Does it? Member races can still colonize new planets.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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Very interesting. Is that another reason that the integration of the Apiata is on delay, because we can't trust them not to press that button the first time a Cardassian cruiser harasses one of their ships?
Is there a timeline on how much time the Federation Council will need with them, but the way? I realize Starfleet probably isn't getting a schedule, but is there a sense whether this is more "wait three turns" or "wait three years"? And is the delay mostly because of their unique biology, or might a lot of the other species on the list get the "needs more time" message when reaching 300?
Or will all of this be answered in the Snakepit post? It would be cool if they at least made a comment on our increasing closeness with the Apiata, among everything else going on.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We know that the Bajoran caste system was enough to halt their move to membership. An actual biological caste system has no potential for 'promotion' that comes with some aristocracies either, so that's not a method of patching that's open here.
I expect no simple answers to the situation with the Apiata.
aledeth
The Flesh is Weak
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X][ADVICE] Our biggest problem is a lack of information, and Starfleet is prepared to thoroughly investigate this incident in the field [with our explorer corps]. We recommend that the diplomacy corps convince the Caitians to hold off while we concentrate on gathering intelligence about the Dawiar, who they'll listen to, and the details of the inciting incident. Furthermore, we consider it likely that this is a Cardassian proxy war in danger of escalating, and Starfleet is making preparations for this eventuality and limiting Cardassian influence where possible.
[X][FLEET] Reinforce Amarkia and Andor
[X][FLEET] Reinforce Amarkia and Andor
Would there be any advantage to turning inwards for a short time and patching the cracks/gaps in the political structure? After all, there are political issues in the Federation right now, outside of 'proxy war goes full war'.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Not our problem.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't have time to read all the various advice choices so I'm just going to post "Smother the War" as its own choice right now, since I already had that drafted. I'll reread (and maybe abandon my own choice) in a few hours when I have time.
[X][ADVICE] Smother the War
Smother the War
"Madam president, a war is like a fire, it needs fuel and oxidizer to burn. Our two priorities are to find and remove the root cause that fuels the war, and to limit the 'oxygen' that might cause it to flare beyond control before we can get to the fuel.
"For the first purpose, we need stable contact with the Dawiar. I'm sure the diplomatic corps is reviewing everything we have on their culture and customs; so are our some of our best xenopsychologists. We'll keep on that. We'll need to find a channel to communicate with the Dawiar, and we'll need to make enquiries with the Caitians as well. Somehow we need to get to the bottom of this, understand why the Dawiar attack our ships, and convince them to stop.
"Frankly, this is a relatively straightforward task in diplomacy- not easy, but straightforward, and largely outside Starfleet's remit Unless you want to send the ambassador with an Excelsior- or two or three- in order to make a point. Which isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it's up to you.
"The second issue, and the trickier one, is the oxidizer. The more intense the conflict between the Caitians and the Dawiar gets, the more oxygen gets pumped into the flames, and the harder they are to fight. Our recommendation is to work with the Caitians and encourage them to keep up a stance of "wait and see," operating defensively without pushing into Dawiar space. That gives the Dawiar time to reconsider their position.
"The catch is that if the Dawiar are a species with the same cultural disposition as, say, Klingons, giving them time to continue upgrading weapons and bringing in Cardassian aid would be... counterproductive. If that is deemed to be a problem- and we think it is- we have a further recommendation.
"We further suggest that the Federation Council seriously consider declaring, if Caitian cooperation can be secured, an arms embargo on the entire region. The Caitians can agree to stop importing arms without endangering their safety, and we can make sure they actually comply. Conversely, stopping the Dawiar from importing foreign weapons would make any aggressive action on their part untenable. It might also force the Cardassians to reveal their hand in all this, and give us an opportunity to bring their actions out into the open and put a stop to them.
"This step does have some risks, but we think it necessary to reassure our allies that Starfleet's response to provocation is peaceable, but not passive. To minimize the degree of provocation, we suggest that actual stop-and-search operations be carried out by the Caitians, informed and supported by our ships' sensor suites."
[X][ADVICE] Smother the War
Smother the War
"Madam president, a war is like a fire, it needs fuel and oxidizer to burn. Our two priorities are to find and remove the root cause that fuels the war, and to limit the 'oxygen' that might cause it to flare beyond control before we can get to the fuel.
