First smaller ship of comparable equal/superior across the board performance is the Intrepid, assuming it doesn't eat a nerf sometime in the couple hundred turns between now and then.
First smaller ship of comparable equal/superior across the board performance is the Intrepid, assuming it doesn't eat a nerf sometime in the couple hundred turns between now and then.
This has come up in the design thread a few times, but if you're looking for comparable performance for smaller size or cost, you're going to be looking for a long time. The Niagra is a larger 3mt cruiser that costs very slightly less, uses a little less crew, isn't even better all-around in stats, and its introduction date is ~40 years away.
Smaller ships of comparable performance don't happen for decades and decades. We could easily go through two Excelsior refits in that time and have something that still is viable to build even in half a century from now.
Custom designs is one way out of this, but we'd basically be declaring the Niagra a non-starter if we went that route.
e: If we're going into ship design specifics, let's bring this to the containment thread...
The thing about the Excelsiors is that we're already building them at a pretty good clip and are going to end up with a lot of them in fifty years. I'm not talking about building them specifically to be cruisers, but to acknowledge that in a few decades we'll have so many that we might as well make them the workhorse rather than panic and look for a new cruiser type.
So the next vote we're probably going to be asked to take is for 2309 construction. I think this ought to be pretty non-controversial, but let me open it up for comment.
Basically:
2309Q1 - Start an Excelsior build in Utopia Planitia berth vacated by the Caitian ship; allow Tellarites to begin building an Excelsior for themselves in Tellar Prime berth.
2309Q2 - Start three Constitution-B builds: 1 in new Andor 1mt shipyard, 1 in UP 1mt berth after the Yukikaze finishes its refit, and 1 in new 3mt UP berth
2309Q4 - Start three Constitution-B builds; in SF berths freed up by launching Centaur-B; 1 in 40 Eridani berth. Also start Renaissance prototype in new UP 1mt berth.
Okay, two questions you'll be asking here. First, why put a Constitution-B build in a 3mt UP space? The answer is that I am assuming the Renaissance must/should be built at UP, since that's where it's design team is. Since it will occupy its berth for a full 18 quarters we don't want to start it in a 3mt berth, but that means reserving a 1mt berth for it and that means the only place to start the Constitution-B that quarter is in the 3mt berth. (I assume doing so is worthwhile because we want as many Constitution-Bs as possible ASAP.) If you do not agree that the Renaissance needs to be built at the UP shipyard, we could choose to start it at a 40 Eridani A 1mt yard in Q4 instead, and put the Constitution-B in that third UP berth.
Second question is, why aren't we starting a Constitution-B in that 40 Eridani-A berth in Q4? The answer is lack of resources. We're talking about starting an Excelsior and 7 cruisers (including the Renaissance) in one year, That is a massive amount of SR drain, manageable only because we get a 40sr discount on each of the first four Constitutions, and I assume we'll spend pp for an Excelsior's worth of resources. We don't have enough SR to start an eighth cruiser until 2310Q1, when the next year's income has come in.
I do admit that tying up all our 3mt berths this way is pretty risky. You never know when a ship will get damaged. But, eh, we can always kick a build out of its spot if necessary. We saw with the Sarek it just results in a delay of completion to the kicked ship.
So the next vote we're probably going to be asked to take is for 2309 construction. I think this ought to be pretty non-controversial, but let me open it up for comment.
Basically:
2309Q1 - Start an Excelsior build in Utopia Planitia berth vacated by the Caitian ship; allow Tellarites to begin building an Excelsior for themselves in Tellar Prime berth.
2309Q2 - Start three Constitution-B builds: 1 in new Andor 1mt shipyard, 1 in UP 1mt berth after the Yukikaze finishes its refit, and 1 in new 3mt UP berth
2309Q4 - Start three Constitution-B builds; in SF berths freed up by launching Centaur-B; 1 in 40 Eridani berth. Also start Renaissance prototype in new UP 1mt berth.
Okay, two questions you'll be asking here. First, why put a Constitution-B build in a 3mt UP space? The answer is that I am assuming the Renaissance must/should be built at UP, since that's where it's design team is. Since it will occupy its berth for a full 18 quarters we don't want to start it in a 3mt berth, but that means reserving a 1mt berth for it and that means the only place to start the Constitution-B that quarter is in the 3mt berth. (I assume doing so is worthwhile because we want as many Constitution-Bs as possible ASAP.) If you do not agree that the Renaissance needs to be built at the UP shipyard, we could choose to start it at a 40 Eridani A 1mt yard in Q4 instead, and put the Constitution-B in that third UP berth.
Second question is, why aren't we starting a Constitution-B in that 40 Eridani-A berth in Q4? The answer is lack of resources. We're talking about starting an Excelsior and 7 cruisers (including the Renaissance) in one year, That is a massive amount of SR drain, manageable only because we get a 40sr discount on each of the first four Constitutions, and I assume we'll spend pp for an Excelsior's worth of resources. We don't have enough SR to start an eighth cruiser until 2310Q1, when the next year's income has come in.
