I think the combat engine already supports more than one damage at time, we just haven't hit the threshold for it come into effect (basing off the wording from when damage is inflicted).

Regarding Escorts, there seems to be a lot of arguments about their role, purpose, etc.

A superior generalist design is too expensive, and becomes just a small cruiser.
A pure combat design falls afoul of the Council, even though (or maybe, because) that is the role that our neighbours use Escorts for.
Specialist designs, outside of the specific case of the Science escort, are considered too handicapped if they get called in on anything outside of their speciality.

Are there likely to be any tech/doctrine advances that would let us for fleets/specify that ships of type X will be partnered up with a ship of type Y, if one is available? Because if so, then we could have little fleets of specialised Escorts, for example a Presence Escort paired with a Science Escort, for medical/diplomacy missions.
 
Combat mechanics might weigh ship with more combat higher.

For all we know, a ship with 4 Combat outshoots 2 ships with 2 combat each. (Say, if it's Combat^1.5 or something.)
 
Combat mechanics might weigh ship with more combat higher.

For all we know, a ship with 4 Combat outshoots 2 ships with 2 combat each. (Say, if it's Combat^1.5 or something.)
It does that on the fleet level. Still, that's not a bad idea.

ships of type X will be partnered up with a ship of type Y
This is a bad idea. It effectively cuts the number of ships we have in half. Someone a few pages back made a better argument that convinced me.
 
I think the combat engine already supports more than one damage at time, we just haven't hit the threshold for it come into effect (basing off the wording from when damage is inflicted).

Regarding Escorts, there seems to be a lot of arguments about their role, purpose, etc.

A superior generalist design is too expensive, and becomes just a small cruiser.
A pure combat design falls afoul of the Council, even though (or maybe, because) that is the role that our neighbours use Escorts for.
Specialist designs, outside of the specific case of the Science escort, are considered too handicapped if they get called in on anything outside of their speciality.

Are there likely to be any tech/doctrine advances that would let us for fleets/specify that ships of type X will be partnered up with a ship of type Y, if one is available? Because if so, then we could have little fleets of specialised Escorts, for example a Presence Escort paired with a Science Escort, for medical/diplomacy missions.
No, though response rolls for events are defense plus appropriate stat vs the response DC so a science ship is more likely to respond to a science event thanks to the higher science score. As for escorts generalist is more in line with the federation it seems and due to the combat cap something we need to consider. Right now with our yards working full out we could likely have around 18 C a year maybe more, that is 9 years to the current combat cap (though doctrine research extends this) and as we get more colonies and improve crew supply that number of C per year is likely to increase, more so with refits to the excelsiors. Still until the design sheet gets firmed up it is hard to say, if we can get a Centaur-A with all stats but combat improved for the same cost(including crew).

I do like Combat 3 Escorts since deploying the in border zones they count as Combat 2 vs the cap but can be built tough and good event responders.

Also I do not like the idea of pocket explorers, but I prefer cruisers capped at 2mt to keep build time to 3 years. 1mt escorts for 2 years of build time, 2mt cruisers for 3 years of build time and 3mt explorers for 4 years of build time. Only way to go bigger is once we get the construction time reduction techs because waiting 5 years for an explorer makes it hard to respond to changes in situations.
 
A lot of the problems with escorts are solved by squadroning.

Which is not our doctrine.

Oops.
Flexible doctrine research?

/

While I suspect that Bajor may well have occured without our intervention, I believe the appropriate quote in regard to the situation is: 'Never interrupt your opponent when he/she is making a mistake.'
 
waiting 5 years for an explorer makes it hard to respond to changes in situations.
This is why I want to (slowly!) expand the number of large Explorer-rated slipways so that we can consistently lay down two per year. If we decide to only build one per year, we've already established that the Federation member world's are interested in commissioning new battlewagons, so there is still a use for extra slipways.

[Edit]
I should note that having several extra slipways for major repairs, refitting and prototyping work is also desirable.
[/Edit]
 
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This is why I want to (slowly!) expand the number of large Explorer-rated slipways so that we can consistently lay down two per year. If we decide to only build one per year, we've already established that the Federation member world's are interested in commissioning new battlewagons, so there is still a use for extra slipways.

