To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[Shard]

What is the reasoning and benefit of Bajor joining the Federation anyhow? Compared to any other member, at any rate.

If only we had some sort of hidden ship they could rapidly beam out to. Maybe some kind of undetectable cloaking device that breaks all the rules about what can be used at the same time as a cloak?

Nah, that sounds ridiculous. Who would have something like that stashed away?

Spoiler

(not actually suggesting that, it's a bit too far fetched and the council would murder us for working on cloaking)

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We could also automate the ship. I believe Kirk's Enterprise had to deal with an AI at one point.

Just have the ship autoattack and not retreat, and voila! It's not like we need it to function effectivrly, do we?

 

[AKuz]

What is the reasoning and benefit of Bajor joining the Federation anyhow? Compared to any other member, at any rate.

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They liked themselves some DS9

 

[random_npc]

What is the reasoning and benefit of Bajor joining the Federation anyhow? Compared to any other member, at any rate.

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we know in canon the Cardassians went maximum exploitation on Bajor, Like congo levels of exploitation almost. Though I think they will be less willing to go that far now, since they know damn well-doing something like that would provoke the federation to begin interfering.

 

[Erandil]

What is the reasoning and benefit of Bajor joining the Federation anyhow? Compared to any other member, at any rate.

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OC: It seems like most people liked them during DS9 and want to prevent them from suffering under a Cardassian occupation.

IC: Bajor is positioned directly between us and the Cardassians which makes them an ideal base of operation (be it economic, military or even intelligence) for either side. There is also the possibility of the Bajoran wormhole (which connects the Alpha and Gamma quadrant) being present/active which makes the system even more strategically relevant and opens a near endless number of possibilities. Plus ethical concerns as seen in OC.

 

[Iron Wolf]

The major hurdle with Bajor is that they are as of right now locked into a caste system. A pretty regressive one, even. They will likely find the really atheistic nature of the Fed off putting at this stage.

 

[Derek58]

The major hurdle with Bajor is that they are as of right now locked into a caste system. A pretty regressive one, even. They will likely find the really atheistic nature of the Fed off putting at this stage.

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If we can get the Apiata, with their biologically ingrained insect-like colony system, close to joining, getting Bajor to change their caste system is well within our capabilities.

 

[random_npc]

that's different. The Apita had a biological imperative they were willing to stop enforcing, the Bajoran's have a beloved cultural cornerstone that they would likely be loath to abandon.

 

[Algalon]

So long as the Bajorans allow people to leave their castes when leaving for other places, and treat alien immigrants fairly, we can just copy-paste the Apiata solution.

 

[AlphaDelta]

Yeah, I think we should have the Games & Theory Division research team [Skill 3 Foreign Analysis/Offensive] work on Klingon analysis starting next year, now that we've wrapped up all the T2 Lone Ranger techs. That extra intel report is low hanging fruit.



Well we could use them to grab new ship stat lines.

This reminds me: @OneirosTheWriter, with the analysis of the Kadak-Tor, do we get the confirmed stats of the Kaldar? We're like 90% sure the stat line is C5 S3 H4 L4 P3 D5, but we don't know the resource or crew costs (latter should be greater than Jaldun's [O-3, E-4, T-3]).



I would really like a diplo push on Kadeshi.

Then there are 3 nations that are affiliates or near-affiliates of Cardassians that we can push: Dawiar, Yrillian, Bajor

And then the Gretarians which are starting to get bullied by Sydraxians.

I was planning to vote for the following for diplo pushes: Kadeshi, Dawiar, Yrillian, Gretarian

But unless I'm convinced this would be a really bad idea, I'd be amenable to swapping for: Kadeshi, Dawiar, Yrillian, Bajor



IIRC, our votes were pretty similar back then and too late for the bandwagon.



Right, go ahead and put a dampener on a stupidly awesome idea, why don't you



That's the spirit!