I do admit that tying up all our 3mt berths this way is pretty risky. You never know when a ship will get damaged. But, eh, we can always kick a build out of its spot if necessary. We saw with the Sarek it just results in a delay of completion to the kicked ship.
I think the question of whether we will do the resource request is also pretty interesting. I think we should present two plans when it is time, one assuming a resource request and one not and make that very clear, so there are no surprised people at the snakepit vote like last time. Whether we need one depends among other things on whether the integration of our 3 affiliates progresses in time for the EOY income and how much they offer.
If you go into the Starship Construction technology tree, there are techs under there that can drastically reduce ship construction time. Hitting that heavily is more likely to be the game mechanical means of reducing construction time rather than a refit project.
I just had a thought, could we do a refit like the Connie-B to the Excelsior once we replace it in the Explorer Corps, IE streamline it so it can go into a cruiser role easier?
We definitely can, since a tech to do this exists for free in the combined arms doctrine. Even without that, a way to do that at cost probably will appear once we get size 8 cruisers. We know those are possible because the Niagara is a size 10 cruiser.
It's far less clear that we should. One of the benefits of the Lone Ranger Doctrine is that we could build Ambassador as our main Explorer, build Excelsior as if they were our main cruiser but with the doctrine bonuses as Explorers, and build Renaissance as if they were our main Escort but with the doctrine bonuses of Cruisers.
While that certainly looks to be the case right now, given that it competes with Ambassadors for Berth space and probably isn't better than the Excelsiors we'll be building at the time, I wouldn't count on that not changing. We've seen ships get buffs before as the sheet changes, and we know that the sheet can change to better reflect what it is supposed to do. It is entirely possible this will happen again.
It could be, but we don't actually have to decide on 2310 construction until Q1 2310 so it's not going to be a part of the next vote. That's why I didn't bother to bring it up. When 2310 rolls around we can look at where we actually are crew and resources wise and decide what to do then. Possibly the thread may decide that two Excelsiors is too much resources strain and we'd rather only start one.
I think the question of whether we will do the resource request is also pretty interesting. I think we should present two plans when it is time, one assuming a resource request and one not and make that very clear, so there are no surprised people at the snakepit vote like last time. Whether we need one depends among other things on whether the integration of our 3 affiliates progresses in time for the EOY income and how much they offer.
Sure. Though part of the reason I'm laying this out now is that I'm traveling next week and may not be my usual "always online" self, so it's possible I may not be able to present this stuff. I figured out get it out there now. I'm pretty sure that even if all three affiliates come in, we'll still have to build one or two fewer cruisers if we don't ask for an Excelsior's worth of resources. 150 sr is a lot to make up.
This is the "we don't want to spend political will on an Excelsior's worth of resources" plan:
No political will spent.
2309Q1 - Start an Excelsior build in Utopia Planitia berth vacated by the Caitian ship; allow Tellarites to begin building an Excelsior for themselves in Tellar Prime berth.
2309Q2 - Start two Constitution-B builds: 1 in new Andor 1mt shipyard, 1 in UP 1mt berth after the Yukikaze finishes its refit.
2309Q4 - Start two Constitution-B builds in SF berths freed up by launching Centaur-B. Also start Renaissance prototype in new UP 1mt berth.
So no expenditure of political will = 2 fewer Constitution-Bs. Which ought to make sense, after all the pp gets us 150 sr, and a Constitution costs 80 sr to build.
So no expenditure of political will = 2 fewer Constitution-Bs. Which ought to make sense, after all the pp gets us 150 sr, and a Constitution costs 80 sr to build.
I just saw you seem to be assuming normal cost for the prototype. Wasn't resource cost also supposed to be 50% higher? And does it still work out that way if it is?
I just saw you seem to be assuming normal cost for the prototype. Wasn't resource cost also supposed to be 50% higher? And does it still work out that way if it is?
The problem with reclassifying Excelsiors is that we currently (and with mid term building plans) have too few home fleet Explorers even for Combined Fleet Doctrine, let alone Lone Ranger Doctrine. If we reclassify all of our existing Explorers we will never see a reasonable proportion of Explorers. There is no real advantage for reclassification either assuming we keep up Explorer tech which we need to anyway.
This is the "we don't want to spend political will on an Excelsior's worth of resources" plan:
No political will spent.
2309Q1 - Start an Excelsior build in Utopia Planitia berth vacated by the Caitian ship; allow Tellarites to begin building an Excelsior for themselves in Tellar Prime berth.
2309Q2 - Start two Constitution-B builds: 1 in new Andor 1mt shipyard, 1 in UP 1mt berth after the Yukikaze finishes its refit.
2309Q4 - Start two Constitution-B builds in SF berths freed up by launching Centaur-B. Also start Renaissance prototype in new UP 1mt berth.
