I've seen it mentioned in the thread about a dozen times in the last week.
People mention it yes, but it seems more like the rules of mao. torroar, would you be willing to thread mark some rules for voting

One of those three greatships is the newest one with the least prestige to it.

And the others are the oldest ships in our navy, including the one with Frederick's name on it. That's not nothing. Please don't mock it or call it half-assed.
 
Curious, is there a reason why lots of people are against plan with using Temple-Ship or is it mostly to not give up all Greatships at once? I think it was mentioned how doing the Temple-Ship option while most dangerous is still survivable and would likely get us in black with Cult of Manann since no one complain Freddy didn't willingly take toughest choice.
 
[X] Plan Not all the Great Ships

I'll be keeping an eye on the arguments of the various plans and their merits, but for now, voting for this.
 
Curious, is there a reason why lots of people are against plan with using Temple-Ship or is it mostly to not give up all Greatships at once? I think it was mentioned how doing the Temple-Ship option while most dangerous is still survivable and would likely get us in black with Cult of Manann since no one complain Freddy didn't willingly take toughest choice.
For not giving all the greatships, people are worried about it making it harder for us to defend our coasts. For the Temple-ship, people are worried about the risk of death.
What's Plan Not Quite ALL the Way? The specifics aren't showing up on the vote tally thing.
I believe its giving either 2 or 3 greatships and taking the middle of the road option for the keelhauling
 
Curious, is there a reason why lots of people are against plan with using Temple-Ship or is it mostly to not give up all Greatships at once? I think it was mentioned how doing the Temple-Ship option while most dangerous is still survivable and would likely get us in black with Cult of Manann since no one complain Freddy didn't willingly take toughest choice.
I'm against the Temple-Ship. I trust Maghda to not screw us.
 
When I wrote the plan, I was remembering how much it hurt Natasha for Frederick to throw himself 100% of the time into the greatest danger possible, the highest risk/reward option, in an attempt to procure the best results for his people.

That inclination is there, but I sorta tempered it with the thought that with her physically with him as he makes that decision, he'd be inclined to spare her the witness of absolute most dangerous option physically, despite safeguards, and with the greatships yeah I just think that three ships is a huge setback but it's not a hard reset on Ostlands greatest naval assets.
 
And the others are the oldest ships in our navy, including the one with Frederick's name on it. That's not nothing. Please don't mock it or call it half-assed.

Still, 3 out of five would be .6 effort, or about that.



But I'm not going to quibble over details. It's considerably less than full effort, and when it's about paying recompense and entrusting ships to the Cult we should be putting in every effort, instead of putting in only partial effort and keeping a reserve of greatships which implies we don't trust Maghda, and the Cult of Manann, to make sure Ostland's shores are defended.

In all the worrying about Ostland being left defenseless it's being forgotten that Maghda does not want Ostland to be defenseless. She will not have the greatships leave Ostland coasts undefended.

But it's not "doing all he can, for his people."

(Or 'all he reasonably can', I guess. As, as torroar said, Frederick won't slice his throat or empty his treasury; he's not stupid. So the disagreement comes down to 'What is reasonable?' And here we all are at an impasse, with very different perceptions on what 'reasonable' is. =/ Me, I think that all 5, or at minimum 3, ships will be dedicated solely to defending Ostland for the foreseeable future. At least until we can replace it. So to me, it's not something that reduces our people's safety and security -- heck, we outright get told how much Maghda doesn't want to screw our people and sailors over!)

I think the only category here with levels of risk in here is the one with keelhauling since it outright says that in its write up, talking about which are most dangerous and which not. And the risk I feel is acceptable: in fact, we actually have amazing levels of mitigation for this! (We have a major artifact in the form of the Light of Summer, and we even have a Jade Wizard on retainer.)

I feel most strongly about handing over all the ships; I think that that category of actions, about the ships, is the one that has the most impact on Ostland's defenses.

But, I view it as the one that most improves Ostland's defenses. Because those ships will still be sailing with us. Just now with a crack crew.

And, just as important and effective, it means that all the people of Ostland will literally be sailing alongside most-dedicated-to-Manann ships!

