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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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aeqnai said:
After his dad had to make a deal with an Admiral involving taking full responsibility and being incarcerated for the crime of genetic engineering, yes.
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But like, for two years, which is about at the level of "having a grow-op," which shows what level of priority the Fed's at on this sort of thing.

It's important to note the Federation is actually better than United Earth in Archer's time, which banned any sort of genetic intervention.

Crazy Tom said:
The popular fear of genetic engineering is probably something akin to Japan's distaste for nuclear weapons. The Feds got burned by genetic engineering, and the trans-generational trauma is now ingrained in the public subconscious.
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That is the easy answer, but the more complicated factor is that like, literally every other signatory to the UFP does not push the envelope either. And nations that do are not particularly impressive by most post-human standards: see the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar.

This is just one of those Setting Things you have to accept, unless Oneiros is particularly interested in doing Trek Phase: A Game of Transhuman Diplomacy.

EDIT: Alternate titles - Ghost in the Excelsior; Deus Ex: Federation Revolution; Exploration Starship Alita; Duranium Component Ascending: Peacevengeance; Use of Weapons But Like A Star Trek Version
 
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Briefvoice said:
Well, I feel vindicated. The exact Tech team the other plan wanted we got for free. For all the hand-wringing about the Bajorans, in the end they're in too deep with the Cardassians and simply don't become affiliates. No major problem for us. And the Border Zone doesn't become active until Q4 meaning we only have to stretch deployments for two quarters until the first 3 Connie-Bs come out.

Every downside we were warned about for Betazoids Plus One failed to materialize.
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I am seeing a lack of an upside to increased Bajoran relationship without becoming affliates.

Simultaneously, our lack of selecting a tech team then means that we now have to select a tech now to accommodate, instead of getting a higher-skilled one.

Then, we also did not get a diplopush on the Gretarians.

Don't exult.
 
[X][FERASA] Caitian Frontier Police R&D (Skill 2, Personal Tech/Communications)
[X][RIGEL] Amash Hagan Research Office (Skill 2, Computers/Personal Tech)

Briefvoice said:
Well, I feel vindicated. The exact Tech team the other plan wanted we got for free. For all the hand-wringing about the Bajorans, in the end they're in too deep with the Cardassians and simply don't become affiliates. No major problem for us. And the Border Zone doesn't become active until Q4 meaning we only have to stretch deployments for two quarters until the first 3 Connie-Bs come out.

Every downside we were warned about for Betazoids Plus One failed to materialize.
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The reason I voted against it was because we're now still ignoring the Gretarans, who are still providing shipbuilding materials (possibly against their will) to the Sydraxians, who will most likely use them to attack us.
 
[X][FERASA] Caitian Frontier Police R&D (Skill 2, Personal Tech/Communications)
[X][RIGEL] Amash Hagan Research Office (Skill 2, Computers/Personal Tech)
 
EDIT:

@Leila Hann, what do you think about the headcanonish idea a few of us threw together a while ago, indicating that both the Klingons and Vulcans have some degree of genetic augmentation, with the Romulans having originally been unmodified Vulcans who left Vulcan after their crazy splicer cousins wound up going Surakist just so they could maintain control of their crazy splicer-level emotions?

Leila Hann said:
I doubt the Cardassians are going to do anything that drastic from just one diplopush on Bajor. At most, I'd expect them to put a few more ships in the CBZ and tell us to back off if we don't want trouble.
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I would be stunned if the Cardassians don't show up to try and re-establish control of Bajor by force some time between, oh, 100 and 300 relations. And our relations with Bajor are now on an upward ratchet

Its the hints we've gotten about the Apiata situation you should be worried about.
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You may be assured that I'm worried about that too.

Yeangst said:
So what if the Bajorans become our affiliates and then the Cardassians occupy the planet?

Are we willing to go to war to liberate them? If so, congratulations, we're now in a three front war. If not, then why would anyone become our affiliate again?
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Four; you forgot either the Syndicate, or the Lecarre/Dawiar.

Leila Hann said:
So much Bajoran hate in this thread...
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I like the Bajorans and want them to be safe. I just don't think we can reasonably guarantee their safety until and unless we spend about two or three more years dealing with all the other crud that's getting in our way, and building up our fleet so we can have flank defenses AND enough ships to beat the Cardassians at the same time- one thing the Gray October crisis showed us was that as of 2310, we were struggling to maintain that kind of combination.

Derek58 said:
Nice! Yrillians are close to Affiliate, Kadeshi are there, and Bajorans will be there if we can reduce Cardassian influence :D
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How do you propose to do that, pray tell?

