I mean to be clear, nobody asked Admiral Sousa's opinion about this and no one is likely to ask Admiral Sousa's opinion about it. It's an interesting debate to be having in the thread, but it's not really going to be up to the Admiral of Starfleet to negotiate the proper disposition of these prisoners. It doesn't even seem like the sort of issue where anyone is going to ask our opinion.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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I mean to be clear, nobody asked Admiral Sousa's opinion about this and no one is likely to ask Admiral Sousa's opinion about it. It's an interesting debate to be having in the thread, but it's not really going to be up to the Admiral of Starfleet to negotiate the proper disposition of these prisoners. It doesn't even seem like the sort of issue where anyone is going to ask our opinion.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
If the Orion Union is proposing to try the prisoners for the crime of enslaving others...
Then our commitment to the abolition of Orion slavery hardly justifies us, if we're telling the Union that they cannot carry out the trials.
On the other hand, every time we try a new group of high-ranking Orion criminals without the participation of the Union government, it undermines the Union government's claim to be anything other than a Federation puppet.
In which case we need to be very careful to make sure the Union government isn't overthrown by nationalists. The nationalists might hate the Syndicate as much as we do, but it wouldn't matter if they're not willing to work with us. Or, realistically, they might decide that tolerating the Syndicate* is less bad than tolerating the Federation's total domination over Orion space.
In which case the nationalists could simply tell the Syndicate "lay low, we'll cover for you but LAY THE HELL LOW," expel us, and we would not be in a good diplomatic position to do anything about it.
_____________________
*(Remember, the Syndicate is something of an institution in Orion society, even if it's a sinister one. There aren't a lot of Orions who like it, but it's the devil they know, and it played an actual role upholding the interests of low-status Orions in Orion society, prior to the recent revolution that led to the creation of the new Union government).
I have been trying, and failing, to find the intelligence report that gave us the Cardassian fleet numbers as of the time we got those defectors.
Does any one know where to find those numbers? I know they are out of date, but to the best of my recollection, they are the most recent we have.
I'm just trying to get a handle on what kind of forces the Caradassins could move in to dispute our fleet movements.
Does any one know where to find those numbers? I know they are out of date, but to the best of my recollection, they are the most recent we have.
I'm just trying to get a handle on what kind of forces the Caradassins could move in to dispute our fleet movements.
On the contrary, if these citizens of the Union carried out crimes in Amarki territory, then the Union should allow them to be tried in Amarki courts, and in fact should extradite any additional accused* to be tried, as they are party to such treaties as a legitimate government. On the other hand if the Union or the Amarki has evidence these individual committed crimes in Union space, then it should work the other way. Both directions are necessary to the proper and legitimate functioning of the government. You cannot argue on principle, unless that principle is the letter of the law and no more or less.
*On sufficient evidence, of course.
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This post is the one you want.
It's from about 2 years ago, and we know the Cardassians are pretty reliably building 2 Jaldun cruisers a year plus 2-3 escorts. They might have around 23 cruisers by now, and maybe 25 escorts.
- Location
- Australia
As an aside, the Amarki post has been fleshed out further.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The underlined passage is key. I believe I have already said, repeatedly, that Orions who have personally committed crimes in Amarki territory should be considered subject to Amarki jurisdiction.
Therefore, I do not consider the quoted portion of your position to be "contrary" to my own. I'm not sure why you do.
The underlined passage is, again, key.
As best as I can determine, the slave raid was in Amarki space, but the slave auction was in Orion space.
We are currently discussing the prisoners captured by the Amarki navy when they attacked the slave auction.
It is my understanding that the Union government considers slavery to be a punishable crime. If so, participating in a slave auction would itself be a crime, under Orion law, in Orion space, and therefore subject to Orion jurisdiction. It is also possible, though far from certain, that for Orion citizens, participating in the slave trade outside Orion space is also a crime under Orion law, which would theoretically punishable in Orion space even if it were not punished elsewhere.
