To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Void Stalker · Dec 11, 2016

So I was looking at our fleet and we only need 5 more excelsiors to have one per sector including Rigel and Apiata sector. Of the current ones, Tellar, Vulcan and Andor do not have one. The one finishing in '12 is for the explorer corp, then we have 1 in '13, 1 in '14, 2 in '15 and I believe we voted on two more to start this turn meaning 2 in '16 though one is likely an explorer corp. Still at that point unless we add the Sydraxian border zone we can have an Excelsior in each sector

lbmaian · Dec 11, 2016

Briefvoice said:
They did take different amounts of time in the original snakepit options.

Er what? The snakepit option says "Request new Starbase I [Write in Sector] 20pp for home sectors or CBZ , 30pp for KBZ", which says nothing about when the starbases would finish.

Void Stalker said:
I do think we need to take the constellation refit soon though, that buys us another 7 D.

Alternatively, we could build 2 more Constitution-Bs next year and get 10 more defense in about the same time frame. It would fit our shipbuilding plans for Renaissance, though it would be tight, and if we're unlucky, we may need to either delay a Renaissance or sell a Constellation for crew.

I kinda want to delay the Constellation-A refit until at least next year, because it would give as a chance to revise the refit with the revamped ship design spreadsheet.

If we could get a C4 S3 H3 L3 P3 D4 stat line with something like 50br 30sr refit cost, then I would totally be fine with that, considering the crew savings (over building a new ship instead).

Simon_Jester said:
Honestly, it seems like the economic boosts from the 300+ affiliates don't really do more than cancel out the added costs of building enough ships to defend their sectors. I'm not sure this is such a good idea. I do favor more first contacts and deep-space exploration, but we have to be judicious in who we talk to, and to what extent.

We don't have garrison requirements until affiliates become full members. There's still an obligation to defend affiliate territory in case of emergencies, but that also applies to all affiliates, whether major (300+) or minor (100+).

aeqnai said:
The Kadeshi... if we can get an intel report on them sometime that'd be great for the purposes of 'where the hell are they going' but I'd not want to push them until that question has some kind of answer.

Problem with that is that this is likely our last chance with the Kadeshi. We can't afford to wait for an intel report if they're already gone.

I'm intensely curious to see what a Kadeshi affiliate would look like if they actually do full migration, leaving no one behind near Federation territory.

Leila Hann · Dec 11, 2016

aeqnai said:
I definitely want to see the Dawiar and Yrillians pushed. Having the Seyek advanced some more would prevent the shenanigans from Grey October from reoccuring but isn't that much a priority. The Kadeshi... if we can get an intel report on them sometime that'd be great for the purposes of 'where the hell are they going' but I'd not want to push them until that question has some kind of answer. The Bajorans are a scary kettle of fish but whenever I think of reasons not to push I keep remembering the looming specter of the Occupation...

e: And the Gretarians actually, definitely should be pushed as well. At the very least to try to find out more about the Sydraxians, but denying them shipbuilding supplies is also a priority.

I see no need to spend an intel report or a diplopush on the Kadeshi. If they want to travel through our space, then they'll come to us. If they don't, we'll just give them our best wishes before they depart. We don't have much at stake with them besides the possibility of getting some nice replicator tech.

Yrillians are a must. We want to stop Yrillian pirates from harassing our coreward flank, and to get them to close off their space to Sydraxian raiders. Pushing the Yrillians is probably the single best thing we can do to improve the Federation's short term security right now.

Dawiar aren't vital, but if we let the Cardassians get them back into the fold again they could make drawing any future borders in the CBZ extremely complicated. Using Cardassia's moment of weakness to tear the Dawiar away could make things much easier for us in the long run.

Seyek would be nice, but they're strong enough to not be in any immediate danger, and their relations with us are already pretty good. I think we can afford to wait a turn or three before pushing them.

Definitely push the Gretarans. They're our best bet for making peace with the Sydraxians, and they may be in need of our help.

Bajorans...I don't think a single diplopush will be enough to start a war with the Cardassians. If anything, the Cardassian reaction to it might tell us a lot about how they'd respond to further overtures, and about the possible occupation timeline. Worth it, but not urgent. I'd wait for next quarter.

