To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
If you're still complaining about the previous vote, the Federation was already compromised before that vote, by the fact that the Caitians are affiliates.
I like it.
Here's one thing that's missing from all this recent conversation: The poor capabilities of the Constellation. Admittedly, it is a bit tangential, but if we point out that the situation would be less of a tragedy if all Federation vessels survived the failed diplomatic encounter, maybe we could reduce the Constellation refit cost a bit more.
Which also brings up another point: War with the Cardassians is going to be a hot topic in the actual snakepit, especially with what happened with the Enterprise. We need to make our position clear on this.
Namely, that Starfleet currently is not ready for a large scale war, and thus it is inadvisable to directly interdict any Cardassian ships en route to Dawiar, which could spark such a war. This potentially limits the usefulness of an arms embargo, and any such abandoned interdiction may actually backfire in terms of public perception, especially in the eyes of our affiliates.
edit: Also, while Starfleet is capable of sending ships into the area (whether for interdiction patrols or the Excelsior show of force option), we currently cannot sustain such an action for very long, since it will stretch our defenses even thinner, and could interrupt our FYMs.
I think the problem is that we're afraid that if we don't set up these contingencies and phases, we may not be able to reactively update our position until the next snakepit.
I'm not particularly gung-ho about blockading or arms embargoes, but I am worried about how our public action (or inaction) will be perceived by others. Furthermore, I like the aspect of Simon_Jester's plan that involves close coordination with the Caitians to try containing hostilities while we proceed with investigation.
I do like the SWB's revised plan, but I still feel it's missing some stuff.
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I don't think there's a single person who thinks they aren't involved.
But knowing something and being able to hold up proof we caught them red-handed is the difference between "can the Federation really protect us?" and "guess those ships aren't for show".
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Thing is, if we don't institute a blockade, we can't catch them, and our ships are totally for show.
Furthermore, while we're sitting around doing literally nothing concrete to interfere with the Cardassian operations in Dawiar space, the Cardassians can build up a stronger position, both by further arming the Dawiar, and by basing their own ships and troops in that area. And the galaxy will be watching them do this, in a very obvious way, after blowing up one of our ships, without our doing anything specific to stop them or even slow them down.
At some future time, we are either going to suffer severe diplomatic consequences from affiliates deciding that we don't actually care about protecting them even when we lost people too, or we're going to have some idiot try to force our hand again, figuring that no matter how much of our blood ends up on their fists, we will not so much as mildly inconvenience them in return.
This is why I keep harping on the point that the Federation stands for not being bullied. Right now, we are in effect letting the Dawiar bully us- we are letting fear of their unjustified anger keep us from acting to stop them from waging war on one of our friends.
EDIT:
Basically, it's the difference between being pacifist and being passivist. Passivity is not going to earn us any points. And the assumption that we can afford to be passive because the Dawiar won't do anything rash is quite simply not justified by our past experiences with them.
Furthermore, while we're sitting around doing literally nothing concrete to interfere with the Cardassian operations in Dawiar space, the Cardassians can build up a stronger position, both by further arming the Dawiar, and by basing their own ships and troops in that area. And the galaxy will be watching them do this, in a very obvious way, after blowing up one of our ships, without our doing anything specific to stop them or even slow them down.
At some future time, we are either going to suffer severe diplomatic consequences from affiliates deciding that we don't actually care about protecting them even when we lost people too, or we're going to have some idiot try to force our hand again, figuring that no matter how much of our blood ends up on their fists, we will not so much as mildly inconvenience them in return.
This is why I keep harping on the point that the Federation stands for not being bullied. Right now, we are in effect letting the Dawiar bully us- we are letting fear of their unjustified anger keep us from acting to stop them from waging war on one of our friends.
EDIT:
Basically, it's the difference between being pacifist and being passivist. Passivity is not going to earn us any points. And the assumption that we can afford to be passive because the Dawiar won't do anything rash is quite simply not justified by our past experiences with them.
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Skirmishing with the Cardassians is the status quo. We don't have to announce a blockade to invasively scan every ship we suspect of having a Cardassian on board, or to shadow Cardassian ships until we provoke them into shooting or force them off course. It isn't even a very large modification of the standing RoE. Even moreso if they're shipping openly. The blockade makes the entire thing politically messy, and not merely in positive ways. Keep in mind the Caitians have told us they aren't expecting our intervention, even if it would be welcome. Our actions thusfar have been in alignment with what our members and most of our affiliates expect.
Our actions should be to check Cardassian action and undermine it. Assurance against another major power is what our affiliates are expecting from us. Turning it into an official blockade makes it a political spectacle that will cost us heavily and restrict our potential actions by tying up resources. It decreases our flexibility in response to Cardassian action. It also polarizes the relationship with the Dawiar, which I may remind you, is not an official state of war even if you believe it to be a de-facto one. In fact, there is nothing other than potential risk (or perception if we use a force large enough to be riskless) stopping us from showing up to the Dawiar tomorrow and asking for a resumption of negotiations. That would take example from T'Lorel in our first contact, who was able to resume peaceful discourse after significant hostilities.
