To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[Briefvoice]

Right now the main thing limiting us from pushing for more members is needing the pushes to counter Cardassian diplomacy instead. The 5 Connie-Bs started last year and the 2 more we'd build with my plan along with another 2-3 sector fleet Excelsiors would be enough to cover the Caitians, Rigellians, Apinae, Indorians, Caldonians and Gaeni joining.

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I don't agree it would be enough. Maybe enough to cover Defense requirements as they are right now, but not if they rise next year as we were told to expect.

Any debate on deployment plan Coreward focus? It would be nice to catch more events on the KBZ, but probably not a crisis if we don't. And our CBZ fleet is already quite beefy, with no less than three Blooded ships there. Contrariwise, those Sydraxians raids could do a lot of damage if we can't get ships to our colonies in time. Two extra Centaur-As in Sol and Tellar Prime could make all the difference.

 

[Gear]

[X][NAME] Thirishar
[X][BUILD] Base Plan Forge Ahead
[X][ASSIGN] Base Plan Core Focus

 

[DarknessSmiles]

are we going to meet that 120 defense requirement? and is that in ships only or ships+installations?

[X][ASSIGN] Core Focus
[X][BUILD] Mixture

and i can get behind that assignment. however, if we do go with it, we should probably consider making the sydraxian border zone. every argument for using this deployment plan is just as relevant for getting the SBZ

 

[Void Stalker]

I don't agree it would be enough. Maybe enough to cover Defense requirements as they are right now, but not if they rise next year as we were told to expect.

Any debate on deployment plan Coreward focus? It would be nice to catch more events on the KBZ, but probably not a crisis if we don't. And our CBZ fleet is already quite beefy, with no less than three Blooded ships there. Contrariwise, those Sydraxians raids could do a lot of damage if we can't get ships to our colonies in time. Two extra Centaur-As in Sol and Tellar Prime could make all the difference.

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I'd rather spread the centaurs out and use that to rotate some Miranda's to tellar. also sold sector has a strong starfleet force currently

For me it's less the defense requirement for new races as trying to keep enough ships in a sector. so betazoids and others part of an existing Sector have my preference there as with outposts and starbase it is easier to juggle defense requirements.

Also right now I want to keep pushes on non affiliates to move them into our camp

 

[Nix]

@Briefvoice has a point about protecting the Tellar and Sol sectors, I edited my assignment plan:

[X][ASSIGN] Base Plan Covering all Bases
-[X] USS Salnas [Excelsior]-> Amarkia
-[X] USS Avandar [Excelsior] -> Andor
-[X] USS Winterwind [Centaur-A] -> CBZ
-[X] USS Lightning [Centaur-A] -> Tellar
-[X] USS Calypso [Miranda, Vulcan] -> Tellar
-[X] USS Gale [Centaur-A] -> Vulcan
-[X] USS Bull [Centaur-A] -> Sol
-[X] USS Faithful [Miranda, RBZ] -> Sol

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I still think spreading out the Centaur-As for better event coverage is important, but now Sol gets the Bull instead of the KBZ, and A Miranda is moved off the RBZ and Vulcan (which both still have more defense than before thanks to the Gale and the new starbase)

 

[DarknessSmiles]

@Briefvoice has a point about protecting the Tellar and Sol sectors, I edited my assignment plan:

I still think spreading out the Centaur-As for better event coverage is important, but now Sol gets the Bull instead of the KBZ, and A Miranda is moved off the RBZ and Vulcan (which both still have more defense than before thanks to the Gale and the new starbase)

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you really, really should make a new plan since that one is massively different, even if you need to tag everyone who voted for your previous deployment plan to let them know.

 

[Nix]

you really, really should make a new plan since that one is massively different, even if you need to tag everyone who voted for your previous deployment plan to let them know.

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I'm usually careful about that, but I expect most people who voted for it did so because I was spreading out the new ships as the name says and because they trusted me. If people tell me that's wrong I will name it mark 2 or something.

 

[Simon_Jester]

If you're doing something radically different than your original plan, and people voted for it because they trusted you, you should tell them you're changing your plan so as not to betray their trust.

If you're doing something radically different than your original plan, and people voted for it because they thought it was a good idea, you should tell them you're changing your plan so they know that the idea they're voting for is no longer the one they originally approved.

...

Not being literally alone on one side of an argument is dispersing some of my crankiness, so thank you, @Briefvoice, @Gears. I want to add an [ASSIGN] vote to my votes, while reaffirming my idea on Forge Ahead, though I'm still not ready to say more in defense of the plan than I already said a page or two ago.

