Marriage or Perish
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- Sci-Fi
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ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
We can be friends, but only with major star empires like the Klingons and Romulans.
How is that joint research colony working out these days?
How is that joint research colony working out these days?
[X][RIGEL] Amash Hagan Research Office (Skill 2, Computers/Personal Tech)
[X][FERASA] Caitian Frontier Police R&D (Skill 2, Personal Tech/Communications)
[X][FERASA] Caitian Frontier Police R&D (Skill 2, Personal Tech/Communications)
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
I saw this episode. Roger Corby hadn't quite gotten it right yet.
Have you considered it's the other way around, though? So much in this quest is a multi-year process. It's possible you can't fight the Cardassians for Bajor in three or five years if we don't lay the groundwork this year. That to even have the right to fight a few years down the line, you have to build enough of a relationship with them now to justify fighting for them then.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Ugh...can we not refer to the prophets' actions as "divine intervention?" They did the equivalent of closing off their space to Dominion traffic, in exchange for a future favor. It was no more "divine intervention" than conducting diplomacy with any other species.
The biggest problem I (and probably other people) had with that subplot of DS9 is that the prophets were really, really not worthy of being called gods. Its understandable that the Bajorans would worship them, given their history with the orbs, but at some point in the show the Starfleet characters (who have all seen energy beings before) started drinking the koolaid as well, which makes zero sense. The wormhole aliens don't understand physical life forms well enough to know what's in our best interest, and in fact had trouble wrapping their minds around concepts like "linear time" and "personal agency" and "memory." They had some impressive powers, sure, but they were also very specific and limited powers, which is less like a god and more like just another interstellar power with a very different tech base. They could be killed by the right kind of exotic particles. Even their timelessness seemed to be a product of the realm they inhabited rather than their own innate nature (proof: the pah-wraiths were subject to linear time while living outside of the wormhole). They did nothing, at any point in the entire run of the show, to earn more reverence than the many, many other energy beings that the Federation has encountered in the past.
Then the fucking thing with Sisko's mother happened and weq;qlojrwqo[tjiew;ol'qlrj42[vuyt43[rt.
But anyway, I think some fans might be consciously or otherwise blaming the Bajorans for the writers' mishandling of the prophets in the later seasons. Which is unfortunate, because the Bajorans are the only ones whose worship of the prophets actually WAS justified.
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If the Federation can make 2800 ships disappear that easily maybe I'll stop.
At that point I think quibbling over that is sort of pedantic. At the Federation's power level, that borders on an act of God, remembering that they've reached the power level where traditional weather-based 'acts of god' are obsolete.However, in the interest of making sure this is a secular and rational examination I will be sure to annotate as such in the rest of this post.
I don't know if anyone really bought into it aside from Sisko, who was their divinely-appointed [from the Bajoran perspective] space baby. Unless you mean calling them Gods in general but at a certain point (THAT TIME THEY SAVED THE ENTIRE ALPHA QUADRANT) I think its sort of splitting hairs. They're operating on God [read this as free of judeo-christian contexts!]-lite levels, it's not inconceivable people would refer to them that way out of a sort of respect.
(seriously though who aside from sisko is drinking the kool-aid I don't remember that at all)
Like, I can't emphasize this enough, they deserve major props for saving the entire Alpha Quadrant. The Federation could not have won the war without closing the wormhole. When their cloaking mines failed, they had no backup aside from a miracle [in the secular sense of the word]. Or really hardcore diplomacy from their long-conceived religious figure that interfaced with them personally to pull of a miraculous [but again not in the religious sense, except kinda actually] act.
I don't really think the prophets themselves were mishandled, more the Pah-Wraiths, actually. It's kinda moot though. Bajorans would get shit on anyways if they worshiped Q , I suspect.
Apparently we need more Escorts for Captains to skill up on. Mass Escort build when?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The Romulans seem to manage, without an excessive number of ass-backwards Romulans around.
We think.
You misunderstand my points. Let me explain.
1) Cardassia was, in canon, willing to commit very large numbers of troops to hold Bajor in the face of a fairly intense guerilla opposition for forty years.
2) We know that the Cardassians used Bajor heavily for mining, so much so that it damaged the ecosystem, and that Cardassia is a resource-poor nation.
3) Given (1) and (2), the obvious hypothesis is that Bajor is valued by the Cardassians for its mineral resources, and that,
4) One of the motivating factors in the voluntary end of the Occupation MAY have been that by 2369, the Cardassians have alternative sources of resources, or that the Bajoran mines are largely played out.