So, in order of priority:

1. Yrillians
2. Dawiar
3. Gretarans
4. Bajorans
5. Seyek
6. Kadeshi

I say we stick to just three diplopushes (Yrillians, Dawiar, and Gretarans) this quarter.

aeqnai · Dec 11, 2016

Void Stalker said:
So I was looking at our fleet and we only need 5 more excelsiors to have one per sector including Rigel and Apiata sector. Of the current ones, Tellar, Vulcan and Andor do not have one. The one finishing in '12 is for the explorer corp, then we have 1 in '13, 1 in '14, 2 in '15 and I believe we voted on two more to start this turn meaning 2 in '16 though one is likely an explorer corp. Still at that point unless we add the Sydraxian border zone we can have an Excelsior in each sector

Tellar and Andor, IIRC, either have an Excelsior in their home fleet or have one currently being built for their home fleet, so that may be somewhat less of a concern.

lbmaian said:
Problem with that is that this is likely our last chance with the Kadeshi. We can't afford to wait for an intel report if they're already gone.

I'm intensely curious to see what a Kadeshi affiliate would look like if they actually do full migration, leaving no one behind near Federation territory.

I suppose... but what if that answer turns out to be 'we have an affiliate out far beyond Starfleet support, possibly on the other side of major powers known or unknown, who might be under various threats we could not hope to help them with in a reasonable time or with a reasonably-sized force of arms'?

Nervos Belli · Dec 11, 2016

aeqnai said:
Tellar and Andor, IIRC, either have an Excelsior in their home fleet or have one currently being built for their home fleet, so that may be somewhat less of a concern.

I suppose... but what if that answer turns out to be 'we have an affiliate out far beyond Starfleet support, possibly on the other side of major powers known or unknown, who might be under various threats we could not hope to help them with in a reasonable time or with a reasonably-sized force of arms'?

That's Tellar and Earth, although Andor is planning one I believe.

AKuz · Dec 11, 2016

Well.....

Suppose we do push the Kadeshi or are even just friendly with them. How would that work? They are going on a long term mission. One that will be full of dangers, adventure and exploration. What if we sent a little expedition along side them?

I mean the Explorer Corps already just buggers off out of Federation space to explore. What if they just had a trajectory matching that of the Kadeshi exiles?

I mean say, send a task force of, oh, say.... Enterprise, an escort or two (Pair of centaurs or a ConnieBee) an Oberth or a Constellation.

Then put it under the command of an officer used to exploration and danger and who has experience with the Kadeshi and indeed is probably one of the few officers well known to them for her part in the Battles around Kadeshi (Yes, Nash. Of course it's Commodore Ka'Sharren. Even leaving aside her popularity, she'd be the best choice anyway.)

... I actually kind of like this idea. Exploration and aide in one neat package.

Simon_Jester · Dec 11, 2016

Nervos Belli said:
That's Tellar and Earth, although Andor is planning one I believe.

Remember, I want explorers in our sector fleets not just to physically defend the sectors, but because they're the ships that most consistently pass event checks. I'd be screaming for science vessels to cover our home sectors, and advocating for dedicated Presence ships, if we didn't have the Excelsior flagships to fall back on.

Member world Excelsiors are good, but they don't respond to events- or at least don't do so in a way that benefits US.

Void Stalker said:
So I was looking at our fleet and we only need 5 more excelsiors to have one per sector including Rigel and Apiata sector. Of the current ones, Tellar, Vulcan and Andor do not have one. The one finishing in '12 is for the explorer corp, then we have 1 in '13, 1 in '14, 2 in '15 and I believe we voted on two more to start this turn meaning 2 in '16 though one is likely an explorer corp. Still at that point unless we add the Sydraxian border zone we can have an Excelsior in each sector

That's good, and I'll be glad when that happens.

It occurs to me that there may also come a future time at which we can transfer some of the Explorer Corps Excelsiors to frontier duty, in order to free up Explorer Corps personnel to have Ambassadors doing five year missions in their stead. Although that would not always be a beneficial thing to do; it'd depend on a lot of details.

lbmaian said:
We don't have garrison requirements until affiliates become full members. There's still an obligation to defend affiliate territory in case of emergencies, but that also applies to all affiliates, whether major (300+) or minor (100+).