[X][ASSIGN] Base Plan Core Focus
[X][BUILD] Base Plan Forge Ahead
-[X] 1 Excelsior-class explorer @ San Francisco Fleet Yards
-[X] 2 Constitution-B-class cruisers @ 40 Eridani A Shipyards, in the one-megaton berths
-[X] 1 Constitution-B-class cruiser @ Ana Font Shipyard, in the one-megaton berth, starting in Q2.
-[X] 1 Constitution-B-class cruiser @ Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards, in the second one-megaton berth, starting in Q2.
-[X] Refit to remaining Centaur @ 40 Eridani A Shipyards, in three-megaton berth B,

[Goes off to take out trash and play with Kerbals]

 

[Nix]

If you're doing something radically different than your original plan, and people voted for it because they trusted you, you should tell them you're changing your plan so as not to betray their trust.

If you're doing something radically different than your original plan, and people voted for it because they thought it was a good idea, you should tell them you're changing your plan so they know that the idea they're voting for is no longer the one they originally approved.

Click to shrink...

I feel fixing a clear problem with a plan but keeping the spirit is within the normal mandate, if the change doesn't impact anything people have singled out as advantage of the plan beforehand. If there had been two popular plans before I would be very reluctant to change any of the major differences to the other plan after people had been voting according to those differences, even if I was persuaded that the other plan was right, I'd just switch my own vote. I have changed things about plans before, and be asked to change things at other times that I decided against because of the reasons like above, but without ruling out changing things categorically.

 

[HearthBorn]

I believe we wanted to order up a refit now, mind you, so likely more cuts. Also, we should be getting pp for new member ratification if it happens. e: And we probably want a tech team.

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Hmm, so maybe something like
-40 for 4x Diplo (Q'Loath, Bajoran, Y'Rillian, Dawiar, or something like that)
-50 for counsellors
-30 for MWCO
-35 for Miranda refit
=155

So, if we get 20-ish in Q1, the above is possible. Of course, this doesn't count a science team, which would be another 20.

 

[Yeangst]

I'm fine with the change.

 

[tryrar]

As am I

 

[Void Stalker]

Im fine with the changes.

 

[AlphaDelta]

I'm fine too

 

[Briefvoice]

I would like to make a case for the following Snakepit options:

1. Diplo Push on the Rigellians - I know everyone is very worried about countering Cardassian diplomacy, but the Rigellians could be members in 2311 if we push them this year. They are the best choice for many reasons:
A. Long history with and familiarity with the Federation. (No surprises there.)
B. Equivalent technology level and come with their own Starbase and Member Fleet, likely adding considerably to Starfleet resources.
C. Peaceful and industrious.
D. Well away from the Cardassian border.

We can afford to limit the non-affiliate pushes to 3 in order to sneak them in.

2. Constellation Refit - This would be over the Miranda refit. Multiple reasons:
A. Lone Ranger Doctrine favors Constellations, which are Cruisers and would get +1 Response.
B. Constellations refit adds Defense; Mirandas do not.
C. Constellation refit was slightly cheaper than Miranda refit last time we checked. 5pp is 5 pp, right?
D. Encourages Member Fleets to refit Constellations, fitting a Federation-wide larger ship focus.

3. Ongoing Budget Increase (If Nix's plan wins and we do not request an Excelsior's worth of Resources).
A. We have not had a budget increase since the end of the Biophase crisis.
B. Will help ease the SR bottleneck currently limiting production.

 

[Nix]

I don't agree it would be enough. Maybe enough to cover Defense requirements as they are right now, but not if they rise next year as we were told to expect.

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1 Excelsior for each of the 3 new sectors, 1 Connie-B for each of the 3 other new key systems, 4 Connie Bs to trade for 3 Constellations and 6 Mirandas from the older sectors, 1 Constellation in each sector and 1 Miranda for each Key system -> 5+6+3+2 = 16D for each sector, 5+2 = 7D for each non-sector key world. That's significantly higher than what current demands would indicate. For the old sectors we are quite a bit above current demands overall (though very unevenly so shuffling might be required). In any case we are unlikely to actually be able to get all of those 6 to join in the next 3 years anyway, unless we use most of our diplomatic pushes for it which we aren't going to do, so even if you disagree with being able to cover defence requirements that still doesn't mean an extra Connie-B (at the cost of an Oberth) and one a year early would make a difference in regards to accessions.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

I would like to make a case for the following Snakepit options:

1. Diplo Push on the Rigellians - I know everyone is very worried about countering Cardassian diplomacy, but the Rigellians could be members in 2311 if we push them this year. They are the best choice for many reasons:
A. Long history with and familiarity with the Federation. (No surprises there.)
B. Equivalent technology level and come with their own Starbase and Member Fleet, likely adding considerably to Starfleet resources.
C. Peaceful and industrious.
D. Well away from the Cardassian border.

We can afford to limit the non-affiliate pushes to 3 in order to sneak them in.