[Edit]
I should note that having several extra slipways for major repairs, refitting and prototyping work is also desirable.
[/Edit]
That is only if we keep up constant use of those slips though, if we were using them to refit ships or build cruisers or escorts and then the situation changed where we needed more explorers soon it would be an extra year of wait. If we do have the spare PP I do not mind additional ship berths (either 3m or 2m for explorer and cruisers use, I think we have enough 1m for now, though more later may be needed). Still we will need to see the PP situation we are in plus what options are there. Academy expansions, diplo pushes, starbase in Betazed and Indoria (if they will join next year), shipyard expansions, retiring the last old guard, lots of spots to spend PP and thanks to cost our PP pool will be reduced somewhat.
 
Right now, I'm working on a basic combat engine using python.

In my combat engine, this is what happens:

Both sides start off with the same base hit chance, which I arbitrarily set to .75 as a constant. (RNG returns floats, since I'm lazy and this makes fractions convenient)

The side with the higher combat value (fleet combat value is computed as [(sum of ship combat values) * a fleet combat modifier that represents coordination, tactical analysis techs] ** 1.1. ) gets a proportional to hit bonus. Blue gets a similar bonus.

red_hit_chance += ((red['combat'] - blue['combat']) / red['combat'] * (1 - red_hit_chance))**1.1

Each ship gets to resolve their individual hit chance, including individual ships' to hit boni and rerolls.

result = math.floor(self.rng.random() - hit_chance - ship['hit_mod'])

Then, hits are assigned (not implemented, going with random for now), and each hit ship has an evade chance, which is resolved.

I still need to translate individual ships' combat and defense scores to individual to boni.

I also want to make ships roll against each other.

Hmm, while I appreciate the effort put into this, I'm uncertain this is the right approach.

it looks like this is based off the salvo combat model, where each turn, each all the ships in each fleet fires a salvo against the other fleet simultaneously. This works for naval missile/fighter battles. The problem is that Star Trek fleet battles probably don't look like such naval battles. It might make sense for torpedoes, but definitely not for phasers - and some torpedoes supposedly can fly FTL too and thus are practically like phasers in that sense. In other words, the damage is practically instantaneous.

The current combat engine is more of a Lanchester's law model, with more continuous damage between combatants. It's not an exact fit, because ships are discrete units that aren't as numerous as say infantry gun battles (which Lanchester designed the laws for) and each ship does have staying power before getting killed. However it works well enough, because the practically instantaneous damage of phasers (and maybe torpedoes) should kill ships without delay.

I think it's better to tweak the current engine model in some way. Perhaps change how fleet power is calculated. And/or have each ship's own stats matter for determining damage (like the >1 dmg per shot suggestion) and its probability of being selected.

AOE isn't really a thing in space, barring 100% organic solar flares.

Well it depends on the weapon and how far ships are from each other. There's that whole scene where the Enterprise-D covers for the Enterprise-C in that Yesterday's Enterprise episode, so screening for ships is apparently a thing, even if you'd think ship combat should occur at light second+ distances. Conventional Star Trek weaponry may not be AoE, but I can imagine some technobabble weapon that would do the trick. If STO is considered in any way canon, I've read they do have AoE weaponry there.
 
Unless you are constrained by having to fit the ships on the screen at the same time (like in a movie or TV show), in a realistic space battle no ship would be close enough to another for explosions to hit both. (Babylon 5 tried to show this in one episode - it doesn't make for good TV so it wasn't really repeated to the same degree. Though even there they had allied ships close, and it was the enemy that was always in a different screenshot


)

A quick google claims a range for phasers somewhere in the 300,000 km range, 2.5 million for torpedoes. Given those ranges, I'd expect ships to be at least 5,000 km from other friendlies to allow room for dodging.
 
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Well, I have considered developing somewhat from the shuttle attack sequence.

Multiply hull and shield by ten, and take from them a random integer between 1 and current combat of the firing ship.