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[X][FLEET] Reinforce Amarkia and Andor
[X][ADVICE] Information is Our Weapon
[X][ADVICE] Information is Our Weapon
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I support the idea of sending a very large force to ask for resumption of negotiations, in fact I suggested it many pages ago and have mentioned it as an option a number of times since.
But this idea does not seem to be any more palatable than an arms embargo. As far as I can determine, much of the voter base is voting to have Admiral Katsuragi recommend to the president "we're planning to keep the Federation fleet at home and hope this whole thing blows over on its own while the Diplomatic Corps figures out how to send a messenger the Dawiar won't shoot at."
EDIT: Anyway, starting in around half an hour or so I'm likely to be gone for two or three more hours. I don't know what the situation will look like when I get back. From my point of view this is looking like a growing bandwagon in favor of committing to "no Starfleet action, the ships are for show" between now and next year's snakepit.
But this idea does not seem to be any more palatable than an arms embargo. As far as I can determine, much of the voter base is voting to have Admiral Katsuragi recommend to the president "we're planning to keep the Federation fleet at home and hope this whole thing blows over on its own while the Diplomatic Corps figures out how to send a messenger the Dawiar won't shoot at."
EDIT: Anyway, starting in around half an hour or so I'm likely to be gone for two or three more hours. I don't know what the situation will look like when I get back. From my point of view this is looking like a growing bandwagon in favor of committing to "no Starfleet action, the ships are for show" between now and next year's snakepit.
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As noted, again, the Federation was not going to formally blockade anything under Akuz's plan. That would fall to the Caitians. We'd assist them by passing on information.
I'm kind-of annoyed people keep pushing this narrative the plan was to 'blockade' with Federation assets.
I am looking forward to about 16 turns from now, when Fleet Deployment votes might actually be interesting. Right now we're so relatively tight compared to our garrison requirements that it's mostly a matter of shifting a few Mirandas here or there. I thought someone might propose a plan to get the Endurance down to Andor, but that's about the most exciting alternative on offer. (For the record; I didn't do that because I don't think it's good to leave our coreward flank without even a single Excelsior covering it.)
- Location
- Patriarchova
I was going to look through the voting options for the plan most similar to what I want, but this argument has become so stupid that I don't feel like digging through it, so I'll just wait for Oneiros.
There are a lot of problems with that, but the most relevant one I see involves putting the Caitians in the way of the Cardassians to actually enforce a blockade.
Which is not actually true, so you may want to re-determine a few times.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
It's pretty close to that, unless we get a much more active series of "fact-finding missions" than I expect.
EDIT: Granted, some of our captains (such as Thuir, the patron saint of common sense, or of course Nash) may buck the trend of passivity enough that something concrete happens and the Cardassians actually get their wrists slapped.
EDIT: Granted, some of our captains (such as Thuir, the patron saint of common sense, or of course Nash) may buck the trend of passivity enough that something concrete happens and the Cardassians actually get their wrists slapped.
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Fact-finding mission to Dawiar itself? It's dressed in euphemism, but it's just a Council-acceptable way of saying that if we can pull 3+ ships off 5YMs, we can show up over their homeworld and tell them to explain things.
How else would you consider a suggestion to send the EC on a "fact-finding mission" to Dawiar.
How else would you consider a suggestion to send the EC on a "fact-finding mission" to Dawiar.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Honestly, I look at the wording and see it as a throwaway suggestion the Federation president is expected to shrug off because it would be 'too provocative.' Just like the reception I got when I suggested it.
To be precise, I suggested it around four o'clock yesterday afternoon, and the first response I got, from Briefvoice, was:
EDIT:
"Sending four battlecruisers into the home system of a non-ally, uninvited, is an inherently hostile act. I don't think that would be a very good idea. If you want to send a diplomat, send a diplomat. If you want to sent a war fleet, send a war fleet. Don't send a war fleet with a diplomat on board and pretend you're talking peace."
I may be wrong, but I assumed that he still believes that.
To be precise, I suggested it around four o'clock yesterday afternoon, and the first response I got, from Briefvoice, was:
EDIT:
"Sending four battlecruisers into the home system of a non-ally, uninvited, is an inherently hostile act. I don't think that would be a very good idea. If you want to send a diplomat, send a diplomat. If you want to sent a war fleet, send a war fleet. Don't send a war fleet with a diplomat on board and pretend you're talking peace."
I may be wrong, but I assumed that he still believes that.