Now, even if we reject this line of reasoning, the point is, there must have been something on Bajor that was prized by the Cardassians. Enough to make mining, exploitation, and settlement of the planet desirable to them, even given that they had to maintain large ground armies on the planet and supply them over interstellar distances. Even given that their military resources were presumably already stretched by simultaneously fighting the Federation, no doubt over something totally unrelated since the canon Federation basically did nothing to interfere with the Occupation.
Again, to recap: first key conclusion here is that Bajor is not 'just another mudball' to Cardassia. They will consider it a valuable location, albeit NOT one of game-changing strategic importance the way it would be if it held the only wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant.
...
Second key conclusion is that Bajor is more significant to Cardassia than, say, the Dawiar homeworld. The reasons for this are obvious.
The Dawiar are very obviously a client race the Cardassians opportunistically 'picked up' because it would enable them to give us a hard time. The Cardassians do not seem to respect the Dawiar, generally do not coordinate closely with them, and if there were heavy trade between the Cardassians and Dawiar, I am pretty sure we would have noticed. Losing access to Dawiar territory would not threaten the integrity of Cardassian space. Nor would a Federation presence in Dawiar space directly threaten any Cardassian person, place, or thing.
Now by contrast, consider Bajor. In Cardassia's hands, Bajor is a good forward rally point for their fleet. In our hands, it's a good forward rally for ours. In fact, it is so far forward that the Cardassians are going to view it as a launch-pad for attacks into their space. I mean seriously, Bajor is about twice as far from Earth and Vulcan as it is from Cardassia Prime. It's about the same distance from Amarkia as from Cardassia Prime. And until/unless we annex the Indorions and the Seyek, Bajor is MUCH closer to the valued Cardassian colony of Galundun than it is to any Federation colony, except the fortified starbase at Lapycorias.
Given the way Cardassians think, of course they will view this as an invasion beachhead waiting to happen. Us getting control of the Apiata and Indorions is problematic enough for them, but at least their homeworlds are more than two weeks' cruising distance from the nearest major Cardassian colony planets.
So to recap: Bajor is unusually valuable for its location, more so than the other worlds and client species the Cardassians have obtained.
...
Third key conclusion is that the Cardassians already think of Bajor as theirs.
This one is more or less apparent. They met the Bajorans first, or seem to have done so. They have a constant presence over the Bajoran homeworld, we don't. Bajor is close to them astrographically, and probably already trades with them. They probably think of Bajor as 'theirs' just as we think of the Indorions or the Caldonians as 'ours.'
...
Now, put all this together.
1) The Cardassians see some valuable prize on Bajor, something that in canon was worth considerable effort and expense to retain.
2) The Cardassians see Bajor as a location of value to them, and of even greater value to us, especially if we have the long-term intent to invade Cardassia.
3) The Cardassians see Bajor as a place that already belongs to them, but that we are trying to take away from them.
It is almost inevitable, combining those three factors, that Federation efforts to take Bajor will result in the Cardassians using their military to interfere with the process in a major way.
The obvious way, as both I and Briefvoice have noted, would be for them to simply attack the Bajorans and dare us to respond- or more subtly, to push their forces into Bajoran space via salami tactics. This would create internal political division within the Federation. Expansionists and hawks would want to fight, but pacifists and development advocates could point out that Bajor really IS very close to Cardassia, very far from the Federation's center of gravity, and
Furthermore, for a few more years, we are ill equipped to match Cardassian force with Federation force. We're threatened on three sides, plus a costly internal conflict with the Syndicate. Though we may be forced into that situation anyway depending on how the Apiata problem unrolls itself.
What it comes down to is that while the Cardassians may not fight us specifically to take Bajor, they are very likely to put us in a situation where we are forced to choose between war and disaster.
- Location
- Patriarchova
If the Federation can make 2800 ships disappear that easily maybe I'll stop.
However, in the interest of making sure this is a secular and rational examination I will be sure to annotate as such in the rest of this post.
I don't know if anyone really bought into it aside from Sisko, who was their divinely-appointed [from the Bajoran perspective] space baby. Unless you mean calling them Gods in general but at a certain point (THAT TIME THEY SAVED THE ENTIRE ALPHA QUADRANT) I think its sort of splitting hairs. They're operating on God [read this as free of judeo-christian contexts!]-lite levels, it's not inconceivable people would refer to them that way out of a sort of respect.