Hmm, I like this general approach, where ships with higher combat actually do deal more damage. The actual hull/shields X10 just allows the granularity of combat-based damage. That gives larger ships with higher combat, or rather, anything with high combat a role besides bumping up hit %.

Numbers may need tweaking though, since I'm worried that combat would get bogged down - I think a prototypical battle between two escorts with C3 H2 L2 should still finish in about 6 turns. Or maybe turns don't matter much here, since combat is practically continuous? But still, anything that depends on turn count, like escape time, will have to be balanced against overall combat rate.

And larger damage relative to hull/shield serves as an indirect buff towards larger ships (explorers) over smaller ones (escorts), since the damage received distribution per ship than becomes wider, which increases the probability of less durable escorts randomly getting knocked out more quickly. (To elaborate, contrast with a scenario where let's suppose hull/shield had a X1000 factor. Then the relatively low combat damage would end up getting more evenly distributed, which although still disadvantageous for less durable ships, at least provides stronger guarantees on how long ships will last.)

Fleet hit % may also need to be tweaked to depend less on combat, since now combat is even more critical when it's already the most important stat in fleet battles. Perhaps have fleet hit % depend on both combat and defense, but still mostly the former?
 
...
While I suspect that Bajor may well have occured without our intervention, I believe the appropriate quote in regard to the situation is: 'Never interrupt your opponent when he/she is making a mistake.'
I am hundred percent sure I said that before the vote. Let me dig it up for you;
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Counsellors, Kadeshi and Computing

I feel like pushing for bajor is interrupting enemy while they are making a mistake. Lets not do it.
Uh... So I probably should say; I told you so.
 
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Keep in mind that Bajor is far from our borders and mostly surrounded by Cardassian and Cardassian-affiliate space. The Cardassians are simply not capable of doing something like this with the Dawiar (who are basically the exact opposite of Bajor; a distant Cardassian ally with mixed loyalties surrounded by Federation forces) or the Yrillians (who are militarily powerful in their own right as well as being much closer to our space than the cardies').

Now, as for Bajor. I say that as soon as the Cardassians start to go full occupation, we begin arming and funding the fuck out of Bajoran resistance groups. Turn Bajor into an Iraq situation for the Cardassians.
 
I suppose if @OneirosTheWriter is planning to revise combat mechanics, here are some of the ways this could be done:
1) focus firing attack patterns (already in)
2) ships with sufficient combat allowing more than 1 damage to be dealt per turn to target ship (e.g. C6 ship could deal 2 damage per shot, or generalized to ceiling(C/5) damage)
3) area of effect weaponry where a ship could deal damage to multiple ships at once
Another option that addresses your concerns (by creating a useful reason for combat-focused explorer-sized ships to exist) would be if larger ships get bonuses to shield regeneration once we get higher in the tech tree, due to greater total power generation capability.

Combat mechanics might weigh ship with more combat higher.

For all we know, a ship with 4 Combat outshoots 2 ships with 2 combat each. (Say, if it's Combat^1.5 or something.)
It appears that the engine takes the combat of every ship in a fleet, adds them all up, and then raises to the 1.15 power. Then it compares the "raised to 1.15" numbers for both fleets and rolls randomly to see who hits.

This tends to slightly exaggerate the Combat advantage of the side with bigger guns. However, it also means that the engine does not discriminate between two Combat 5 ships and five Combat 2 ships, in terms of the effect on hit probability.

No, though response rolls for events are defense plus appropriate stat vs the response DC so a science ship is more likely to respond to a science event thanks to the higher science score. As for escorts generalist is more in line with the federation it seems and due to the combat cap something we need to consider. Right now with our yards working full out we could likely have around 18 C a year maybe more, that is 9 years to the current combat cap (though doctrine research extends this) and as we get more colonies and improve crew supply that number of C per year is likely to increase, more so with refits to the excelsiors. Still until the design sheet gets firmed up it is hard to say, if we can get a Centaur-A with all stats but combat improved for the same cost(including crew).

I do like Combat 3 Escorts since deploying the in border zones they count as Combat 2 vs the cap but can be built tough and good event responders.