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- Location
- Canada
[X][FLEET] Reinforce Amarkia and Andor
[X][ADVICE] Information is Our Weapon
[X][ADVICE] Information is Our Weapon
Well, he can correct it if he wants, but I'll be voting differently if he does.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
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- She/Her
I am way behind in the thread, and on a phone and on a break at work, (so a tally changing the words of my plan is dicey at best) but can we just get @Simon_Jester to write out his clarifications and pretend that is the Canon companion reader to my plan? Because I've completely agreed with everything they've brought up so far and any uncertainty over it in my plan was brought about by fatigue and wedging entire chunks of someone else's Suggestion in verbatim (which they them proceeded to quibble with not realising they were arguing with themselves If I read that vorrectly)
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Okay, I think I know what's bothering me, other than my indecision about arms embargoes: We're not adequately addressing the President's worries that "if the Cardassians intervene then this whole war may go hot". Yes, Starfleet's actions may trigger further Cardassian intervention, but the broader question is: what do we do if the Cardassians do escalate the war regardless of what Starfleet does with this Caitian-Dawiar situation?
"What does Starfleet suggest as a course of action" is a multi-faceted question that should require a multi-faceted answer.
"What does Starfleet suggest as a course of action" is a multi-faceted question that should require a multi-faceted answer.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
In accordance with @AKuz's request, I will repost my interpretation of her plan:
_________________________________________________________________
Plan Smother the War
(Otherwise known as "Inspect, Mediate, and Enlighten: Electroplasma Bugaloo")
Phase 0: Approach the Caitians and coordinate with them on a policy intended to 'smother' the war and permit a peaceful resolution of the conflict. This will require the Caitians to restrain themselves from raiding Dawiar installations, and refrain from purchasing foreign weapons, not that they really need to do the latter.
Instead, we will adopt a policy of blockade and investigation into the root causes of both the overall war and the Polaris incident. As a gesture of good faith, we are asking the Caitians to restrain themselves as outlined above.
Phase 1A: Starfleet (and the Caitians) contain the situation by setting up inspection patrols around the area and officially declaring that we will allow no outside military intervention until the situation is resolved peacefully, including searching for military equipment. Specifically, the Caitians are at war and can put up a blockade. We could use our ships to scan for ships entering the region, not do anything about it ourselves, but tell the Caitians. Then Caitian ships could enforce the blockade.
Perhaps ask for Betazoids to help out keeping the peace and helping us detect ships smuggling in weapons or hidden Cardassians (Presumably if a Cardassian cruiser strolls up we let them through to prevent triggering a war.)
Obviously the blockade will take place a comfortable distance from any specific Dawiar world, installation, or outpost.
Phase 1B: (AT THE SAME TIME) Attempt to figure out exactly how this happened. Perhaps someone triggered a Dawiar taboo or misread a custom. Perhaps some trick or misunderstanding caused the Dawiar to think they had to attack the Federation (and the Caitians) first.
Invite in a relatively neutral power known to the Dawiar to act as mediators and investigators. Attempt, with the Dawiar's consent, to begin mediation on a neutral world with the neutral power acting as arbitrators. (the Seyeks seem like a good option, as do the Risans). Send Enterprise along with our ambassadors, to let them know that we mean business.
Phase 2: (IN CASE OF EMERGENCY) If the Dawiar continue to refuse to co-operate and reject mediation or break off talks... Send Enterprise directly to the Dawiar home system to affirm our commitment to an equitable sharing of space and resources, and to ask, as directly as possible, that the Dawiar state their intentions toward us, and explain their actions. We recommend that this be done with one or more other explorers in trailing support at a distance, to warp in if Enterprise is attacked.
Under no circumstances is Enterprise to seek battle, however. If the explorers are attacked, their instructions are to withdraw from the system, causing as little harm to the Dawiar forces as is compatible with preserving the safety of their own commands.
The dispatch of multiple explorers is intended to shock the Dawiar into negotiation, or at least into explaining their motives in a clear and unambiguous fashion. It may reasonably be rejected without prejudice to Phases 0 and 1 of the plan.
If you like this plan, please vote for AKuz's plan "Inspect, Mediate, and Enlighten," which is basically this plan, only with some clarifications and minor modifications.
_________________________________________________________________
Plan Smother the War
(Otherwise known as "Inspect, Mediate, and Enlighten: Electroplasma Bugaloo")
Phase 0: Approach the Caitians and coordinate with them on a policy intended to 'smother' the war and permit a peaceful resolution of the conflict. This will require the Caitians to restrain themselves from raiding Dawiar installations, and refrain from purchasing foreign weapons, not that they really need to do the latter.
Instead, we will adopt a policy of blockade and investigation into the root causes of both the overall war and the Polaris incident. As a gesture of good faith, we are asking the Caitians to restrain themselves as outlined above.