"For the first purpose, we need stable contact with the Dawiar. I'm sure the diplomatic corps is reviewing everything we have on their culture and customs; so are our some of our best xenopsychologists. We'll keep on that. We'll need to find a channel to communicate with the Dawiar, and we'll need to make enquiries with the Caitians as well. Somehow we need to get to the bottom of this, understand why the Dawiar attack our ships, and convince them to stop.
"Frankly, this is a relatively straightforward task in diplomacy- not easy, but straightforward, and largely outside Starfleet's remit Unless you want to send the ambassador with an Excelsior- or two or three- in order to make a point. Which isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it's up to you.
"The second issue, and the trickier one, is the oxidizer. The more intense the conflict between the Caitians and the Dawiar gets, the more oxygen gets pumped into the flames, and the harder they are to fight. Our recommendation is to work with the Caitians and encourage them to keep up a stance of "wait and see," operating defensively without pushing into Dawiar space. That gives the Dawiar time to reconsider their position.
"The catch is that if the Dawiar are a species with the same cultural disposition as, say, Klingons, giving them time to continue upgrading weapons and bringing in Cardassian aid would be... counterproductive. If that is deemed to be a problem- and we think it is- we have a further recommendation.
"We further suggest that the Federation Council seriously consider declaring, if Caitian cooperation can be secured, an arms embargo on the entire region. The Caitians can agree to stop importing arms without endangering their safety, and we can make sure they actually comply. Conversely, stopping the Dawiar from importing foreign weapons would make any aggressive action on their part untenable. It might also force the Cardassians to reveal their hand in all this, and give us an opportunity to bring their actions out into the open and put a stop to them.
"This step does have some risks, but we think it necessary to reassure our allies that Starfleet's response to provocation is peaceable, but not passive. To minimize the degree of provocation, we suggest that actual stop-and-search operations be carried out by the Caitians, informed and supported by our ships' sensor suites."
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Also, the President is of the expansionist faction.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Since there's a lull in the presidential advice vote discussion, I'm taking the opportunity to go back to some previous discussion on snakepit options.
There are still the two mechanics that can be, well, abused is probably too strong of a word, but overall just really gamey: berth costs and diplomatic pushes.
Normally, these aren't huge issues, since there's limited PP and there's usually new interesting options to distract our PP spending, but surely there will be a couple relatively "boring" snakepit years, where the mechanics behind these can be really exploited.
Berth costs:
Buying multiple berths at once at a shipyard for the same pp cost is supposedly much better than buying berths at the shipyard one at a time over years due to ever increasing pp cost. For ex, it's supposedly cheaper to get 3 1mt berths at 40EA in 2308 [10*3 pp], then to get 1mt berth at 40EA in each of 2308,2309,2310 [10+15+20 pp?)].
It would help if @OneirosTheWriter could clarify whether the increasing berth costs is due to the number of existing berths or the time (year) it was bought (and thus the context around that year). Or alternatively, explicitly price berths at shipyard-specific thresholds, so that e.g. first 3 berths are 10pp, second 3 berths is 15pp, etc. for the 40EA shipyard. UP shipyard would have larger thresholds to reflect its greater expandibility.
Diplomatic pushes:
The number of diplomacy pushes that can be done in a year is still uncapped. I think we had one year where we had 6 pushes. And in a related note, how silly it seems that Starfleet "bought" pushes are so much more effective than the diplomacy corps' normal efforts (the annual roles), that it makes you question why the lazy diplomacy corps require pushing by Starfleet to do their best damn job.
I'd prefer a system where there are limited number of diplomatic pushes that the diplomatic corps can afford to do in a year (maybe determined by research) to randomly chosen nations, including major powers even if less impactful, unless Starfleet spends pp to explicitly allocate one of those pushes with a small bonus. That would both place an implicit cap on number of diplomatic pushes that can be done, and make the diplomatic corps look less incompetent.
There are still the two mechanics that can be, well, abused is probably too strong of a word, but overall just really gamey: berth costs and diplomatic pushes.
Normally, these aren't huge issues, since there's limited PP and there's usually new interesting options to distract our PP spending, but surely there will be a couple relatively "boring" snakepit years, where the mechanics behind these can be really exploited.
Berth costs:
Buying multiple berths at once at a shipyard for the same pp cost is supposedly much better than buying berths at the shipyard one at a time over years due to ever increasing pp cost. For ex, it's supposedly cheaper to get 3 1mt berths at 40EA in 2308 [10*3 pp], then to get 1mt berth at 40EA in each of 2308,2309,2310 [10+15+20 pp?)].