Also I do not like the idea of pocket explorers, but I prefer cruisers capped at 2mt to keep build time to 3 years. 1mt escorts for 2 years of build time, 2mt cruisers for 3 years of build time and 3mt explorers for 4 years of build time. Only way to go bigger is once we get the construction time reduction techs because waiting 5 years for an explorer makes it hard to respond to changes in situations.
I agree with almost everything you said, except the part about it being unacceptable to have explorers take five years. Over time, you still end up with a steady trickle of one or two explorers coming out each year. Since under Lone Ranger it almost never makes sense for us to stop building explorers, if we're willing to build a few extra berths so that we can keep up the same rate of new construction, the extra build time doesn't matter much.

Long build time is more of a handicap for ships we might want to 'rush build' in reaction to an immediately foreseeable crisis. We've done that with the ConnieBees and Rennies, but we aren't doing that with Excelsiors, and I doubt we'd ever want that for our explorers.

Flexible doctrine research?
I think Oneiros wants to discourage us from easy doctrine-switching, in part to avoid us being able to quickly exchange one set of lasting bonuses for another. Logically, Combined Arms ought to be the most 'flexible' of the doctrine trees, but it is also a rather weak doctrine tree on the whole.

While I suspect that Bajor may well have occured without our intervention, I believe the appropriate quote in regard to the situation is: 'Never interrupt your opponent when he/she is making a mistake.'
As with Tasoli, I remember thinking along those very lines when we decided to push Bajor. ;)

We went and interrupted the Cardassians while they were purging each other. It would have ended sooner or later, and the Cardassians would have moved on Bajor sooner or later, but we definitely precipitated this result to happen faster.

Hopefully, we can atone for this by either making the Occupation less bad, or by bringing about an end to it sooner. If the Occupation runs from 2312-2350 instead of 2319-2367, I'm going to count that as a victory, albeit a rather flawed one.
 
If nothing else, the Cardassian's take over of Bajor, was a pretty sloppy one. I suspect the transition is not going to be an easy one at all.
 
It kind of depends on how the coup went and who they backed.

It sounds like the Cardassians may have actually backed the opponents of the traditional caste system (AKuz thinks this is what happened, and I'm sure she has reasons; I find the evidence a bit confusing). In that case, the Cardassians can probably deflect a lot of blame for their action onto Bajoran factions. On the one hand, they can say "Oh no, we're not engaging in a blatant power grab. We're just trying to help our good friends, the Bajoran meritocrats. Just like the Federation is helping the Orion Union!"

And on the other hand, they can blame anything that goes wrong on "high-caste saboteurs," the way Stalin blamed everything that went wrong in 1930s Russia on secret Trotskyites.

To some extent they can still play these cards if they did it the other way around, and backed the traditionalists at the expense of the anti-caste movement.

...

This is likely to work at least until Bajorans start resisting specifically the things the Cardassians demand, the ones that obviously have nothing to do with the caste system. At which point the Cardassians will probably show their true colors and start screaming and bloodying their knuckles, as happened in canon.

Going by what information is in canon, that may not happen until some time in the 2320s.
 
It kind of depends on how the coup went and who they backed.

It sounds like the Cardassians may have actually backed the opponents of the traditional caste system (AKuz thinks this is what happened, and I'm sure she has reasons; I find the evidence a bit confusing).

We know that the caste system was largely stamped out over the course of the Occupation. Its reasonable to assume that the Cardassians and their lackeys were opposed to it.
 
Well, I can easily imagine the Cardassians opportunistically supporting whichever side is desperate enough to ask them for help. So I do not know. That aspect of the situation will become more clear in a little time, I'm sure.

It's worth remembering that all this is happening weeks of travel from the Federation core worlds, and while fast communications exist, that doesn't automatically mean we can easily find out what's really going on over there in a hurry.

EDIT:

To clarify, I gather that a lot of the reason the caste system collapsed during the Occupation was that the Cardassians oppressed all castes. For example, they barred Bajoran religious teachings in a way that undermined the authority of the highest castes.