Phase 1A: Starfleet (and the Caitians) contain the situation by setting up inspection patrols around the area and officially declaring that we will allow no outside military intervention until the situation is resolved peacefully, including searching for military equipment. Specifically, the Caitians are at war and can put up a blockade. We could use our ships to scan for ships entering the region, not do anything about it ourselves, but tell the Caitians. Then Caitian ships could enforce the blockade.
Perhaps ask for Betazoids to help out keeping the peace and helping us detect ships smuggling in weapons or hidden Cardassians (Presumably if a Cardassian cruiser strolls up we let them through to prevent triggering a war.)
Obviously the blockade will take place a comfortable distance from any specific Dawiar world, installation, or outpost.
Phase 1B: (AT THE SAME TIME) Attempt to figure out exactly how this happened. Perhaps someone triggered a Dawiar taboo or misread a custom. Perhaps some trick or misunderstanding caused the Dawiar to think they had to attack the Federation (and the Caitians) first.
Invite in a relatively neutral power known to the Dawiar to act as mediators and investigators. Attempt, with the Dawiar's consent, to begin mediation on a neutral world with the neutral power acting as arbitrators. (the Seyeks seem like a good option, as do the Risans). Send Enterprise along with our ambassadors, to let them know that we mean business.
Phase 2: (IN CASE OF EMERGENCY) If the Dawiar continue to refuse to co-operate and reject mediation or break off talks... Send Enterprise directly to the Dawiar home system to affirm our commitment to an equitable sharing of space and resources, and to ask, as directly as possible, that the Dawiar state their intentions toward us, and explain their actions. We recommend that this be done with one or more other explorers in trailing support at a distance, to warp in if Enterprise is attacked.
Under no circumstances is Enterprise to seek battle, however. If the explorers are attacked, their instructions are to withdraw from the system, causing as little harm to the Dawiar forces as is compatible with preserving the safety of their own commands.
The dispatch of multiple explorers is intended to shock the Dawiar into negotiation, or at least into explaining their motives in a clear and unambiguous fashion. It may reasonably be rejected without prejudice to Phases 0 and 1 of the plan.
If you like this plan, please vote for AKuz's plan "Inspect, Mediate, and Enlighten," which is basically this plan, only with some clarifications and minor modifications.
- Location
- Patriarchova
If the Cardassians attack the Caitians directly, we will be forced to revoke their CBZ privileges.
Doing this will be very painful and costly, but if they literally start a shooting war with our affiliates we will not have a choice. With all the assets we can call up from the Amarki, Apiata, etc I'm pretty confident we'd win but...yeah, costly.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
[Aaaand I'm gone for like 2-3 hours]
Impossible to answer without knowing the details of the situation at the time. My presumption is that we would be offered the option to declare a State of Emergency, and if we did that (and if it passed or was automatic) we would then go to monthly turns and be presented with detailed strategic options to choose from.
The most likely way the Cardassians escalate is declaring against the Caitians in defense of the Dawiar, which would basically force us to declare for the Caitians. Our best move is to prevent escalation by keeping the Cardassians away from the Caitians in every way we can.
Letting the Cardassians run a cruiser to Dawiar orbit, or forcing a Caitian-Cardassian confrontation in a Caitian blockade, or enforcing a policy where the Caitians can (through Obsidian Order manipulations), Lusitania a ship they shouldn't, would all be bad news and would likely bring the Cardassians against the Caitians. Such a move on the Cardassian part would be calculated because they would believe we would back down and let the Caitians take their licks, given that we understand they are not seeking a shooting war at this time. Obviously there is almost no situation where we'd allow a Cardassian-Caitian war without intervention, but they may force one anyway based on faulty ideas about our willingness to fight.
e: This is essentially the nightmare scenario of AKuz's and Jester's plan.
Letting the Cardassians run a cruiser to Dawiar orbit, or forcing a Caitian-Cardassian confrontation in a Caitian blockade, or enforcing a policy where the Caitians can (through Obsidian Order manipulations), Lusitania a ship they shouldn't, would all be bad news and would likely bring the Cardassians against the Caitians. Such a move on the Cardassian part would be calculated because they would believe we would back down and let the Caitians take their licks, given that we understand they are not seeking a shooting war at this time. Obviously there is almost no situation where we'd allow a Cardassian-Caitian war without intervention, but they may force one anyway based on faulty ideas about our willingness to fight.
e: This is essentially the nightmare scenario of AKuz's and Jester's plan.
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pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
And the known presence of cardassian arms on the dawiar vessels isn't enough to acknowledge cardassian involvement? The red-hand we're looking for, so to speak?
Sure, the layman might not know, but certainly all the governments of the area know, and they are all that matter.
I think SWB meant "involved in the eruption of violence during the diplomatic meeting" rather than "involved with the Dawiar". They are certainly arming the Dawiar, but red-handed would be to prove they caused the initial attack. Which, I mean, they probably did, but there's still a low chance it was some kind of cultural fuck-up.