Briefvoice said:
Well, I feel vindicated. The exact Tech team the other plan wanted we got for free. For all the hand-wringing about the Bajorans, in the end they're in too deep with the Cardassians and simply don't become affiliates. No major problem for us.
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UNLESS, of course, the Cardassian players over in Cardassian quest are busy pounding their screens and shouting "WHAT THE HELL," because they've been painstakingly raising relations with Bajor for several years and now they've got a message saying "Relations 315/500, close affiliate status obstructed, too much relationship with the Federation." In which case this may not turn out to be good news. The players of Cardassian Quest are pretty nasty people.

Plus, if the downside of pushing Bajor has failed to materialize (as yet less than certain), the upside has also failed to materialize- we don't have significant influence over Bajor's neighborhood. And the fundamental point we've been making remains valid- that sooner or later, both sides trying to establish a protectorate over the same planet will lead to war, and that the Cardassians aren't going to feel that they have the option of letting us establish a protectorate over Bajor.

I'm willing to fight the Cardassians over Bajor. If I weren't, I'd advocate simply accepting Cardassian control of the planet right now, because it is borderline inconceivable to me that the Cardassians will give up the planet without a fight.* But while I'm willing to do it, I don't think we can do it this year. It looks like hopefully we won't have to... but who knows?
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*Whatever is there, in canon it was so precious the Cardassians were willing to fight a forty year guerilla war to keep it, and they didn't give Bajor up until they were already in a tense conflict with the Federation- and even then they didn't give it up until they'd spent years fighting the Federation.
 
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Cornuthaum said:
That reminds me, @OneirosTheWriter, did we ever research Away Team Uniform Pockets? :V
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As inane as it sounds, the lack of pockets is also probably a diplomatic thing. "See, we don't have any hidden weapons because we can't." Unlike the cloaks, pockets might be something we can fix if we're actually willing to pay the political cost. Well, maybe we COULD get cloaks. Just not starship cloaks.

Though I have to think cloaks would make a transporter operator's job a pain in the ass... "Well, your buttocks are on backwards. But you look cool!"
 
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Simon_Jester said:
*Whatever is there, in canon it was so precious the Cardassians were willing to fight a forty year guerilla war to keep it, and they didn't give Bajor up until they were already in a tense conflict with the Federation- and even then they didn't give it up until they'd spent years fighting the Federation.
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That's a bit disingenuous. As far as I know, the entire Federation-Cardassian war was not fought over Bajor. Bajor was a significant source of raw materials for Cardassia, but it wasn't the lynchpin of the Cardassian military. Bajor really only became game-changingly important when the wormhole stabilized and it became the sole point of contact for an entire quadrant of the galaxy.

Bajor may end up being the spark that ignites the powderkeg, but that's not guaranteed, and it won't be the sole reason for the fight.
 
Iron Wolf said:
Too bad too, that was a really good diplo roll.


We just need to wait for a pro-Federation revolutionary government to take power there and then install long-range torpedos aimed at the heart of Cardassian space. I am sure this will not cause some sort of 'crisis' involving 'missiles'.
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Bah, history is on our side. We will bury the Cardassians! *bangs shoe on desk*
 
Simon_Jester said:
EDIT:

@Leila Hann, what do you think about the headcanonish idea a few of us threw together a while ago, indicating that both the Klingons and Vulcans have some degree of genetic augmentation, with the Romulans having originally been unmodified Vulcans who left Vulcan after their crazy splicer cousins wound up going Surakist just so they could maintain control of their crazy splicer-level emotions?
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I wasn't a fan at first, but the more I've thought about it the more I've warmed to the idea. I don't think romulans have ever displayed the kind of physical strength, intelligence, or psionic powers that the vulcans have onscreen. At this point, I'm willing to accept it as headcanon.

I do think the Romulans did a bit of gengineering on themselves afterward, to increase their numbers and help them to adapt to their new homeworld, but nothing on the scale of the shit their ancestors attempted. The Remans may be a Romulan offshoot who went too far again, and were oppressed because of that.

Not seeing any need for genetic engineering in the Klingons' backstory. We know that they came from a deathworld full of violent beasts, so their strength and toughness are only natural for that biosphere. They have not demonstrated any other traits that require a non-Darwinian explanation either.

I would be stunned if the Cardassians don't show up to try and re-establish control of Bajor by force some time between, oh, 100 and 300 relations. And our relations with Bajor are now on an upward ratchet

You may be assured that I'm worried about that too.