Actually, that snakepit option cost increased to 25pp this year (2310).

And 10:1 br:pp isn't as good as the snakepit option even at 20pp. 20pp would just get us 200br, and that's about half of 230br+150sr from the snakepit option.



Er, I think you're going the wrong way with the ratios. 30:1 br:pp and 20:1 sr:pp would mean 300br and 200br for 20pp, which is better than the original 20pp snakepit option, and probably still better at its current 25pp cost.

edit: typos

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I would rather trade the Yrillians for Bajor.

 

[lbmaian]

I'm sorry, I was genuinely unaware that the former existed. I knew about "gun Takaakis" but didn't know their statline. I figured everything would be in the OP of the design thread, since that's the whole point of that post existing.

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No need to apologize. Speaking of which, @UbeOne, care to update the SDB front page from info in:
Sci-Fi - Starfleet Ship Design Bureau ("To Boldly Go...") | Page 35 (Amarkian ship crew costs)
Sci-Fi - Starfleet Ship Design Bureau ("To Boldly Go...") | Page 43 (Cardassian ship designs)

Then there's this bit about Sydraxian ships:

The Sydraxians operate two types of ship - one is an escort called a Hasque which we consider to be broadly similar to a Centaur or Centaur-A in terms of performance. The other is a Kalindrax, which is a heavy-weight cruiser, sort of like a more well-rounded, faster Jaldun-class that masses about 1.8mt.

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and I speculated that their stat lines were:

Hasque - between Centaur & Centaur-A, assuming a bit more combat-oriented than science/presence-oriented:
C3 S2 H2 L3 P2 D3

Kalindrax - well-rounded & faster Jaldun:
C4 S4 H4 L4 P4 D5

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edit: take above estimates with a large grain of salt, and if you list them, just use the descriptions that Oneiros stated.

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Hmm.. is militarization penalty per ship built, or for the design of the ship. Or both?

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I'm not sure, but I was leaning toward per-ship cost, because if it was per-design, then we could eat like 3 militarization to design some awesome combat ship and then keep churning them out.

I would rather trade the Yrillians for Bajor.

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That's also fair, especially if the Yrillian brief omake is made canon, and it's unclear what faction we'd want to support yet. Still, the clock's ticking before they get too far into the Cardassian sphere of influence, and then they'll be Dawiar Mk II.

 

[Derek58]

that's different. The Apita had a biological imperative they were willing to stop enforcing, the Bajoran's have a beloved cultural cornerstone that they would likely be loath to abandon.

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Yes, and the cultural caste system is much less difficult to change compared to something built into one's biology.

 

[Erandil]

Yes, and the cultural caste system is much less difficult to change compared to something built into one's biology.

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To be fair we didn't really change the Apiata's system that much, we simply offered an alternative way of dealing with some of its problems. I doubt that the situation on Apiata and Co has actually changed much (in fact in might have even regressed since we "steal" any opponents^^). And for the Federation itself a biological difference might be easier to accept that a cultural one since the former isn't really made by choice while the later is something most of the races of the Federation likely feel they have overcome sometime in their history.

 

[Derek58]

To be fair we didn't really change the Apiata's system that much, we simply offered an alternative way of dealing with some of its problems. I doubt that the situation on Apiata and Co has actually changed much (in fact in might have even regressed since we "steal" any opponents^^).

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That doesn't sound like it's even close enough to them being in a state that the Federation would be willing to accept them as a Member like they're very close to doing.

 

[ClawClawBite]

If we could even get Bajor to a neutral port status in a neutral zone, that would be fine too. We don't know that they want to go Team Federation if there were no Cardassians, but setting things up so they are not a mining world is nice.

 

[Shard]

I'm not sure, but I was leaning toward per-ship cost, because if it was per-design, then we could eat like 3 militarization to design some awesome combat ship and then keep churning them out.

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I'm just wondering what the stats for a pure combat ship would work out like.