The sheer relief and certainty that will offer to the sailors and dockworkers of Ostland will be immense.

Nothing says a huge sign of Manann's forgiveness or acceptance, than having literally all your flagships be decorated and dedicated to Manann.

Quite the opposite, in fact as Garlak makes a great argument for. Entrust the current greatships to the cult of Manann and they will put them to good use for Ostland and the Empire. That's a benefit that will continue even after we've built more greatships of our own (though those will be under our direct control) because we'll still have those greatships with the Cult to work with.

It being the greatest show of reconciliation with the Cult, the greatest show of trust in the Cult, and giving the most credit and influence to Maghda are all additional benefits.


The keelhauling will do the most to silence the zealots and most bloodthirsty critics. It can't be stressed enough how important that is in making sure all of this is truly settled going forward.

I know people are wary of leaving Ostland defenseless or Frederick getting hurt. But I'm not voting for going All In for the sake of looking tough or something like that.

It's about making damn sure this is settled as thoroughly as possible, and building good relations with the Cult of Manann as much as possible. All for the benefit of Ostland, which is what Frederick is after.

We've had Frederick willing to go all the way to ensure Ostland is better off than it was before. Let's continue that.

And while the most severe keelhauling is the most dangerous, don't forget we have all those advantages going for us. The Light of Summer, the Jade Wizard, the fortune point, the fate point.

Maghda is aware of only the first two and wouldn't have recommended the Triton's Fury as an option if she thought it was a death sentence.
 
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Guys, seriously, can we just ONCE not go the Extremist-Route? Especially since this time, it feels so wholly unnecessary to go the extra Mile. Three out of five Greatships, burning the Ravenships and doing the Level 4 Keelhauling should be more then enough to satisfy everyone involved. Do we really need to potentially cripple ourselves again, both Militarily and Physically?
 
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For not giving all the greatships, people are worried about it making it harder for us to defend our coasts. For the Temple-ship, people are worried about the risk of death.

I believe its giving either 2 or 3 greatships and taking the middle of the road option for the keelhauling
I know this intellectually (and it was something I thought about at first when first reading the update, before coming to a different realization/decision on it) and realize that people think that and that it makes some sense to think that, but... as somebody who went "Wait. Shit. This is the opposite of 'risking our coast's security!' We need to pick this -- this option does not deprive us of our coastal defenses, it instead dedicates them to Manann!" it is making me wince and groan to see used in the debates anyway, because I hold the exact opposite views on what it does and am totally convinced on that and aaaahhh... ><

It's frustrating, because on the one hand I see what people say and I realize that internally it makes sense as a position to hold, but yet I feel like I've had a realization of "Wait... wait, this doesn't make us less secure at all!" and so those people are mistaken about what it means, but they're reasonably mistaken but yet they're not reasonably mistaken because... Argh. >< What do you call it when you think a mistake is both reasonable and totally not reasonable at all to make? =/

Argh. I know that I repeat my arguments a lot, but -- dangit, I am damn sure that... from the very idea-conception and meaning of the vote, what that category is, is not about sacrificing our defenses or doing things which increase risk to our people...

... Like. The only way it could possibly backfire on our coastal defenses, is if Maghda dies and Rutger takes over instead, and goes "Mwahahaha, suck it Ostland!" I don't think that's likely to happen, and I'm not going to be concerned about that suddenly happening, so.
 
Guys, seriously, can we just ONCE not go the Extremist-Route? Especially since this time, it feels so wholly unnecessary to go the extra Mile. Three out of five Greatships, burning the Ravenships and doing the Level 4 Keelhauling should be more then enough to satisfy everyone involved! Do we really need to potentially cripple ourselves again, both Militarily and Physically?

What is necessary?

Can we agree that enough appeasement/approval so that Ostland's trade doesn't collapse is the bare minimum of what's necessary?

If so, how much appeasement/approval is that? We don't know for sure. We can't, and that's the catch.

To be sure we get enough appeasement/approval to save Ostland's economy and long term well being we need to do everything we can to get as much appeasement/approval as possible.

I don't see it as Extremist. We're being given an opportunity to fix things with the Cult and guarantee it won't be a problem for Ostland's future. We should not squander that opportunity.
 
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