(seriously though who aside from sisko is drinking the kool-aid I don't remember that at all)
Like, I can't emphasize this enough, they deserve major props for saving the entire Alpha Quadrant. The Federation could not have won the war without closing the wormhole. When their cloaking mines failed, they had no backup aside from a miracle [in the secular sense of the word]. Or really hardcore diplomacy from their long-conceived religious figure that interfaced with them personally to pull of a miraculous [but again not in the religious sense, except kinda actually] act.
I don't really think the prophets themselves were mishandled, more the Pah-Wraiths, actually. It's kinda moot though. Bajorans would get shit on anyways if they worshiped Q , I suspect.
Will take this to PM to avoid derail.
Actually though, for all the Bajoran religion is pretty liberal in the DS9 era, it's worth mentioning again that right now they are under a religious caste system very similar to the Indian caste system, possibly even less egalitarian. It's quite probable if you don't like the Bajorans as they are in DS9, you will definitely not like them right now. In fact even if you like the Bajorans in DS9 you will probably not like them right now.
- Location
- Germany
The Defense Requirements aren't much of a problem as long as we refrain from pushing people who are already associates. It take quite some time to go fromm 100 to 500 with just yearly rolls. (And the occasional bonus from 5YMs or other events)
[X][RIGEL] Amash Hagan Research Office (Skill 2, Computers/Personal Tech)
[X][FERASA] Caitian Frontier Police R&D (Skill 2, Personal Tech/Communications)
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
I'm not sure if that the solution. We're currently expanding our fleet very fast, adding a lot of escorts would simply pass the issue one level down.
- Location
- Germany
As far as I know Bajor does not yet belong to the Cardassians.
There is a large difference between holding a good ressource-colony and choosing to fight over a potential ressource-colony.
If they had already chosen Bajor for mining and invested significant workpower in making mines it makes sense to keep investing and even fight over the planet. It would be a matter of both economics and principle.
But since that is not yet the case they might look for other planets with lots of minerals in their large territory. Or several planets with smaller but still useful mineral-reservoirs.
My point is that it's not certain that Bajor is now already as important for the Cardassians as you portray it her. At least for economy and image.
We should propably get a report on the current state of affairs on Bajor before assuming too much here.
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Bajor right now is at the sort of level where independent of Cardie concerns they need to stay Affiliates for a long time. Long enough for their culture to really soak in Federation principles, honestly long enough for the elders to slowly die off and a new generation to grow up having never not been in the UFP's influence. This is how you fix problems like that.
Personnel wants more non-Explorer sized command berths though. So they aren't worried by that.
- Location
- the Moon
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well, Q sure... Q's a bit of a dick. But Q would be fine I think. or maybe Q instead?
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
I'm up for establishing the church of Qute, personally.
Let others wage war, but you happy Federation, wage Membership.
I am, as is frequently the case in these, less concerned about the possible standup war (though that would be awful) than in the uneasy peace.
I would also like us to, and I've asked for this before, sit on our diplomatic hands just a little until the Federation can start to know itself again.
Most of the Federation knows the Founding Four. The Humans are neophilic explorers, the Vulcans are the calmest, most logical, violent wackjobs available, the Tellerites like arguing about things and building stuff and the Andorians are totally willing to have a war about things but they'd rather it didn't involve their friends fighting each other at the same time.
If we get Yrillian workgangs joining Starfleet, do we need to transfer them as units or can we split them up?
What the hell happens if an Apiatan Queen decides to take the officer track at the Academy?
I really suspect that the Federation Diplomatic Service includes diplomats not just between the different powers around and inside the Federation, or between the parts of the Federation, but from the Federation to itself. No seriously, let's say your Rigellian, and you hit the Apinae Sector. You can have done your research, finished all your reading, and that doesn't mean you know what the body language of an Indorian means. You need a professional! (Humans alone have had multiple ways of NODDING. Professionals people, so many professionals.)
Except that without Cardassian intervention they HAVE no motivation to change and are precisely the kind of society that respond to innovation or moves toward equality with oppression and outright violence? They've had spaceflight since humanity's sixteenth century and make RL Iran look like a dangerously liberal and progressive society.
If you think they're going to accept UFP 'influence' peacefully you're crazy. They've got Proud Nation syndrome.