2. Constellation Refit - This would be over the Miranda refit. Multiple reasons:
A. Lone Ranger Doctrine favors Constellations, which are Cruisers and would get +1 Response.
B. Constellations refit adds Defense; Mirandas do not.
C. Constellation refit was slightly cheaper than Miranda refit last time we checked. 5pp is 5 pp, right?
D. Encourages Member Fleets to refit Constellations, fitting a Federation-wide larger ship focus.

3. Ongoing Budget Increase (If Nix's plan wins and we do not request an Excelsior's worth of Resources).
A. We have not had a budget increase since the end of the Biophase crisis.
B. Will help ease the SR bottleneck currently limiting production.

Click to shrink...

-40 diplo
-30-35 refit
-25 budget
=95-100 spent, ~30 to 50 remaining
So then one of:
-30 MWCO
-50 Counsellors

Depends a bit on additional income but within realm of possibility.

 

[UberJJK]

[X][NAME] Thirishar
[X][BUILD] Plan Forge Ahead
[X][ASSIGN] Plan Core Focus

 

[pheonix89]

[X][BUILD] Base Plan Mixture
[X][ASSIGN] Base Plan Covering all Bases

 

[Briefvoice]

So one reason I was surprised at the reluctance to vote for a "request resource" plan was that a lot of people seemed a lot more on board just a few days ago. Can I ask what changed your minds in the following cases? I have a feeling it might be the Oberth for a lot of people, but I'd certainly be willing to go for 3 Connie-Bs and an Oberth in a resource request plan over two Connie-Bs and an Oberth.

[] Explorer, 3 Connie-Bs, Oberth, Snakepit
Opinion will likely be heavily influenced by further discussion, but I really want another Oberth, for events and also to show how we're totes science inclined, and I have no problem with asking for more resources.

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[X][ASSIGN] Base Plan Covering all Bases
[X][BUILD] Base Plan Mixture

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[] Explorer, 2 Connie-Bs, No Snakepit vs [] Explorer, 4 Connie-Bs, Snakepit vs [] Explorer, 3 Connie-Bs, Oberth, Snakepit

is pretty clear that 20pp buys us an extra 10 combat, or 5 combat, 5 science. 2x as much combat as a Starbase would. Yeah, Connie-Bs will make it really hard to justify ever turning down the extra materials.

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[X][ASSIGN] Base Plan Covering all Bases
[X][NAME] USS Yamamoto
[X][BUILD] Plan Mixture

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I'm voting for request resources, 1 excelsior, 3 C-B, 1 Oberth.

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[X][BUILD] Mixture

[X][ASSIGN] Covering all Bases

I'm normally high on resource requests, but this is a reasonable plan and we can then buy a budget increase or counsellors, which I feel we should get out of the way as soon as we can afford it.

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TBH I think we should get both refits and squeeze them in as scheduling permits. Admittedly that's in part to buff member fleets.

I've also changed my mind towards this option.

[] Explorer, 4 Connie-Bs, Snakepit

Full cruiser rush.

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[Happerry]

[X][BUILD] Base Plan Mixture
[X][ASSIGN] Base Plan Covering all Bases
[X][NAME] Diversity

 

[pheonix89]

Mainly Nix's point that we're pretty blatantly abusing the request one-time infusion mechanic.

 

[Muer'ci]

So one reason I was surprised at the reluctance to vote for a "request resource" plan was that a lot of people seemed a lot more on board just a few days ago. Can I ask what changed your minds in the following cases? I have a feeling it might be the Oberth for a lot of people, but I'd certainly be willing to go for 3 Connie-Bs and an Oberth in a resource request plan over two Connie-Bs and an Oberth.

Click to shrink...

Oberth for me, yeah. I feel more strongly about it than (not)asking for resources, though spending saved pp on something else would be nice.

 

[DarknessSmiles]

i really just want to spend the 20 PP elsewhere.

i think we are better off expanding at a rate we can afford with our current income, and using our PP to expand that rate long term, rather than using our PP to make more aggressive expansion now.

we are expanding our construction capabilities without expanding our resource income, and that just does not make sense.

having a few berths unused is not a bad thing. heck, not building anything new for a year or two (maybe just doing some refits) and saving up resources for a big pile of rennies may be the correct decision.

 

[Nix]

So one reason I was surprised at the reluctance to vote for a "request resource" plan was that a lot of people seemed a lot more on board just a few days ago. Can I ask what changed your minds in the following cases? I have a feeling it might be the Oberth for a lot of people, but I'd certainly be willing to go for 3 Connie-Bs and an Oberth in a resource request plan over two Connie-Bs and an Oberth.

Click to shrink...

I think the fact that the no snakepit plans you presented were pretty weak also has a lot to do with it. They should at the very least have included Excelsior, 2 Connie-Bs and a Centaur refit.