 

[UbeOne]

I'm just wondering what the stats for a pure combat ship would work out like.

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C10 S1 H3 L6 P4 D4

 

[lbmaian]

I'm just wondering what the stats for a pure combat ship would work out like.

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For an 900kt escort that's doable with current tech with tier 2 fudge factors (reusing Constitution saucer and Miranda rollbar):

Mobile Torpedo Launcher [300m 900k t]
C5 S0 H4 L5 P0 D3
Cost[90br, 55sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-4, T-0]
Militarisation 13

edit: oops got the cost wrong, it's 90br/55sr

edit2:

An even "better" design:

Technically Mobile Torpedo Launcher [300m 900k t]
C7 S0 H2 L6 P0 D1
Cost[90br, 65sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-0]
Militarisation 19

Same crew cost as a Miranda and only +10br/-5sr compared to a Centaur-A.

It's a steal

 

[Leila Hann]

It looks to me that the logical conclusion of a war between the Klingons and the Romulans is both superpowers collapsing.

And then another power sweeping in..

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To be honest, telling them that might be the best way to prevent war.

"Go ahead, bruh. Fight, you can totally take them bruh. You've got nothing to fear from our direction once your forces are all depleted, we're completely tied up with the Cardassians, we promise bruh. Come on, you're not going to let them get away with pushing you around, bruh, you know we're just trying to help you bruh."

 

[Night]

Militarisation 13

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What I'm getting from this is that only the Borg make Defiant possible.

 

[Erandil]

To be honest, telling them that might be the best way to prevent war.

"Go ahead, bruh. Fight, you can totally take them bruh. You've got nothing to fear from our direction once your forces are all depleted, we're completely tied up with the Cardassians, we promise bruh. Come on, you're not going to let them get away with pushing you around, bruh, you know we're just trying to help you bruh."

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The Rom's and Klingon's probably have a better idea about how the Federation works and that such an aggressive action is likely.

 

[Shard]

For an 900kt escort that's doable with current tech with tier 2 fudge factors (reusing Constitution saucer and Miranda rollbar):

Mobile Torpedo Launcher [300m 900k t]
C5 S0 H4 L5 P0 D3
Cost[90br, 55sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-4, T-0]
Militarisation 13

edit: oops got the cost wrong, it's 90br/55sr

edit2:

An even "better" design:

Technically Mobile Torpedo Launcher [300m 900k t]
C7 S0 H2 L6 P0 D1
Cost[90br, 65sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-0]
Militarisation 19

Same crew cost as a Miranda and only +10br/-5sr compared to a Centaur-A.

It's a steal

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I'm starting to wonder if other powers build pure combat ships.

What's it like for a hypothetical ship with maximum berth size? An 'Explorer', as it were. Also is that 19 Militarization for doing the design?

 

[UbeOne]

It looks to me that the logical conclusion of a war between the Klingons and the Romulans is both superpowers collapsing.

And then another power sweeping in..

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"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."

 

[Shard]

The Rom's and Klingon's probably have a better idea about how the Federation works and that such an aggressive action is likely.

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As I undertsand, they're attacking each other because they trust that we won't intervene.

All we have to do is cast doubt into that.

Somehow. (As in, it's easy, but other factors we might want to consider make it hard.)

"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own."

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The Federation is actually like the Borg, with the major advantage that they can use things like Creativity to their advantage, which the Borg made the mistake of accidentally purging from the collective. Otw the Borg would have long since assimilated the galaxy..

So in that sense, the Federation also adds their assimilated races' Mental distinctiveness.

 

[Leila Hann]

As I undertsand, they're attacking each other because they trust that we won't intervene.

All we have to do is cast doubt into that.

Somehow. (As in, it's easy, but other factors we might want to consider make it hard.)

The Federation is actually like the Borg, with the major advantage that they can use things like Creativity to their advantage, which the Borg made the mistake of accidentally purging from the collective. Otw the Borg would have long since assimilated the galaxy..

