Which is probably the great majority of everyone they captured. That's the entire point of having tried to hit the slave auction at which the (frozen Amarki-sicle) slaves were being sold.

No, there really, really is a sovereignty issue, assuming the auction was being held in Orion space and that most of the people captured were not personally involved in the original slave raid. And those assumptions are at least strongly supported by the text.
I was talking SPECIFICALLY about the people who gave the orders, and who actually did it.

Yeah, there's one with the buyers, and other people there. With the people who did the actual raid? Nope, I'll go so far as to say we should investigate anyone who seriously tries to argue there's a legal problem with Amarki having jurisdiction over crimes physically committed on their planet against their people as a possible Syndicate agent. With the people who ordered it? Still no issue, but it's not the level where the most plausible explanation for in-universe claims of an issue is enemy action, because jurisdiction gets a tad more complicated and less obvious when the crime is giving an order carried out in a different jurisdiction.
 
The Federation actually has working, as in real scientificly working, lie detector technology based on TOS.
 
The chief of staff of the current Orion Union head of state is a woman who, well...So yes, I think they did something about their slaver problem before. If you think it's bad now, you should see what it looked like a couple of generations ago.

Kind of makes you question the idea that the accused will get off lighter under Orion justice. Sure there's Syndicate corruption, but there's also an awful lot of Orions who think that 'death to all slavers' is a great battlecry.
 
Ten/ fifteen years, depending on if we get a Kirk or Ka'Sharren

There were a few people that cross-commissioned from the Amarkian Navy into Starfleet. We might see a former knight who transferred to Starfleet six years ago get a Captain's billet especially if Starfleet's hard up for command grade officers.
 
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Kind of makes you question the idea that the accused will get off lighter under Orion justice. Sure there's Syndicate corruption, but there's also an awful lot of Orions who think that 'death to all slavers' is a great battlecry.

I think the worry is that they accused might be rescued or escape from Orion custody, or be judged innocent by Syndicate owned judges
 
There were a few people that cross-commissioned from the Amarkian Navy into Starfleet. We might see a former knight who transferred to Starfleet six years ago get a Captain's billet especially if Starfleet's hard up for command grade officers.

Most of those went towards running the Amarkian Starbase, though you are right that by now some of them may have transferred around and be up for billets.
 
I think the worry is that they accused might be rescued or escape from Orion custody, or be judged innocent by Syndicate owned judges

That'd not actually be a huge problem as it'd give us the chance to use them in sting operations. Well not if they get jail broken obviously but if they're judged 'innocent' it'd cast suspicion on the Judge and likely show cases other areas where the Syndicate has infiltrated.

Such a scenario would give the task force more leads to follow.
 
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The catch is that in the process of finding out who actually committed each crime, you are taking every person accused and deeply, intrusively reading their every thought and learning their every secret.

If the idea of someone doing that to you doesn't bother you, then I'm jealous of you on some level, because you would have to have led a life that is both quite dull and very happy to be fully comfortable letting an unknown stranger riffle through your thoughts.

No more than it bothers me that the courts can order the same done to my smartphone, computers and email. This should not be done lightly, but I can accept that if I get caught red-handed doing something like corruption, terrorism or pedophilia (or slavery!). If the suspect is cleared of charges, the results of the brain scan won't be considered further, much like if you had talked to a priest, psychologist or similar.

Also, while I don't think my life is boring, I don't have any secrets that would be more than embarrassing. Certainly nothing that would get me prison time.

For one, there are very serious concerns about the honesty of the telepaths. There's a good reason hearsay evidence is normally prohibited, because under extreme circumstances, the temptation on the part of a witness to lie about what they learned from another person, or at least to shade the truth, is overwhelming.

Obviously, the courts wouldn't invite the first Betazed to walk by the courthouse. Telepaths working for the judiciary would be professionals, like the Rixx Scrutineers. The same telepath or group of telepaths would examine the minds of all involved and testify on what they discovered.
 
Obviously, the courts wouldn't invite the first Betazed to walk by the courthouse. Telepaths working for the judiciary would be professionals, like the Rixx Scrutineers. The same telepath or group of telepaths would examine the minds of all involved and testify on what they discovered.