Now, it may also be that some (or maybe even none) of the prisoners personally participated in the slave raid against the Amarki. The people who personally participated in the raid will henceforth be referred to as "the raiders." The raiders represent a distinct group.
Conversely, there are certainly prisoners captured by the Amarki, who participated in the auction, but who were not personally involved in the raid. This group will henceforth be referred to as "the slave-traders."
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Everyone captured in the auction is suspected of being one of "the slave-traders." The slave-traders are not the raiders; they committed no crime in Amarki space. Presumably they committed no crime in any space claimed by the Federation. They would stand accused of crimes against Amarki citizens, but not of crimes in Amarki space. Therefore, as both of us appear to believe, the slave-traders are subject to Orion jurisdiction, not Amarki jurisdiction. Simple, at least according to international law as we know it.
[Obviously, if the auction was held in Federation space, the above paragraph is simply incorrect as a matter of fact, and should be ignored.]
The raiders themselves present a trickier issue. They are all accused of crimes committed under Amarki jurisdiction. They may be accused of crimes under Orion jurisdiction- either because of the Orions having a ban on raiding other people for slaves, or because of being involved in the slave auction.
This is a fairly common type of jurisdictional dispute. The raiders committed their first crime in Amarki space, and were captured by Amarki forces pursuing the criminals' trail. On the other hand, they committed their last crime in Orion territory, and are Orion nationals. This complicates the picture somewhat. Should they be tried by one nation, or both? In which order? What if one court sentences them to death, and the other to imprisonment? And so on. These are the questions under debate.
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Now, do you disagree with any part of the above? Just to be clear, I'd like to make sure we agree on the facts.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
It occurs to me that the Amarki system may make it difficult to cross specializations or to rise to high rank through divisions other than tactical and/or command.
A refit already, eh? These are pretty decent cruisers already. No a match for Connie-B, much less a Renaissance, but relatively crew light. They certainly make the Constellation look like garbage (but then, what doesn't?). Still, at only 4 of them it doesn't seem like enough have been built to really get value out of the design.
I believe we got them to delay the new escort project by encouraging them to focus more on cargo shipping first, right? Doesn't the Amarkian navy also have a couple of Centaur-As in service?
I wonder how the Confederacy of Amarki Navy feels about Starfleet. On the one hand it's undeniable that we take up a lot of resources and crew that might otherwise have gone to them. On the other hand, Starfleet does a lot of things that potentially free them to act more purely as a sword and shield.
We have zero facts about what jurisdiction each known crime was committed in except the slave raid itself. It's known that there are Union colonies in no less than three United Federation of Planets sectors, for example, and as the auction took place in space, that means it could well have happened anywhere (I'm certain next MOO update we'll be told where and the legalities of jurisdiction explained to us). It's incumbent on the Union to produce hard evidence of crimes by the arrested individuals that took place in Union jurisdiction, and likewise on the Amarki for Amarki jurisdiction, but they at least have the Slave Raid itself. Note that the Master of Orion update said that the Union was using citizenship as their argument, which is unfortunately not one of the criteria that ought to be used.
- Location
- USA
Some events can only have one ship respond to them, some can have two, others can have one ship respond but another aid the first ship if it fails. What we have been told is only Explorer class can respond to an event. However a Centaur-A gets a +3 on the 2d6 roll when testing on events, and it is also possible for a science event to have an oberth and centaur-a respond, at which point they would have a combined +8 to the 2d6 roll. Now that is not the case with all events, as some only allow one to respond.
There is benefits to escorts though, for one thing they build faster and for less crew, they also let us round out defense requirements and provide a second ship that can respond to some events. Without building escorts we would have a much smaller fleet. In addition for most events a Centaur-A matches a Connie-B on the actual event (Connie-B beats it on the response roll though).