So in that sense, the Federation also adds their assimilated races' Mental distinctiveness.

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As I've said before, the Borg are basically a Silent Hill version of the Federation. Which is part of what made them such an excellent foil.


We should ask the Gretarans how they feel about paying tribute to the Sydraxians. It could be that this is a mutually beneficial relationship like we have with our own affiliates, but given what we know of the Sydraxians I suspect that its more like the Bronze Age tributary system. If I'm right, we should send some forces to defend the Gretarans, which will both protect them from the fallout of our own conflict and deny resources to the Sydraxian fleet-building program.

I'm also pretty sure at this point that the Sydraxians were just desperate for an enemy. My guess is that they're a bit like the Klingons, and grow restless when they don't have someone to fight. The Cardassian black ops thingy just provided the needed excuse.

We should also strike while iron's hot with the Dawiar and Lecurre. The Dawiar have been lied to by the Cardassians, and now are being refused help when they ask for it. They're probably starting to wonder what the point of being a Cardassian client even is, and we've built up some considerable good will with them. The Lecurre are mistrustful and paranoid, but we may be able to use that. The galaxy is a scary place, and you need someone more reliable than the Cardassians to protect you.

I'd love to do a push on the Yrillians as well, but we may not have the PP for it.

 

[lbmaian]

What I'm getting from this is that only the Borg make Defiant possible.

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The Defiant stat line (which UbeOne posted) generates 12 militarization.

I'm starting to wonder if other powers build pure combat ships.

What's it like for a hypothetical ship with maximum berth size? An 'Explorer', as it were.

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3mt explorer dreadnought with tier 2 fudge factors and around 98% reliability:

We Come In Peace [500m 3m t]
C13 S0 H8 L10 P0 D5
Cost[300br, 210sr, 4 years], Crew [O-13, E-9, T-0]
Militarisation 16

Shoot To Kill [500m 3m t]
C20 S0 H4 L7 P0 D1
Cost[300br, 230sr, 4 years], Crew [O-20, E-6, T-0]
Militarisation 19

Also is that 19 Militarization for doing the design?

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It might be per ship rather than design, too.

The rules for militarization:
If (C - D) > (C + D) / 2, +3
If (C - D) > (C + D) / 3, +3
If C > (S + P + D), +6
If C - S > 2, +3
If S = 0, +2
If P = 0, +2
So max militarization is 19

The Federation is actually like the Borg, with the major advantage that they can use things like Creativity to their advantage, which the Borg made the mistake of accidentally purging from the collective. Otw the Borg would have long since assimilated the galaxy..

So in that sense, the Federation also adds their assimilated races' Mental distinctiveness.

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Article:

"I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their 'rightful place' on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

Source: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/For_the_Cause_(episode)

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We should ask the Gretarans how they feel about paying tribute to the Sydraxians. It could be that this is a mutually beneficial relationship like we have with our own affiliates, but given what we know of the Sydraxians I suspect that its more like the Bronze Age tributary system. If I'm right, we should send some forces to defend the Gretarans, which will both protect them and deny resources to the Sydraxian fleet-building program.

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If the Sydraxian border zone option included space around Gretaria and Yrillia, I'd be much more inclined to buy that option, since it would increase events around those two nations, including ones that could improve relations.

Otherwise, the best we can do is hope one of our FYMs stays around that area for events. But we don't have direct control over our FYMs.

We should also strike while iron's hot with the Dawiar and Lecurre. The Dawiar have been lied to by the Cardassians, and now are being refused help when they ask for it. They're probably starting to wonder what the point of being a Cardassian client even is, and we've built up some considerable good will with them. The Lecurre are mistrustful and paranoid, but we may be able to use that. The galaxy is a scary place, and you need someone more reliable than the Cardassians to protect you.

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Can we even try a diplo push for the Lecurre? I thought we couldn't do any for nations we have negative relations with.