There would have to be some really intense mechanisms in place to watch the watchers though. Opportunities for corruption within an organization like the scrutineers seem, well...
 
There would have to be some really intense mechanisms in place to watch the watchers though. Opportunities for corruption within an organization like the scrutineers seem, well...

Yeah, if only there was someone who could read minds to see if people were corrupt. Oh wait.

Honestly, Betazed is probably the least corrupt and conspiracy laden part of the galaxy, because it's so hard to keep anything a secret. Which leads to their odd views on privacy as well.

The one way I can see a Betazoid abusing their powers is a Betazoid who spends all of their time around non-telepaths. So probably not much of an issue.
 
Yeah, if only there was someone who could read minds to see if people were corrupt. Oh wait.

Honestly, Betazed is probably the least corrupt and conspiracy laden part of the galaxy, because it's so hard to keep anything a secret. Which leads to their odd views on privacy as well.

The one way I can see a Betazoid abusing their powers is a Betazoid who spends all of their time around non-telepaths. So probably not much of an issue.

That's exactly the issue. We're not on Betazed.
 
I'm a little worried about taking the Orion side too firmly in the extradition issue.

First and foremost we need to remember that the Amarkians are our members while the Orions are not. This sounds like a callous reasoning, but remember, we are only involved with the Orions to this degree due to the actions of the Stndicate. To that end, we should be careful who and what we are extraditing, especially because of the rampant corruption present in the Amarki courts and Alukk.

IMO we should extradite a majority of the the prisoners. We should, however, not release the high profile shodars. This satisfies both political issues here. The Union can be seen to be addressing the issues concerning protection of its own citizenry while the Amarki are able to exact justice from the individuals who by all accounts ordered and oversaw the abductions of their people.
 
Or we can turn them over to the Catian Frontier Justices.
They are totally uninvolved in the case. They might make a good candidate for who holds the suspects in custody if we need a neutral party to do that, but they're not a viable candidate for trying the case.

I'm a little worried about taking the Orion side too firmly in the extradition issue.

First and foremost we need to remember that the Amarkians are our members while the Orions are not. This sounds like a callous reasoning, but remember, we are only involved with the Orions to this degree due to the actions of the Stndicate. To that end, we should be careful who and what we are extraditing, especially because of the rampant corruption present in the Amarki courts and Alukk.
I assume you mean the underlined word to be "Orion?"

Anyway, the problem is that we're involved with the Orion Union not just because of the Syndicate, but because they are our affiliates. They're our allies too. Saying "we will always side with one of our members over one of our affiliates in a dispute, because they're our members" is not a message we want to send. The message we want to send is "we will side with whichever side has the legal right in a given dispute."

Suppose at some future time the Dawiar become a Federation affiliate. They'll probably still have territorial disputes with the Caitians. If they come to us for arbitration, can they count on a fair hearing? Or will we automatically feel obliged to give the Caitians more than their fair share because "the Caitians are our members while the Dawiar are not?" In the latter case, bearing in mind that the Federation is the sum total of its member species, that basically amounts to us saying "The Federation gets the best of everything, the affiliates get the leftovers."

That is not a message compatible with our long term goals. Or with the long good of the Federation as a stable political entity.

IMO we should extradite a majority of the the prisoners. We should, however, not release the high profile shodars. This satisfies both political issues here. The Union can be seen to be addressing the issues concerning protection of its own citizenry while the Amarki are able to exact justice from the individuals who by all accounts ordered and oversaw the abductions of their people.
I think we should have a serious discussion with the Orion and Amarki governments about this and mediate some kind of an arrangement. It might be best to compromise along the lines you propose, but what I would suggest is:

1) Turn the highest-level prisoners over to the Anti-Syndicate Task Force for questioning, then over to the Amarki or the Orions depending on whether statement (2) applies to them.
2) Turn the slavers who personally participated in the raid, and if applicable the specific leader who ordered the raid but did not personally participate, over to the Amarki.
3) Turn everyone else over to the tender mercies of Madame Sierre on Broken Chains. :D
 
That's exactly the issue. We're not on Betazed.

Well yes, but presumably these court telepaths spend a lot of time on Betazed and are around Betazoids often enough that it would be hard for them to keep their corruption secret.