It would help if @OneirosTheWriter could clarify whether the increasing berth costs is due to the number of existing berths or the time (year) it was bought (and thus the context around that year). Or alternatively, explicitly price berths at shipyard-specific thresholds, so that e.g. first 3 berths are 10pp, second 3 berths is 15pp, etc. for the 40EA shipyard. UP shipyard would have larger thresholds to reflect its greater expandibility.
Diplomatic pushes:
The number of diplomacy pushes that can be done in a year is still uncapped. I think we had one year where we had 6 pushes. And in a related note, how silly it seems that Starfleet "bought" pushes are so much more effective than the diplomacy corps' normal efforts (the annual roles), that it makes you question why the lazy diplomacy corps require pushing by Starfleet to do their best damn job.
I'd prefer a system where there are limited number of diplomatic pushes that the diplomatic corps can afford to do in a year (maybe determined by research) to randomly chosen nations, including major powers even if less impactful, unless Starfleet spends pp to explicitly allocate one of those pushes with a small bonus. That would both place an implicit cap on number of diplomatic pushes that can be done, and make the diplomatic corps look less incompetent.
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- Location
- madison
[X][ADVICE] Advice
I like the idea of a third party negotiator, but the idea of blockading them seems too provocative to me. Frankly, I think showing up for a second round of negotiations asap is our best bet. I don't think they want war, so if we can figure out why the attacked the Polaris we can probably wrap this whole thing up.
I like the idea of a third party negotiator, but the idea of blockading them seems too provocative to me. Frankly, I think showing up for a second round of negotiations asap is our best bet. I don't think they want war, so if we can figure out why the attacked the Polaris we can probably wrap this whole thing up.
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
Oneirous all ready imposed a 4 push max limit after that snakepit with 6 pushes.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
I know he talked about doing that, but I don't think it was ever actualized. 2307.Q2 snakepit didn't indicate any limit.
aledeth
The Flesh is Weak
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Lets not force him to codify it. We know we aren't supposed to push more than 4 times, do we need to have a rule explicitly stating that for us to behave?
- Location
- Austin, TX
[X][ADVICE] Advice
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Nice catch.
Of course, it WOULD have the desired effect of minimizing the risk of confrontation.
I think in character, recommending to the president that we work with the Caitians, investigate the issue, and very seriously consider a blockade is just about right.
There are lots of more pacifist voices in the Federation. Our job is to provide the quasi-military angle, and part of that is being able to inform the president of just what we can and cannot do, and what we think might be a good idea.
Think about Worf on TNG. He's constantly saying "sir, I think these guys are a threat, let's raise our shields." And like 90% of the time they don't follow his advice... but somebody's got to say it. When you're dealing with armed starships and potentially hostile aliens, someone has to at least keep track of what our military options ARE. Even if we ultimately choose to defer exercising those options.
That's our job as head of Starfleet- if the entire Federation is modeled as the bridge of the Enterprise-D, our role is somewhere between that of Worf and Riker. And so the strategic equivalent of "I recommend we go to yellow alert and raise shields..." That's part of what the president expects us to tell her.
We're not proposing anything that is obviously wrong the way launching a huge invasion fleet to crush the Dawiar would be. We're proposing something that is maybe a firmer line than the Federation wants to take right now, but that could very easily be what the Federation wants to do a month from now, depending on how the situation evolves. We're providing her with a realistic palette of short term options.
Note that I phrased my suggestion as "we recommend that the Council seriously consider." That's us saying "yo, we're not saying this IS a good idea, but we think you should probably give it some thought, because it's just about the least aggressive action that constitutes a 'firm' response to the crisis."
EDIT:
I still haven't had time to read through all the options and consider them on their merits. That ironically takes me a lot longer than typing a 500-word post does.
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- Location
- Central Standard Time
If the council orders us to set up a blockade, we can't get militarization points for it!
One potential omake reward that hasn't been taken is the possibility of lowering the cost of a threat level increase/militarization decrease.
Right now, I fall into the "Yellow Alert" camp, and that seems to be the new majority/ plurality
Tally? C# isn't exactly *nix friendly.
One potential omake reward that hasn't been taken is the possibility of lowering the cost of a threat level increase/militarization decrease.