I like the Bajorans and want them to be safe. I just don't think we can reasonably guarantee their safety until and unless we spend about two or three more years dealing with all the other crud that's getting in our way, and building up our fleet so we can have flank defenses AND enough ships to beat the Cardassians at the same time- one thing the Gray October crisis showed us was that as of 2310, we were struggling to maintain that kind of combination.
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I wasn't against the Bajor push out of fear of the Cardassians. I was against it because we can only do 4 pushes per turn, and the Gretarans are both a) much more strategically important right now, and b) much more easily helped in their current predicament if they require it. All we get by pushing Bajor is keeping the Cardassians on their toes, which is nice and all but I would have much rather cut off tribute to the Sydraxians.

Regarding the Bajoran hate comment: I don't have any strong feelings about them one way or the other. I'm just surprised by the number of people who voted against the Bajoran diplopush out of dislike rather than strategic interest.
 
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[x][FERASA] Admiral Niraya K'Niri (Skill 3, Offensive Doctrine/Foreign Analysis)
[x][RIGEL] Amash Hagan Research Office (Skill 2, Computers/Personal Tech)

If you want me to vote for a fifth Personal Tech team, then you should justify it as another communications team. Communications is one of the best chains we have – arguably behind only computers and xeno-psychology – so the team would almost certainly be used there. However, better personal tech seem less useful then more intelligence briefs or cheaper berths. Given what people claim it would be used for, this seems more useful.
 
Regarding Bajor, is the diplo term Obstructed defined anywhere, or are we simply assuming that we treat them as if Non-Affiliates (no automatic yearly rolls for increased diplomacy, not considered an Affiliate for actual diplomatic purposes)?
 
[X][FERASA] Caitian Frontier Police R&D (Skill 2, Personal Tech/Communications)
[X][RIGEL] Lagan-Shir Drafting Office (Skill 3, Construction/Ship Design - Cruiser)
 
Iron Wolf said:
There is like, a weirdly widespread hate among Trek fans for the Bajorans I just can't grok.
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aeqnai said:
Honest I quite like the Bajorans, I don't understand the hate at all.
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They were a pain in the ass for Sisko to deal with, but that was pretty clearly because they were a basketcase of a state that had just endured half a century of brutal colonialism. I doubt any other species would have done better, in their place.

It could also be that some people hold them, rather than the writers, responsible for the atrocity that was season 7's prophet/pahwraith arc.
 
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[X][FERASA] S'Naranya Design Team (Skill 2, Weapons/Ship Design - Escort)
[x][RIGEL] Amash Hagan Research Office (Skill 2, Computers/Personal Tech)
 
Honestly, looking at current fleet numbers, I don't think the situation is as desperate as people seem to think. The Cardassians had a total combat score of 148 last year, so assuming a Jaldun and an escort or two finished they aren't above 160. Of course, the Sydraxians, the Syndicate, the Lecarre, and the Dawiar (possibly) will weigh in on the Cardassian side, so we've got to add that in as well. Using the high end for Sydraxian numbers they've got 10 Centaur grade escorts and 4 Jaldun grade cruisers, so about another 50 combat there. We don't have any current estimates for the Syndicate fleet strength, but I doubt it's very large, given they aren't really suited for open combat. Maybe 20-30 combat at the most. Same lack of information for the Lecarre, so I'll add another 30. The Dawiar have been building up their military, but they've also taken losses in the Caitian-Dawiar war so coupled with their low tech base I wouldn't give them more than forty. So for a rough estimate that assumes everyone currently Cardassian aligned helps them and is at maximum strength we get a total of about 310 Combat. Of course combat isn't the only score that determines battles, but it's a good start.

Now let's look at the Federation. By the front page the current combat total is 144, which including blooded and veteran crews is about 150. The real difference comes from the member fleets. Based on the tallies from the last MWCO, the combined member fleets of all current Federation members plus the Rigellians give us an additional 301 combat (plus another six because we know the Amarki just finished a third Riala). Then assuming the Apiata and Indorians get dragged into this hypothetical war (which seems a fair assumption given geography) you get easily another 50-60. So the combined total for the Federation members plus the Apiata and Indorians is about 500. This is assuming none of the other members on the border like the Seyek or Qloathi help, and that the Orion Union does nothing to help against the Syndicate. So just looking at raw combat scores, I'd say the Federation has an advantage currently, which will only get larger.

Now obviously there are a large number of assumptions being made here, but the point is that we aren't really outmatched by the Cardassians at this time. We've got a decent lead thanks to the size of our member fleets, and once our new cruisers start finishing that lead only gets bigger. Right now I'm confident we could hold the line against a Cardassian attack easily, and in a few years we could be the ones attacking if need be.
 