In terms of government, all the important Betazoid have been a part of the Betazed government until just a few years ago, so the chance of corruption is low. It might be an issue in twenty years, when you have the lone Betazoid on a colony run for public office or something.
 
Try telling that to an Orion.

Honestly, Orion has a deep history and while it may be fragmentary, that doesn't mean they don't have collective cultural memory of the things they encountered during their time as a dominant empire. I doubt the Betazoids are the first or only telepaths to show up on Alukk.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the Orions also have experience with corrupt telepaths.
 
Are you aware of the crew problems we get from building all cruisers and explorers, to the exclusion of escorts? Do you believe that escorts are always the wrong thing to build, or only when we aren't specifically anticipating needing them in the near future?

I am. That said, there isn't much point to building a ship that is going to fail a lot of event rolls either, and it's even worse if we have to deploy them only in duos lest the opposition destroy them in singletons. This becomes truly untenable if it turns out we would need Swarm doctrine to deploy multiple escorts in tandem.

Building combat escorts sounds good on paper, but it's going to fail in practice if we have issues like this, and it will almost certainly be difficult with regards to the Council. Militarization is gonna spike, more's the pity.
 
I assume you mean the underlined word to be "Orion?"

Yeah. I was typing on my phone.

Anyway, the problem is that we're involved with the Orion Union not just because of the Syndicate, but because they are our affiliates. They're our allies too. Saying "we will always side with one of our members over one of our affiliates in a dispute, because they're our members" is not a message we want to send. The message we want to send is "we will side with whichever side has the legal right in a given dispute."

Suppose at some future time the Dawiar become a Federation affiliate. They'll probably still have territorial disputes with the Caitians. If they come to us for arbitration, can they count on a fair hearing? Or will we automatically feel obliged to give the Caitians more than their fair share because "the Caitians are our members while the Dawiar are not?" In the latter case, bearing in mind that the Federation is the sum total of its member species, that basically amounts to us saying "The Federation gets the best of everything, the affiliates get the leftovers."

That is not a message compatible with our long term goals. Or with the long good of the Federation as a stable political entity.

So, I suppose I didn't word my argument properly, nor did I flesh it out as I should have. When I raised the point of the existing Amarki membership, I was referring specifically to the race and people as Federation citizens. I fully understand the issues raised by favoring member states over affiliates. My point here is that I don't see the extradition issue as an Amarki v. Orion Union issue. I see it as a UFP v. Orion Union issue. I think the precedent here is set by our commitment to the abolishment of slavery.

What I was alluding(poorly) to was that I think Federation courts should arbitrate and preside over the trials of the higher level Syndicate members. We've tried and convicted enough of the Syndicate members arrested to date that the precedent is already set.

Frankly, I think the Amarki would be mollified by this sort of compromise. They made the choice to be a part of our federated union, and have so far abided by that choice in all aspects. They are a chivalric culture, and I see very little reason for them to find issue with this sort of option.

What we have to be careful of is continued destabilization of the Union government.

1) Turn the highest-level prisoners over to the Anti-Syndicate Task Force for questioning, then over to the Amarki or the Orions depending on whether statement (2) applies to them.
2) Turn the slavers who personally participated in the raid, and if applicable the specific leader who ordered the raid but did not personally participate, over to the Amarki.
3) Turn everyone else over to the tender mercies of Madame Sierre on Broken Chains. :D

This is something I can certainly live with if all parties agree.
 
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I am. That said, there isn't much point to building a ship that is going to fail a lot of event rolls either, and it's even worse if we have to deploy them only in duos lest the opposition destroy them in singletons. This becomes truly untenable if it turns out we would need Swarm doctrine to deploy multiple escorts in tandem.

Building combat escorts sounds good on paper, but it's going to fail in practice if we have issues like this, and it will almost certainly be difficult with regards to the Council. Militarization is gonna spike, more's the pity.

I think you're overstating how likely ships are to fail rolls. Remember, non-EC rolls have a lower DC, so even ships like Centaurs and Constellations have a decent chance of passing them.

We've only had a handful of failed Sector rolls over the course of the past decade, and most of those have been of the no result variety. And in combat, yes solo escorts are at a disadvantage but presumably we're going to group them up on the outbreak of hostilities, in which case the individual ship's stats are less important.
 
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