So it may well be that the Cardassians' occupation policies are going to exist, ah... "at right angles" to the caste system, upholding it in some ways (e.g. against Federation influence) but subverting it in other ways (e.g. by removing the traditional prerogatives of the high castes to lead Bajoran society).
 
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To clarify, I gather that a lot of the reason the caste system collapsed during the Occupation was that the Cardassians oppressed all castes. For example, they barred Bajoran religious teachings in a way that undermined the authority of the highest castes.

So it may well be that the Cardassians' occupation policies are going to exist, ah... "at right angles" to the caste system, upholding it in some ways (e.g. against Federation influence) but subverting it in other ways (e.g. by removing the traditional prerogatives of the high castes to lead Bajoran society).

I don't think so.

Historically, oppressive conquerors have used the existing infrastructure of their subjects to keep them oppressed. We know the Cardassians made extensive use of Bajoran "collaborators" during the occupation. Why would they not reinforce the caste system and choose collaborators from among the ruling caste, thus getting native cultural inertia on their side?

The easiest answer I can think of is that the Cardassians abolished the caste system as part of their initial conquest, and had collaborators among its opponents.
 
Or we could let the swarm doctrine-focused member fleets (Apiata and Caitians) to continue designing their own military escorts with Federation-wide starship technology. Such fleets have no obligation to follow our ship design militarisation rules, and can go wild with even BoP-esque or C-D>2 designs. This is one reason I don't want to force member fleets to adopt Starfleet designs.

edit: wording

That is an option, but I think we should, from time to time, have studies on the construction of military escorts, just in case we need to rush such a design into prototype and production. mind you, we won't be able to do this often, but having the groundwork done in case of dire need could save us a lot of hardship
 
Okay, closing vote!

Sol Sector – Requires D18
  • Current Q3 2311 - 1 Excelsior [Endurance] (6), 2 Miranda [Bon Vivant, Fidelity] (4), 1 Constellation [Selaya] (3), Starbase 1 (5) = 18D
  • New Q4 2311 - 1 Centaur-A (3) [Bull], 3 Miranda [Dryad, Bon Vivant, Fidelity] (6), 1 Constellation [Selaya] (3), 1 Oberth [Suvek] (1), Starbase 1 (5) = 18D
  • New Q2 2312 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Hood - New], 2 Miranda [Dryad, Bon Vivant] (4), 1 Constellation [Selaya] (3), 1 Oberth [Suvek] (1), Starbase 1 (5) = 18D
  • Notes: Sending the Endurance to man the new SBZ; reinforcing with Centaur from Amarkia and Oberth from Andor and Dryad from the Syndicate Taskforce. Then in 2312 reinforcing with Connie-B and sending Bull to Tellar Sector and the Fidelity to refit (if we choose to do that).

Vulcan Sector – Requires D12
  • Current Q3 2311 - 1 Constellation [Sappho] (3), 2 Mirandas (4) [T'Kumbra, Thunderhead], Starbase I (5) = 12D
  • New Q4 2311 – No change
  • New Q2 2312 – No change.
  • Notes: No reason to change.
Andor Sector – Requires D9
  • Current Q3 2311 - 1 Constellation (3) [Docana], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Lightning], 1 Miranda (2) [Eketha], 1 Oberth [Suvek] (1), Starbase I (5) = 14D
  • New Q4 2311 - 1 Constellation (3) [Docana], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Lightning], Starbase I (5) = 11D
  • New Q2 2312 – No change.
  • Notes: Fleet dropped to two ships to reinforce SBZ and Sol.
Tellar Sector – Requires D9
  • Current Q3 2311 - 1 Constellation (3) [Stalwart], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Gale], 2 Miranda (4) [Calypso, Shield], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 20D
  • New Q4 2311 - 1 Constellation (3) [Stalwart], 1 Miranda (2) [Shield], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 15D
  • New Q2 2312 – 1 Constellation (3) [Stalwart], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Bull], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 16D
  • Notes: With Starbase and extra outposts only two ships required now that Klivvar Proxima covered by the SBZ. Send away Gale and Calypso. In 2312 bring Bull in from Sol and send Shield to refit (if we choose to do so)

Amarkia Sector – Requires D15
  • Current Q3 2311 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Salnas], 2 Centaur-A (6) [Bull, Blizzard], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 22D
  • New Q4 2311 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Salnas], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Blizzard], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 19D
  • New Q2 2312 – No change.
  • Notes: Extra outposts mean that two Centaur-As are not required for "flooding the sector" defense requirement. Send Bull to reinforce Sol sector.