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10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
As far as I understand it, personnel is worried that we don't have sufficient senior experienced captains. Because of that, they didn't have time to learn the ropes on smaller ships. Extra small ships would allow us a large pool to promote from in the future, but in the near term it's going to put even more pressure on our limited supply of captains.
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
IIRC Picard in the EU became the ambassador to Vulcan after retiring from the Fleet, so there may be something to that.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
That may never actually happen. We picked Lone Ranger doctrine for fleet construction very early on, and too many people have too much invested in that doctrine to change their minds. The only reason we have a lot of escorts now is that we inherited like 12-15 of them from game start, and we can't really afford to spam Excelsiors due to crew and resource constraints.
That's the best argument for a Bajoran push, and I respect it. At the same time, though, it kind of creates the same problem we have with the rapid expansion. By committing to it now, we may well be knocking loose the stone that triggers an avalanche a few years down the line. And we may or may not be ready for that avalanche when it arrives.
The counterargument, which I am not unmindful of, is that you'll always feel more prepared if given more time, and you'll never actually accomplish anything signif
Again, my reasoning is that the Klingons strength and toughness is natural... what they were engineered for is longevity, and intellect that allows them to more or less keep up with the Federation and Romulans technologically, despite the Federation having some damn good scientists.
The Klingons have been around on the interstellar scene since, what, the 1400s? Something has to have been limiting their growth or they'd have conquered much of the quadrant before humans even made their first warp drive. My working hypothesis here is that the Klingons used to be a bit more like the much-despised Kazons, who are also a species started out with medieval technology, but was then enslaved by interstellar conquerors they later overthrew by force.
But the Kazon turned out to be incapable of using the technology of their former masters to full effect. What if the Klingons used to have that problem, perhaps to a lesser extent? Internecine warfare, difficulty innovating technologically, a tendency to just copy whatever the Hurq used instead of coming up with their own solutions to problems?
Then the Klingons realize this, at the same time that the "pragmatist" school of Klingon politics which dominated in the TOS era came to power. And they start tinkering their children to be smarter (and, perhaps, longer-lived). This causes a bit of instability in Klingon appearance (in some cases corrected by cosmetic surgery later on), and combines with the pragmatist politics to create changes in Klingon government and culture.
By the TNG era, the traditionalists have won the culture wars and are kind of embarrassed to talk about the genetic modifications... But the positive effects of the tinkering are still there, and the Klingons are still long-lived, and smart enough to be competitive as scientists and engineers despite their culture seeming backwards, feudal, and battle-obsessed.
Although I suppose there IS another explanation for Klingons as we see them:
Me too, honestly.
I think we can do it, but I'm not sure at this time. Basically it would come down to relying on the member world fleets to hold the flanks, and secure the rear, with very limited support, while Starfleet fought the Cardassians themselves.
I can see that working out for us, but I can also see it backfiring badly. The problem isn't so much the Sydraxians, Yrillians, Lecarre, and Dawiar; they're pretty much straight-up military threats to our flanks, and the member world fleets can contain them. The problem is the Syndicate, which may well be able to paralyze the member world fleets trying to suppress it, and whose agents are well placed to make a lot of guerilla/terrorist trouble in the Federation's rear areas during a war with Cardassia.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Nash bangs the kai, and within a year the caste system is over.
kirklogic.jpg
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The flip side is, Oneiros has been constantly emphasizing that the Cardassians are a resource-hungry state. And canon strongly emphasizes that the Cardassians 'historically' extracted a lot of mineral wealth from Bajor, even though it would probably have been easier to build new mining colonies on uninhabited worlds, if they had such uninhabited worlds readily available as mining colony options.
Combine this with the positional importance of Bajor, and the fact that the Cardassians clearly have enough investment in Bajor that their high command will see it as being in their sphere of influence...
I just cannot see the Cardassians giving up Bajor without a fight, or a situation extremely likely to lead to a fight even if by a miracle we avoid such a fight.
Then they end up permanently stalled at 300+ status or 250-level status or whatever. It winds up taking thirty or fifty years for Bajorans willing to negotiate on the caste system to take over. Not a problem- or if it is a problem, it's one we can cope with.
I really wouldn't have a problem with trying to befriend Bajor, if it weren't for the likelihood of the Cardassians going ballistic over it. Sure, the caste system is oppressive and an obstacle to Federation membership. But it doesn't seem fundamentally worse than the system India has in real life as far as I know, and India has been able and willing to gradually break down its caste boundaries under pressure from the outside world too.
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