2312.Q2.M3 - Sydraxian Session
- Location
- Australia
From: Office of the President of the United Federation of Planets
To: Admiral Valentina Sousa, Commander, Starfleet
Subject: Confidential Statement of the Extraordinary Session of Council Regarding Sydraxian Aggression
Body Text of the Statement:
Commentary & Supplementary:
The Federation Council is charging the Diplomatic Service with renewing the push to force an opening of dialogue. Starfleet is advised that the likelihood is high that explorer-grade support will be requested by the Diplomatic Service to provide survivability and sufficient diplomatic facilities to conduct this operation. This will be given six months to attempt, during which time the following amendments to standard RoE is in place:
If in the space of six months time the Diplomatic Service has continued to produce no significant progress to attaining a cessation in hostilities, then Starfleet will be required by the Council to present plans for utilising of its resources to neutralise the clear and present danger to the safety of Federation Citizens in all coreward territories using force.
Private Addendum:
Basically we're fed up with the Sydraxians. We're giving the DS a kick up the backside to make a last attempt. They have a six month period to get through to the Sydraxians, ideally with the help of the ECorps. However, if they can't get through to the Sydraxians, then it's over to you guys. If we can't lure them to the negotiating table then you'll have to kick their teeth in and drag them there.
Of course, Human history in particular is replete with the dangerous examples of "they only understand force". But at some stage we do have to be realistic. If someone simply doesn't want to talk, but does want to fight, sometimes you just have to put the dukes up.
-Councillor Hayley Singh, X-Alpha Centauri
To: Admiral Valentina Sousa, Commander, Starfleet
Subject: Confidential Statement of the Extraordinary Session of Council Regarding Sydraxian Aggression
Body Text of the Statement:
HAVING CONSIDERED recent aggressions against Federation space by starfaring vessels of the Sydraxian Hierarchy, and
DEEPLY CONCERNED by the continuing refusal to reopen bilateral discussions, and
DESIRING peace on the coreward border of the Federation, the Federation, and
RECOGNISING that the current state of affairs cannot continue, the Federation
AFFIRMS the need to protect the citizens and shipping of the Federation,
RESOLVES to establish via Gretarian or Yrillian agencies renewed contact,
ENCOURAGES Sydraxian returns to peaceful and frank discussion, but
REGRETS that if this is not forthcoming, steps must be taken to confront this threat head on.
DEEPLY CONCERNED by the continuing refusal to reopen bilateral discussions, and
DESIRING peace on the coreward border of the Federation, the Federation, and
RECOGNISING that the current state of affairs cannot continue, the Federation
AFFIRMS the need to protect the citizens and shipping of the Federation,
RESOLVES to establish via Gretarian or Yrillian agencies renewed contact,
ENCOURAGES Sydraxian returns to peaceful and frank discussion, but
REGRETS that if this is not forthcoming, steps must be taken to confront this threat head on.
Commentary & Supplementary:
The Federation Council is charging the Diplomatic Service with renewing the push to force an opening of dialogue. Starfleet is advised that the likelihood is high that explorer-grade support will be requested by the Diplomatic Service to provide survivability and sufficient diplomatic facilities to conduct this operation. This will be given six months to attempt, during which time the following amendments to standard RoE is in place:
Sydraxian ships that are in Federation space are to be warned to leave.
However, if hails are not acknowledged, ships in violation may be engaged and destroyed.
Ships in neutral space are still NOT to be engaged unless in defence of self or other Federation assets.
Postings in the Sydraxian Border Zone are recognised as being combat-like deployments.
However, if hails are not acknowledged, ships in violation may be engaged and destroyed.
Ships in neutral space are still NOT to be engaged unless in defence of self or other Federation assets.
Postings in the Sydraxian Border Zone are recognised as being combat-like deployments.
If in the space of six months time the Diplomatic Service has continued to produce no significant progress to attaining a cessation in hostilities, then Starfleet will be required by the Council to present plans for utilising of its resources to neutralise the clear and present danger to the safety of Federation Citizens in all coreward territories using force.