Ferasa Sector – Requires D15
  • Current Q3 2311 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Avandar], 1 Constitution-A (5) [Cheron], Starbase I (5)
  • New Q4 2311 – No change.
  • New Q2 2312 – No change.
  • Notes: High requirement for anti-syndicate 'flooding the sector'.
Rigel Sector – Requires D9
  • Current Q3 2311 – Starbase I (5)
  • New Q4 2311 - 1 Centaur-A [Gale] (3), 1 Miranda [Svai] (2), Starbase I (5) = 10D
  • New Q2 2312 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Republic - New], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Gale], Starbase I (5) = 13D
  • Notes: Initially reinforce with Miranda and Centaur-A from Tellar sector and RBZ, then in 2312 add Constitution-B and send Svai back to RBZ.

Romulan Border Zone – Requires D12
  • Current Q3 2311 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Excelsior], 1 Miranda (2) [Svai], Oberth [Hawking] (1), Starbase I (5) = 14D
  • New Q4 2311 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Excelsior], Oberth [Hawking] (1), Starbase I (5) = 12D
  • New Q2 2312 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Excelsior], 1 Miranda (2) [Svai], Oberth [Hawking] (1), Starbase I (5) = 14D
  • Notes: Send Svai off to Rigel until Connie-Bs are out and then bring it back.
Klingon Border Zone – Requires D6
  • Current Q3 2311 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Thirishar], 1 Miranda (2) [Intrepid], 1 Oberth (1) [Inspire]
  • New Q4 2311 – No change.
  • New Q2 2312 – No change.
  • Notes: Leave manned as is.
Cardassian Border Zone – Requires D10
  • Current Q3 2311 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Kumari), 2 Constellations (6) [Challorn, Vigour], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Winterwind] = 15D
  • New Q4 2311 – No change except Starbase I now added at Lapycorias. = 20D
  • New Q2 2312 – No change.
  • Notes: No change.
Sydraxian Border Zone – Requires D9
  • Current Q3 2311 – Starbase I (5) [Vega]
  • New Q4 2311 - 1 Excelsior [Endurance] (6), 2 Miranda (4) [Eketha, Calypso], Starbase I (5) [Vega] = 15D
  • New Q2 2312 – 1 Excelsior [Endurance] (6), 1 Centaur-A (3) [Zephyr], 2 Miranda (4) [Eketha, Calypso], Starbase I (5) [Vega] = 18D
  • Notes: Pulling Excelsior from Sol Sector and Calypso from Tellar Sector and Eketha from Andor Sector. Add the Zephyr when it's freed up in 2312Q2 from the anti-Syndicate Task Force.

Anti-Syndicate Task Force – No fixed Requirement
  • Current Q3 2311 - 2 Centaur-A [Yukikaze, Zephyr], 1 Constellation [Kearsage], 1 Miranda [Dryad]
  • New Q4 2311 – 2 Centaur-A [Yukikaze, Zephyr], 1 Constellation [Kearsage]
  • New Q2 2312 – 1 Constitution-B [Lexington - new], 1 Centaur-A [Yukikaze], 1 Constellation [Kearsage], 1 Oberth (1) [New Ship]
  • Notes: With loss of the Lion, send Dryad to reinforce Sol sector when it loses its Excelsior. In 2312 add one of the new Connie-Bs and the Oberth to the task force; send the Zephyr to the SBZ.
 
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Oh I forgot to vote, but it was unanimous. Our fleet's just stretched too thin to provide more options (that are significant enough to matter).

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 860 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.6

[X] Late 2311/ Early 2312 Deployment
No. of Votes: 6

Total No. of Voters: 6
 
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