The problem is that it is only a matter of time before a 300+ affiliate becomes a full member, and in that time, the affiliate only gives us so much in the way of resources and crew. It's worth trying to estimate, from the size of that gift, whether we can even reliably afford to build the ships it takes to meet our defense requirement out of that quantity of resources and crew.

Obviously the new sectors pay for themselves eventually, but we should bear in mind that it's not necessarily always to our advantage to have a swarm of 300+ affiliates. That was the state we were in back in, oh, '06 to '08... and now we find that we have no ability to avoid bringing in new members at an extremely rapid pace.

Nervos Belli · Dec 11, 2016

AKuz said:
Well.....

Suppose we do push the Kadeshi or are even just friendly with them. How would that work? They are going on a long term mission. One that will be full of dangers, adventure and exploration. What if we sent a little expedition along side them?

I mean the Explorer Corps already just buggers off out of Federation space to explore. What if they just had a trajectory matching that of the Kadeshi exiles?

I mean say, send a task force of, oh, say.... Enterprise, an escort or two (Pair of centaurs or a ConnieBee) an Oberth or a Constellation.

Then put it under the command of an officer used to exploration and danger and who has experience with the Kadeshi and indeed is probably one of the few officers well known to them for her part in the Battles around Kadeshi (Yes, Nash. Of course it's Commodore Ka'Sharren. Even leaving aside her popularity, she'd be the best choice anyway.)

... I actually kind of like this idea. Exploration and aide in one neat package.

It's a nice idea, but can we really scrape together an escort fleet right now? Between Rigel joining and anti-Syndicate ops we're going to be pressed for ships until next year when the first Connie-Bees finish.

I'd totally be cool with having Enterprise escort them at least part of the way though. And Mrr'Shan was at Kadesh, even if she wasn't in command at the time.

Leila Hann · Dec 11, 2016

AKuz said:
Well.....

Suppose we do push the Kadeshi or are even just friendly with them. How would that work? They are going on a long term mission. One that will be full of dangers, adventure and exploration. What if we sent a little expedition along side them?

I mean the Explorer Corps already just buggers off out of Federation space to explore. What if they just had a trajectory matching that of the Kadeshi exiles?

I mean say, send a task force of, oh, say.... Enterprise, an escort or two (Pair of centaurs or a ConnieBee) an Oberth or a Constellation.

Then put it under the command of an officer used to exploration and danger and who has experience with the Kadeshi and indeed is probably one of the few officers well known to them for her part in the Battles around Kadeshi (Yes, Nash. Of course it's Commodore Ka'Sharren. Even leaving aside her popularity, she'd be the best choice anyway.)

... I actually kind of like this idea. Exploration and aide in one neat package.

Be careful what you wish for.

aeqnai · Dec 11, 2016

And now my mind has wandered to 'if we used technobabble to separate all of Janeway's personalities and give them clone bodies, could we crew a ship with them?'

lbmaian · Dec 11, 2016

Leila Hann said:
Bajorans...I don't think a single diplopush will be enough to start a war with the Cardassians. If anything, the Cardassian reaction to it might tell us a lot about how they'd respond to further overtures, and about the possible occupation timeline. Worth it, but not urgent. I'd wait for next quarter.

Do you mean next year rather than next quarter?

If so, next year might be too late if the Cardassians get their foreign diplomacy act together. It's why I'm very tempted to diplo push the Bajor this year despite the risk.

Leila Hann said:
I see no need to spend an intel report or a diplopush on the Kadeshi. If they want to travel through our space, then they'll come to us. If they don't, we'll just give them our best wishes before they depart. We don't have much at stake with them besides the possibility of getting some nice replicator tech.

aeqnai said:
I suppose... but what if that answer turns out to be 'we have an affiliate out far beyond Starfleet support, possibly on the other side of major powers known or unknown, who might be under various threats we could not hope to help them with in a reasonable time or with a reasonably-sized force of arms'?