So no expenditure of political will = 2 fewer Constitution-Bs. Which ought to make sense, after all the pp gets us 150 sr, and a Constitution costs 80 sr to build.
Just to double check the BR/SR, 1 Excelsior plus either 4 or 6 Constitution-Bs. Total price:
BR: 230 (Excelsior) + 4*100 = 630, or that plus 2*100, totalling 830.
SR: 150 (Excelsior) + 4* 80 = 470, or that plus 2*80, totalling 630.
We currently have 515 br (front page, unless dated), with a revenue of 425br, totalling 940 br - no problem.
For SR, we currently have 140 sr (ditto), with a revenue of 290sr, totalling 430 - not enough for four, let alone six. However, with the stated Excelsior pp request, that makes 580 - four becomes workable, but not six. Just to note, seven would be 710 sr.
Of course, there is the possibility of earning some over the next few Captain's Logs.
Edit: Whoops, mixed up a number. One sec... ok, fixed.
We definitely can, since a tech to do this exists for free in the combined arms doctrine. Even without that, a way to do that at cost probably will appear once we get size 8 cruisers. We know those are possible because the Niagara is a size 10 cruiser.
It's far less clear that we should. One of the benefits of the Lone Ranger Doctrine is that we could build Ambassador as our main Explorer, build Excelsior as if they were our main cruiser but with the doctrine bonuses as Explorers, and build Renaissance as if they were our main Escort but with the doctrine bonuses of Cruisers.
Just to double check the BR/SR, 1 Excelsior plus either 4 or 6 Constitution-Bs. Total price:
BR: 230 (Excelsior) + 4*100 = 630, or that plus 2*100, totalling 830.
SR: 150 (Excelsior) + 4* 80 = 470, or that plus 2*80, totalling 630.
We currently have 515 br (front page, unless dated), with a revenue of 425br, totalling 940 br - no problem.
For SR, we currently have 290 sr (ditto), with a revenue of 290sr, totalling 580 - okay for four, not for six. However, with the stated Excelsior pp request, that makes 730 - no problem for six either. For that matter, seven would be 710, also affordable with the pp request.
We have a discount of 40 sr on the first 4 Constellation-Bs from an omake, and you forgot to account for the Renaissance prototype. Our current income is 450br 305sr, and our current sr stockpile should be 150.
I just saw you seem to be assuming normal cost for the prototype. Wasn't resource cost also supposed to be 50% higher? And does it still work out that way if it is?
So the longer you work on a design, the more efficient and productive a design you get. At a minimum, if you use no bonuses, you can request the research project in Q2, assign a team in Q3, and commence the prototype build in Q1.
Just to double check the BR/SR, 1 Excelsior plus either 4 or 6 Constitution-Bs. Total price:
BR: 230 (Excelsior) + 4*100 = 630, or that plus 2*100, totalling 830.
SR: 150 (Excelsior) + 4* 80 = 470, or that plus 2*80, totalling 630.
You're forgetting two things:
1. We get a 40 sr discount on the first four Constitutions as a omake bonus.
2. If we start the Renaissance prototype we have to pay for that.
So it would be 150 (Excelsior) + 4*40 (first 4 Constitution-B) + 2*80 (next two Consitution-B) + 120 (Renaissance prototype at 1.5 * normal 80 sr cost).
No, honestly I had missed that. Will plug it in and see what happens.
I note that also assumes that we can't start the build until the following year, rather than allowing us to start it in Q4.
You're forgetting two things:
1. We get a 40 sr discount on the first four Constitutions as a omake bonus.
2. If we start the Renaissance prototype we have to pay for that.
So it would be 150 (Excelsior) + 4*40 (first 4 Constitution-B) + 2*80 (next two Consitution-B) + 120 (Renaissance prototype at 1.5 * normal 80 sr cost).
Obviously we can't set a build order in Q1 for prototypes we haven't even requested, let alone started designing yet. That doesn't mean we can't do so for prototypes that have significant design work done, a known cost and a known due date for the design.
So this is with corrected Prototype costs of +50%.
Really cutting it close on SR, but I think we can make it. Note that this assumes we get at least 10sr from events over the course of the year, probably a reasonable assumption. And if we came up short, in Q4 then hey, just cancel build plans for one of the Constitution-Bs.
BR: 230 (Excelsior) + 4*100 + 1.5 * 100 = 780, or that plus 2*100, totalling 930.
SR: 150 (Excelsior) + 4* 40 + 1.5 * 80 = 470, or that plus 2*80, totalling 630.
We currently have 515 br (front page, unless dated), with a revenue of 450br, totalling 965 br - no problem.
For SR, we currently have 150 sr (from @Nix ), with a revenue of 305sr, totalling 455 - so 15 shy. Possible to collect, certainly. With the stated Excelsior pp request, that makes 605 - short of maxing six by 25. As noted before, seven would be 710 sr.