generally willing to be self-sacrificing etc.
But are those people doing so because of perceived excessive humbleness, or for other reasons?

As I said, I don't think that's due to humbleness or them looking at his willingness to shed blood and sweat for Ostland. I think that's due to them looking at other things and coming to the conclusion of being willing to do this.

People are willing to mess with Ostland or Freddy for various reasons, but I don't agree with the reason you put for why they'd be doing so.

Though I guess it's possible that somebody will try to bait Freddy with a "Come do this dangerous and self-sacrificing thing!" while actually holding ill intent, but I think Freddy or his family or friends would probably catch on to that. Also, somebody like Rutger or Starbrook trying to get him to do this is a lot different than the likes of Maghda or Evangeline Hertwig or Magnus the Pious bringing up the idea, too.

Gunthar might have a better shot at this, perhaps. As he's also a very martial elector. But then, I'm not sure if Gunthar would be the type to deliberately and specifically try to get Frederick outright killed via a dangerous and risky trial. Gunthar doesn't like us one bit, but he is pro-Empire and I'm not sure he'd want to have to deal with "I got an Elector Count killed, especially one I was known to have issues with and went head to head with" as an issue, especially with the Northern Trident and being a thing and Magnus the Pious. Though, inadvertently or accidentally getting Freddy killed because they're at odds and both strong and stubborn and martial, that's probably more possible...
 
I could say that the very threat of her being in the city was the biggest thing that she could do, by virtue of the fact that being present and therefore anything even suspected of being untoward regarding the proceedings could be highly scrutinized was quite a bit. If anything should have gone wrong, or even suspected, it could be a very, very major issue, therefore enforcing obedience and caution by simple presence. This would be true. I could say that, 'biggest event in Marienburg' is not true, there are many big things happening in a city like this all the time, and Evangeline does have other responsibilities and goals. That some of her Owls were in the crowds in disguise while she was off doing something on her own with her own retinue.

But none of that would be as true as the fact that I just straight up forgot to put her there in the crowd, and have stupidly forgot to include her in the voting options of 'things to possibly do'.

So uh, gonna go back and fix that now. >.>
But I liked the idea that Evangeline was in the city, just not physically there to be present. Maybe dealing with a fight or a very important dispute under her jurisdiction.

QM, does this write-in take care of meeting Evangeline or would you prefer your option?
---[] Speak with Evangeline Hertwig, she's supposed to be in Marienburg at some point. Just check to see if she is here. Likely in the Verenan temple in the temple district.

This is part of the leading plans. Because many of us were aware of Evangeline who was supposed to be in Marienburg, but Freddy didn't see her.
 
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But are those people doing so because of perceived excessive humbleness, or for other reasons?
I have no influence on that, but these are the effects I would anticipate given the events previously.

But either way, that is NOT something you do if you're 'unwilling to stand up for yourself'.

So to use a real world example rather than arguing about the events of a 6 year quest with discussions I've not read in the 4k pages, I'll refer to russian poisonings.

One spy got poisoned in the UK, it was pretty obvious to everyone it was Russia who'd done it, there was a lot of talk about how this was unacceptable behaviour for a state etc, however nothing was actually done about it. For example, russian plutocrat money, houses, and various other issues of dubious legality were left untouched, the attack was ignored. Fast forward and another spy was poisoned, with collateral damage killing another person. It was widely speculated at the time that because of the feeble response to the first attack there was no deterrent to the second.
 
I have no influence on that, but these are the effects I would anticipate given the events previously.



So to use a real world example rather than arguing about the events of a 6 year quest with discussions I've not read in the 4k pages, I'll refer to russian poisonings.

One spy got poisoned in the UK, it was pretty obvious to everyone it was Russia who'd done it, there was a lot of talk about how this was unacceptable behaviour for a state etc, however nothing was actually done about it. For example, russian plutocrat money, houses, and various other issues of dubious legality were left untouched, the attack was ignored. Fast forward and another spy was poisoned, with collateral damage killing another person. It was widely speculated at the time that because of the feeble response to the first attack there was no deterrent to the second.
This isn't the real world, this is Mallus, and every time Frederick has gone through one of these things successfully it has only increased opinion of him.

Please do not try and equate RL politics and situations with the magical death world where religion is enormously impactful.
 
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