But that's why I want to push the Kadeshi. Because this is something new, and we don't know what such an affiliate would be like. There are 3 reasons to push the Kadeshi: possible tech, a sense of responsibility, and curiosity. It's that last one that's really driving my decision. It's like the reason (or one of them) that we kept pushing the Amarki so early on - because we wanted to see what a new full member would be like.

AKuz said:
Well.....

Suppose we do push the Kadeshi iron are even just friendly with them. How would that work? They are going on a long term mission. One that will be full of dangers, adventure and exploration. What if we sent a little expedition along side them?

I mean the Explorer Corps already just buggers off out of Federation space to explore. What if they just had a trajectory matching that of the Kadeshi exiles?

I mean say, send a task force of, oh, say.... Enterprise, an escort or two (Pair of centaurs or a ConnieBee) an Oberth or a Constellation.

Then put it under the command of an officer used to exploration and danger and who has experience with the Kadeshi and indeed is probably one of the few officers well known to them for her part in the Battles around Kadeshi (Yes, Nash. Of course it's Commodore Ka'Sharren. Even leaving aside her popularity, she'd be the best choice anyway.)

... I actually kind of like this idea. Exploration and aide in one neat package.

That would be an interesting idea.

I don't think we'd need a task force though given that there already is a huge Kadeshi fleet, and FYMs are mostly self-sufficient, and oh

Oh I see where this is going :3

AKuz · Dec 11, 2016

Nervos Belli said:
It's a nice idea, but can we really scrape together an escort fleet right now? Between Rigel joining and anti-Syndicate ops we're going to be pressed for ships until next year when the first Connie-Bees finish.

I'd totally be cool with having Enterprise escort them at least part of the way though. And Mrr'Shan was at Kadesh, even if she wasn't in command at the time.

I think it will take time for the Kadeshi to even travel through our space. They may even make stops here and there to shake out their systems, doctrines, and eqipment while close to aid. We may even be able to convince them to give everyone us a chance to load them up with equipment that they do not have and to let our people talk to them about all our accumulated deep space experience. We've ignored them long enough. We should really make it up to them.

And even if ee can't send a proper little task force, At the very least we can send along one or two of our EC vessels to escort them part of the way anyway.

Nervos Belli · Dec 11, 2016

aeqnai said:
And now my mind has wandered to 'if we used technobabble to separate all of Janeway's personalities and give them clone bodies, could we crew a ship with them?'

Even if we could, why would we want too?

Night · Dec 11, 2016

aeqnai said:
And now my mind has wandered to 'if we used technobabble to separate all of Janeway's personalities and give them clone bodies, could we crew a ship with them?'

Only a Defiant-class, but yes.

Leila Hann · Dec 11, 2016

lbmaian said:
Do you mean next year rather than next quarter?

I meant next quarter.

Sending one of our 5YM ships to accompany the Kadeshi could be cool.

Simon_Jester · Dec 11, 2016

I think that would be a great idea, especially since they don't have any specific clearly defined tasks now like they used to be assigned to "scout out the area around Dawiar space" or things like that.

AlphaDelta · Dec 11, 2016

Leila Hann said:
I meant next quarter.

Sending one of our 5YM ships to accompany the Kadeshi could be cool.

Who should we send?

Simon_Jester said:
Leila, you're not wrong. I'd say no 100-level affiliate should be pushed more than once. And that's just to make sure they're reasonably 'safe' in the event that we get hit with a relation penalty due to something going wrong. After that role is made,

...

Hm. Just thought about our failed Science event in that one sector. The sad thing is, our upcoming cruisers don't have better Science than a Centaur-A would. We really do need more science vessels, especially since the only way to REALLY get multiple low-Science ships to add up like a single high-Science ship for purposes of a given event is with Swarm Doctrine's bonuses.

Of course, under current design paradigms, there is no way to build a ship with more Science points than techs, which is a REALLY serious deterrent to building dedicated science vessels of any kind, especially ones with science above about five.

For those of you who don't follow the shipbuilding thread, there's a new sheet that Oneiros is working on.

It's mostly complete, and is in the "add more parts" and balance phase. (Overweight) Rennie with O2E2T2!