Private Addendum:
Basically we're fed up with the Sydraxians. We're giving the DS a kick up the backside to make a last attempt. They have a six month period to get through to the Sydraxians, ideally with the help of the ECorps. However, if they can't get through to the Sydraxians, then it's over to you guys. If we can't lure them to the negotiating table then you'll have to kick their teeth in and drag them there.
Of course, Human history in particular is replete with the dangerous examples of "they only understand force". But at some stage we do have to be realistic. If someone simply doesn't want to talk, but does want to fight, sometimes you just have to put the dukes up.
-Councillor Hayley Singh, X-Alpha Centauri
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I know that some of you have already done all this kind of analysis, but it helps me keep track.
Assuming that Cardie building patterns have not changed, and no new designs:
Lorgot Battlecruiser (1 only)
C7 S3 H3 L5 P? D5
Excelsior (11? Not sure if front page up to date. With at least 4 more building)
C6 S5 H4 L5 P5 D6
A fairly even fight, it would come down to luck as whether their extra C would negate our extra H first or not. Of course, there is only one of theirs ...
---
Jaldun (13 + at least 2/year since 2010 - call it 20 of these in case of estimates being out)
C4 S3 H4 L4 P3 D4
Heavy Cruiser - I'm sure the estimated stats are floating around somewhere, have not found at time of writing, but C5 - at least 6 of these.
Constitution-B (3? + a bunch more building)
C5 S3 H3 L4 P3 D5
Constellation (7)
C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D3
Our Consties should be kept away this - while victory is possible, it looks too unlikely. Jaldun vs Connie-B is a close fight, could go either way. Their heavy cruisers are more of a concern. And they certainly have numbers at this hull sizing on us. Which is why we would want our Excelsiors taking them on when ever we can.
---
Escorts - estimated 25, but no idea which versions they are building more of.
Their combat heavy escorts are likely to beat our Miranda-A and Centaur-A designs though.
---
Now they have at least three internal Sectors, and I assume, like us, a minimum force that must be kept at home baring emergencies. We lack any knowledge of what is on their other sides, how many border Sectors they have that we are not going to facing, or what kind of threats they believe they have on those borders.
Until we have evidence otherwise, I am going to assume that they can vector half their fleet to dispute our territory claims. So ~13 cruisers and ~14 Escorts - mostly the combat focused designs. They can get local superiority by concentrating this, but we will have Amarkian and Apitian forces in the play area as well - decent cruisers and the deadliest escorts in known space.
If this comes to sustained fighting, we are going to take losses, but as things appear to stand, we should give a better accounting then we receive.
Assuming that Cardie building patterns have not changed, and no new designs:
Lorgot Battlecruiser (1 only)
C7 S3 H3 L5 P? D5
Excelsior (11? Not sure if front page up to date. With at least 4 more building)
C6 S5 H4 L5 P5 D6
A fairly even fight, it would come down to luck as whether their extra C would negate our extra H first or not. Of course, there is only one of theirs ...
---
Jaldun (13 + at least 2/year since 2010 - call it 20 of these in case of estimates being out)
C4 S3 H4 L4 P3 D4
Heavy Cruiser - I'm sure the estimated stats are floating around somewhere, have not found at time of writing, but C5 - at least 6 of these.
Constitution-B (3? + a bunch more building)
C5 S3 H3 L4 P3 D5
Constellation (7)
C3 S2 H2 L2 P2 D3
Our Consties should be kept away this - while victory is possible, it looks too unlikely. Jaldun vs Connie-B is a close fight, could go either way. Their heavy cruisers are more of a concern. And they certainly have numbers at this hull sizing on us. Which is why we would want our Excelsiors taking them on when ever we can.
---
Escorts - estimated 25, but no idea which versions they are building more of.
Their combat heavy escorts are likely to beat our Miranda-A and Centaur-A designs though.
---
Now they have at least three internal Sectors, and I assume, like us, a minimum force that must be kept at home baring emergencies. We lack any knowledge of what is on their other sides, how many border Sectors they have that we are not going to facing, or what kind of threats they believe they have on those borders.
