- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I for one am actually TOTALLY FINE with a 42-ship fleet on our border. I just want to make sure that people have in-character reactions consistent with "oh my god look at their boats" and not just "meh."It may as well be. No one is happy that we now have a 42 ship Fleet on our borders.
The Harmony doing this is quite reasonable given that they've been played up as the guys who seem very nice up front until they crack and overreact out of narcissistic rage, so having them flip out and escalate on us while smiling very politely is kind of appropriate.
It's only a problem if people somehow act as if they're mind-controlled into totally ignoring the potential military implications of such a large and active force.
See, Briefvoice, groupthink is a thing. It's very easy for a group of people who work together closely to be so close to a problem or situation that they only think of it in the specific terms along which they've been working on it. Then they don't step back and go "wait, our plan for a Bay of Pigs invasion is stupid and has too many unreliable moving parts" or "wait, we've actually got a bunch of unsafe parts on this space shuttle" or "wait, while the Harmony may totally think a huge charm offensive is The Shit and may even be right about it working, it's going to ring alarm bells among people who don't trust them already."No Glassware, they just didn't see any issue until people starting saying there was one.
Were you trying to be sarcastic or what?
They're not omniscient, and that's fine. Every good GM occasionally has the experience of their players spotting an aspect of a situation they hadn't even considered, even if they're the one who came up with the situation in the first place.
Us seeing those precautions 'on-screen' and in-character would do a great deal to assuage confusion and consternation, at least on my part. Much of the cause of my distress about this situation has been, not the Harmony doing what it's doing (which is basically just them doing what we do only 2-3 times as hard)... But the fact that it took hours to convince certain people that there was even a reason why in-character people would react to a huge fleet movement as a potential threat, not just an exciting opportunity for interspecies diplomacy.Again:
They have precautions, particularly the bordering powers and the Federation
I'd say that the effective cap on how big a force you can send to engage a minor power in diplomacy should be something like, oh, half the total Combat (or Combat+Shields or whatever) of the forces the minor power has available to defend itself. The Sticker Shock tag should probably scale proportionately. If the guy you're sending to has a Combat 60 fleet and you send a Combat 35 task force, you might get something like [Sticker Shock, [N/300], where N is some large number like 250 or 200.I'm actually not opposed to adding a "sticker shock" tag the Harmony have to get through. But then like... if you go that big you'd have to deal with it too. Or it's hypocritical.
Also: What is the cap that is reasonable?
As the fleet you send gets bigger and killier and more intimidating, N decreases, to the point where if you blatantly intimidate a minor power with a gigantic armada, it might get them to comply with you but you've got a 300 or 500-point tag to cut through before they ever trust you again.
So if you don't actually give a shit whether the Hishmeri are intimidated and resentful or not, you just want them to end slavery NOW, you can court those Sticker Shock tags, but it'll be a problem for you later on.
When dealing with very low-tech civilizations (e.g. the Lamarck), the rules might be relaxed, or stretched, or the nature of the tag itself might change.
The tags might also be larger if you show up specifically to influence a target species' internal politics, and smaller if you show up to help them with some problem that threatens them. I might draft rules like:
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Let N equal (total Combat of task force)/(total Combat of target species navy)
[If N is less than 0.5] -> [no sticker shock]
[if N is between 0.5 and 0.75] -> [Add 0/100 or 200/300 "Sticker Shock" tag, so 100 points of sticker shock to get through]
[if N is between 0.75 and 1] -> [add 100/300 or two 0/100 "Sticker Shock" tags, so 200 points to get through]
[If N is greater than 1]-> [add three 0/100 "Sticker Shock" tags, so 300 points to get through]
-If the task force is here to save a species from an existential threat, no sticker shock because that would be kind of silly.
-If the task force is here to save a species from an external, non-existential threat (e.g. the Ashidi and Cardassian Threat tag or whatever we're calling it, sticker shock might, say, be cut in half.
-If the task force is explicitly there to alter a species' politics in ways likely to provoke widespread hostility, sticker shock might be potentially increased over this baseline because people resent being imperialized.
This also incentivizes us to build the kind of ships the Council historically seems to like anyway- relatively peaceful ships that will roll well on events without being terror-monsters in battle. They'll do well on task force events without triggering anyone's sense of "help, I'm being imperialized!" And the sticker shock penalties aren't so big that they automatically invalidate big task forces, especially big task forces divided among multiple species. They just create a diminishing returns effect that discourages people from using doomstacks to force-affiliate single targets rather than working on them gradually.
Well, if we have a mechanic for "task forces that are the size of the target's whole national navy create their own problems that can be as hard or harder to resolve than the problem they came to solve," the fucked-up-ed-ness of sending big fleets to befriend people is somewhat self-limiting.As IW pointed out in discord the TF system is kind of fucked up because you deploy a fleet to make someone your friend. But the solution to being stuck in that isn't to double down, much the opposite.
I'm pretty sure the Amarki could secede if they want to; in canon there are planets that have done that and the Federation left them alone.I don't like the fact that the Horizon guys are so powerful that they can put 42 ships most of with Are Capital class on our borders solely to try to influence minor powers into joining with them instead of us. And then there is the Amarkia situation. That one is truly bothering me for some reason. The Amarkia wont leave the federation. In fact they cant since they are now in the middle of Federation territory as well as long standing members of the Federation who have bled with us especially at the Battle of Kadesh when we were battling the Biophage. So why are the Horizonites sending a diplo team to talk to them. That part as I said bothers me.
But that being said, we don't own the Amarki and if they come to regret affiliation with the Federation then they may well choose to end that affiliation. It's very clear from what we heard about the Chrystovia crisis that the Amarki are extremely unhappy with Starfleet's decision not to intervene; the Amarki are crusaders by nature. Moreover, they are probably by nature not well equipped to fully comprehend what the Harmony is like and to have the appropriate level of mistrust for them, unless they've been properly briefed by past victims like the Tauni and ISC.
So I think this is reasonable and I don't have a problem with it at all, myself. I mean I don't like it, but it's a reasonable, foreseeable consequence of unfriendly master diplomats on our border trying to capitalize on our decision to avoid a potentially risky war to save a species from Cardassian conquest.