Right now, I fall into the "Yellow Alert" camp, and that seems to be the new majority/ plurality
Tally? C# isn't exactly *nix friendly.
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lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Why not? If a new player steps in with a vote plan that somehow violates the rules, do we really want to have to find and cite this obscure rule? Having hidden game mechanics is fine for the most part; having game mechanics as tribal rules that only experienced players know is not.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
EDIT:
Had more time than I thought.
Both "Our priorities right now should be to determine the cause of Dawiar aggression, encourage the Caitians to give us time to find a diplomatic solution, and attempt to limit further Cardassian influence where possible." and "The Cardassians are attempting to control our politics and stall Caitian admittance to the Federation by starting a proxy war... if [we can't resolve this], we should back the Caitians quickly and overwhelmingly... letting things drag on will let the Cardassians further interfere and forestall Caitian membership." are literally very true and are probably accurate depictions of the strategic situation.
However, my priorities are a bit mixed and oddly balanced.
On the one hand, it's the admiral's job to inform the president of the military options. Advice that doesn't include that is by definition unsatisfactory.
On the other hand, there is clearly a lot going on here aside from the pure military situation, and the admiral is a competent strategic thinker with a good grasp of nuance, so the admiral's words should reflect that.
And so, while this may not be the perfect choice in my eyes, it's pretty good and I'm throwing my vote behind it:
[X][ADVICE] Advice
(AKuz's idea. If future tallies don't show me voting for her idea, I need to fix this)
So settling that issue is someone else's job, and if they want to call for our assistance, they are very much free to do so at any time. Indeed, they are doing so; our ships are regularly going around responding to problems related to internal tension and separatism.
Had more time than I thought.
Both "Our priorities right now should be to determine the cause of Dawiar aggression, encourage the Caitians to give us time to find a diplomatic solution, and attempt to limit further Cardassian influence where possible." and "The Cardassians are attempting to control our politics and stall Caitian admittance to the Federation by starting a proxy war... if [we can't resolve this], we should back the Caitians quickly and overwhelmingly... letting things drag on will let the Cardassians further interfere and forestall Caitian membership." are literally very true and are probably accurate depictions of the strategic situation.
However, my priorities are a bit mixed and oddly balanced.
On the one hand, it's the admiral's job to inform the president of the military options. Advice that doesn't include that is by definition unsatisfactory.
On the other hand, there is clearly a lot going on here aside from the pure military situation, and the admiral is a competent strategic thinker with a good grasp of nuance, so the admiral's words should reflect that.
And so, while this may not be the perfect choice in my eyes, it's pretty good and I'm throwing my vote behind it:
[X][ADVICE] Advice
(AKuz's idea. If future tallies don't show me voting for her idea, I need to fix this)
Looking back at this, not only would this be the Starfleet doing a complete 180, but it is entirely outside Starfleet's remit as an organization. Our entire job is to look outwards, that is literally why Starfleet even exists- it's the exploratory and miiltary arm of the Federation government.
So settling that issue is someone else's job, and if they want to call for our assistance, they are very much free to do so at any time. Indeed, they are doing so; our ships are regularly going around responding to problems related to internal tension and separatism.
I suggest we leave that question up to @OneirosTheWriter. If he wants to post the rule in the threads on the first page he can. If he doesn't, none of us could make him do so, even if we were inclined to, which most of us aren't.
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ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
And the best way to be able to assist with internal diplomacy is to upgrade our sector fleets to higher presence ships like Excelsiors and Renaissances (Especially after Way of the Anchor bonuses to response).
[X][ADVICE] Take risks.
Whether it's to investigate Dawiar motives, run down Cardassian interference, or resume diplomatic talks even when facing down a dozen loaded torpedo tubes, as the face and arm of the Federation in space Starfleet exists to bear those risks. The Polaris and many other ships have been lost in the course of our duties, but they remain our duties nonetheless. And I say that to you not just as Starfleet's Admiral, but as a representative of every person who wears this uniform.
If our ships aren't out there nosing around and getting involved in everyone's business, then we have no ability to affect what happens. Starfleet's position? We should find out what happened and why, prevent it from happening again, and put our best forward to resume talks even if we aren't sure.
(I feel that's the most Starfleet-like position I can get out of a gut-feel check, and yeah, the advice isn't precise, but I wrote it on gut-feel rather than anything else. AKuz says more or less the same thing in more words, but there's something about brevity neither of us really have.)
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