Once more new parts come in (Excelsior parts are heavy), I should be able to produce a ship that fits.

AKuz · Dec 11, 2016

(About a third of my reasoning for sending more than one ship out with the Kadeshi is to give Nash the command of that task force. A roving sector Commodoreship if you would. Even leaving aside my biased... appreciation for the character, she would be the best fit for it on temperamental, experience, and diplomatic levels)

Simon_Jester · Dec 11, 2016

AlphaDelta said:
For those of you who don't follow the shipbuilding thread, there's a new sheet that Oneiros is working on.

It's mostly complete, and is in the "add more parts" and balance phase. (Overweight) Rennie with O2E2T2!

Once more new parts come in (Excelsior parts are heavy), I should be able to produce a ship that fits.

If the crew requirements are THAT low, and drop that fast for the next generation of designs... it'll throw the whole game out of balance.

@OneirosTheWriter, is this true? I missed the part where people could manage that.

Leila Hann · Dec 11, 2016

AlphaDelta said:
Who should we send?

I'd say Mbeki due to his first contact bonus, but he could probably use more experience first. Maybe Rosalee?

Nash would be great, but we'd need a ship to give her, and I don't think we can just yoink an Explorer Corps excelsior out from under its current captain.

aeqnai · Dec 11, 2016

AKuz said:
(About a third of my reasoning for sending more than one ship out with the Kadeshi is to give Nash the command of that task force. A roving sector Commodoreship if you would. Even leaving aside my biased... appreciation for the character, she would be the best fit for it on temperamental, experience, and diplomatic levels)

Nash and Mrr'shan were both there at Kadesh, so it fits.

(And having Nash still be out doing important things is fun, and this gives her an excuse to sit in the chair again TOS Movie style :grin:

)

AKuz · Dec 11, 2016

AlphaDelta said:
Who should we send?.

Are you kidding me? The answer is Enterprise. It is /always/ Enterprise.

> : V

Though there is no reason not to send more than one vessel. They will be striking out into the unknown anyway. No reason not give them a general direction and a push. No need to feel limited.

Leila Hann · Dec 11, 2016

AKuz said:
Are you kidding me? The answer is Enterprise. It is /always/ Enterprise.

> : V

Though there is no reason not to send more than one vessel. They will be striking out into the unknown anyway. No reason not give them a general direction and a push. No need to feel limited.

There is a reason, actually. The 5YM ships help improve relations with our neighbors, discover resources, prevent catastrophes, and take point in major conflicts. Sending more than one of them away is going to weaken us considerably, depending on how far away the Kadeshi plan to go.

AKuz · Dec 11, 2016

Leila Hann said:
There is a reason, actually. The 5YM ships help improve relations with our neighbors, discover resources, prevent catastrophes, and take point in major conflicts. Sending more than one of them away is going to weaken us considerably.

Ah right.

Edit: Still. The answer is Enterprise. > : P

Simon_Jester · Dec 11, 2016

Leila Hann said:
I'd say Mbeki due to his first contact bonus, but he could probably use more experience first. Maybe Rosalee?

Nash would be great, but we'd need to give her an excelsior...

AKuz said:
Are you kidding me? The answer is Enterprise. It is /always/ Enterprise.

> : V

Though there is no reason not to send more than one vessel. They will be striking out into the unknown anyway. No reason not give them a general direction and a push. No need to feel limited.

We could send Mbeki as a captain and Nash as a commodore to provide that experience, to do the deep-field work scouting around the Kadeshi refugee fleet, while Mrr'shan and the Enterprise handle more close-in responsibilities and directly assist if the fleet is threatened.

Although Nash would of course spend some of her time flipping back and forth between the two ships, and don't you juuuust know what would happen in an emergency.

Sounds like a PERFECT basis for To Boldly Go: The Motion Picture! Due to be released as a summer blockbuster between Seasons Six and Seven!

Or we could just send Enterprise. Still works, and worst case if we blow a Presence roll on a first contact, at least the aliens we pissed off live a long way away?

EDIT:

Wait, Mbeki in Miracht helps with diplomacy that ISN'T first contact!

We should be leaving him at home anyway!

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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