Myself, I'm reaching the stage where I'd favor slowing down diplomatic pushes altogether. We're expanding almost too fast, it seems like; our ship production and so forth seems to be barely enough to keep up with our growing Defense requirements as-is. We're stretching ourselves thin, and I find it all too easy to imagine the Cardassians looking at us struggling to keep ships where they're needed and deciding that they can try to nick some of our territory.

In regards to the Bajorans in specific, there's no hate on my part. But in addition to the expansion business, their location makes them rather unpalatable additions. Not just talking in the sense that it could provoke the Cardassians, either; looking at its position on the map, it's risky to try and hold, too. In a theoretical war it would act as an incredibly obvious salient, and it looks far too easy to cut off from supply or reinforcement. The only reason to try and push on it would be knowledge of the occupation and its costs, and frankly that firstly requires us to be militarily capable of telling the Cardassians to back off, a highly questionable prospect at current to say the least, and secondly it may already have been achieved by this diplomatic deadlock we've established here. I won't be retroactively happy about the Bajoran diplomatic push having gone through, but if I might suggest a compromise, might we leave the Bajoran situation as it is? Nothing wrong with having an independent buffer state of sorts, after all.

Oh, and a vote.

[X][FERASA] Admiral Niraya K'Niri (Skill 3, Offensive Doctrine/Foreign Analysis)
[X][RIGEL] Amash Hagan Research Office (Skill 2, Computers/Personal Tech)

Yeah sure, sounds good.
 
[X][FERASA] Caitian Frontier Police R&D (Skill 2, Personal Tech/Communications)

[X][RIGEL] Amash Hagan Research Office (Skill 2, Computers/Personal Tech)
 
Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the Klingons and Romulans taking any war with the Cardassians as an excuse to strike. Remember, we know thier buildup to war is predicated on becoming the Top Cheese to oppose the Federation -- but they might abandon those plans (politics permitting) if they sense they can neuter the Federation in a post-war environment.

Leila Hann said:
It could also be that some people hold them, rather than the writers, responsible for the atrocity that was season 7's prophet/pahwraith arc.
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There's definitely an anti-religious element there, which is funny to me because the Bajoran religion is actually pretty liberal, more liberal than most of our contemporary ones. They only really want you to acknowledge the Prophets -- a species whose divine intervention literally saved the Alpha Quadrant -- as gods, and seem pretty chill on other issues. I think the worst we see of them is bombing a (deliberately IIRC) empty school? Compared to the PIRA, Boko Haram, or gay conversion therapy that's pretty fuckin mild there.

Indeed it's really mild when you remember they were murdering Cardassians with little regard for collateral damage a lot of the time.
 
Interested Party said:
Myself, I'm reaching the stage where I'd favor slowing down diplomatic pushes altogether. We're expanding almost too fast, it seems like; our ship production and so forth seems to be barely enough to keep up with our growing Defense requirements as-is. We're stretching ourselves thin, and I find it all too easy to imagine the Cardassians looking at us struggling to keep ships where they're needed and deciding that they can try to nick some of our territory.

In regards to the Bajorans in specific, there's no hate on my part. But in addition to the expansion business, their location makes them rather unpalatable additions. Not just talking in the sense that it could provoke the Cardassians, either; looking at its position on the map, it's risky to try and hold, too. In a theoretical war it would act as an incredibly obvious salient, and it looks far too easy to cut off from supply or reinforcement. The only reason to try and push on it would be knowledge of the occupation and its costs, and frankly that firstly requires us to be militarily capable of telling the Cardassians to back off, a highly questionable prospect at current to say the least, and secondly it may already have been achieved by this diplomatic deadlock we've established here. I won't be retroactively happy about the Bajoran diplomatic push having gone through, but if I might suggest a compromise, might we leave the Bajoran situation as it is? Nothing wrong with having an independent buffer state of sorts, after all.

Oh, and a vote.

[X][FERASA] Admiral Niraya K'Niri (Skill 3, Offensive Doctrine/Foreign Analysis)
[X][RIGEL] Amash Hagan Research Office (Skill 2, Computers/Personal Tech)

Yeah sure, sounds good.
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Personally, I wish we could improve our relations with people without it making them want to join the Federation. Can't we just be friends?

Anyway, there's no reason not to push the Dawiar, because they're going to end up inside of our territory no matter what happens at this point, and it would be better for all involved if they're not still Cardassian clients by then. The Yrillians and Gretarans...I don't want them as affiliates, I just want them to help us resolve this bullshit with the Sydraxians.
 
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