Until we have evidence otherwise, I am going to assume that they can vector half their fleet to dispute our territory claims. So ~13 cruisers and ~14 Escorts - mostly the combat focused designs. They can get local superiority by concentrating this, but we will have Amarkian and Apitian forces in the play area as well - decent cruisers and the deadliest escorts in known space.
If this comes to sustained fighting, we are going to take losses, but as things appear to stand, we should give a better accounting then we receive.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Whut?
Did someone get a demotion while we weren't looking?
My only concern is the deadline, but that's about what we needed.
- Location
- Australia
Oops, force of habit!
To expand on the issue with the deadline, establishing dialogue with the Dawiar took a full year, and they were inclined to talk. Six months is almost certainly going to expire unless the FDS work a bunch of miracles.
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I note the councilmember designation for Singh. X-Alpha Centauri probably means Expansionist party, Council seat of Alpha Centauri, similar to American Congress designations, with the other prefixes being P, H, D, and M.
The delay is presumably due to difficulties in the warp slingshot calculations for the Amarki shipyard complex as a whole?
The delay is presumably due to difficulties in the warp slingshot calculations for the Amarki shipyard complex as a whole?
- Location
- USA
11 Excelsiors is up to date, though one will be on detached assignment with the Kadeshi and not available. Below is a link to show what Starfleet has and what our members have along with what is under construction.
To Bodly Go-Member and Affiliate Fleets
2312.Q2 - Steering Committee
- Location
- Australia
[ ][QPQ] Package 1
-New Hospital Ship research project added
-Transfer 100br/60sr to Starfleet Medical budget to allow for an extra Hospital Ship to be built from Auxiliary yard
-Pacifists get to earmark 15pp for next Snakepit
-New Hospital Ship research project added
-Transfer 100br/60sr to Starfleet Medical budget to allow for an extra Hospital Ship to be built from Auxiliary yard
-Pacifists get to earmark 15pp for next Snakepit
2312Q2
Starfleet Intelligence Command - Steering Committee
Admiral,
Congratulations on your appointment. I look forward to serving you as dutifully as I did Admiral Kahurangi.
With the word coming in that we will be ratifying Apinae and Indoria, much of my focus will be on securing those events. Because they both have considerable exposure to both Syndicate and Cardassian operations, the likelihood of an at least token efforts to disrupt the ratification is extremely high.
Dutifully,
Rear Admiral Scott Linderley, Director
==========================
(Pick One Cardassian Tactical Report)
[ ][CARD] Cardassian Ship Analysis Report - Write in class
[ ][CARD] Cardassian Shipbuilding Report
[ ][CARD] Cardassian Tactics Report (Gain +5% combat vs Cardassian fleets for the next 12 months)
(Pick One Romlan Tactical Report)
[ ][ROM] Romulan Daljerra Cruiser Report
[ ][ROM] Romulan Ship Analysis Report - Write in
[ ][ROM] Romulan Shipbuilding Report
[ ][ROM] Romulan Shipyard Report
[ ][ROM] Romulan Fleet Strength Report
(PIck up to three General Intel Reports)
[ ][REPORT] What would you like to see reported on?
[ ][REPORT] Romulan Diplomatic Posture Report
[ ][REPORT] Klingon Diplomatic Posture Report
[ ][REPORT] Cardassian Diplomatic Posture Report
[ ][REPORT] <Any> Diplomatic Posture Report
[ ][REPORT] Klingon Fleet Strength Report
[ ][REPORT] <Any> Fleet Strength Report
[ ][REPORT] Ship Analysis Report: <Write in Ship to try to get profile>
[ ][REPORT] Shipyard Activity Report for: <Write in Power to get current build details and possibly resource levels>
NB: Not currently available for Klingons
[ ][REPORT] Write in other Question
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Though they are bringing in the Explorer Corps, who have a way of producing miracles.
Romulan Fleet Strength this time. We apparently can't ask for Klingon Shipyard Report, or we would.
@OneirosTheWriter we're supposed to have a free Syndicate report.