It may as well be. No one is happy that we now have a 42 ship Fleet on our borders.
I for one am actually TOTALLY FINE with a 42-ship fleet on our border. I just want to make sure that people have in-character reactions consistent with "oh my god look at their boats" and not just "meh."

The Harmony doing this is quite reasonable given that they've been played up as the guys who seem very nice up front until they crack and overreact out of narcissistic rage, so having them flip out and escalate on us while smiling very politely is kind of appropriate.

It's only a problem if people somehow act as if they're mind-controlled into totally ignoring the potential military implications of such a large and active force.

No Glassware, they just didn't see any issue until people starting saying there was one.

Were you trying to be sarcastic or what?
See, Briefvoice, groupthink is a thing. It's very easy for a group of people who work together closely to be so close to a problem or situation that they only think of it in the specific terms along which they've been working on it. Then they don't step back and go "wait, our plan for a Bay of Pigs invasion is stupid and has too many unreliable moving parts" or "wait, we've actually got a bunch of unsafe parts on this space shuttle" or "wait, while the Harmony may totally think a huge charm offensive is The Shit and may even be right about it working, it's going to ring alarm bells among people who don't trust them already."

They're not omniscient, and that's fine. Every good GM occasionally has the experience of their players spotting an aspect of a situation they hadn't even considered, even if they're the one who came up with the situation in the first place.

Again:

They have precautions, particularly the bordering powers and the Federation
Us seeing those precautions 'on-screen' and in-character would do a great deal to assuage confusion and consternation, at least on my part. Much of the cause of my distress about this situation has been, not the Harmony doing what it's doing (which is basically just them doing what we do only 2-3 times as hard)... But the fact that it took hours to convince certain people that there was even a reason why in-character people would react to a huge fleet movement as a potential threat, not just an exciting opportunity for interspecies diplomacy.

I'm actually not opposed to adding a "sticker shock" tag the Harmony have to get through. But then like... if you go that big you'd have to deal with it too. Or it's hypocritical.
Also: What is the cap that is reasonable?
I'd say that the effective cap on how big a force you can send to engage a minor power in diplomacy should be something like, oh, half the total Combat (or Combat+Shields or whatever) of the forces the minor power has available to defend itself. The Sticker Shock tag should probably scale proportionately. If the guy you're sending to has a Combat 60 fleet and you send a Combat 35 task force, you might get something like [Sticker Shock, [N/300], where N is some large number like 250 or 200.

As the fleet you send gets bigger and killier and more intimidating, N decreases, to the point where if you blatantly intimidate a minor power with a gigantic armada, it might get them to comply with you but you've got a 300 or 500-point tag to cut through before they ever trust you again.

So if you don't actually give a shit whether the Hishmeri are intimidated and resentful or not, you just want them to end slavery NOW, you can court those Sticker Shock tags, but it'll be a problem for you later on.

When dealing with very low-tech civilizations (e.g. the Lamarck), the rules might be relaxed, or stretched, or the nature of the tag itself might change.

The tags might also be larger if you show up specifically to influence a target species' internal politics, and smaller if you show up to help them with some problem that threatens them. I might draft rules like:

===============================

Let N equal (total Combat of task force)/(total Combat of target species navy)

[If N is less than 0.5] -> [no sticker shock]
[if N is between 0.5 and 0.75] -> [Add 0/100 or 200/300 "Sticker Shock" tag, so 100 points of sticker shock to get through]
[if N is between 0.75 and 1] -> [add 100/300 or two 0/100 "Sticker Shock" tags, so 200 points to get through]
[If N is greater than 1]-> [add three 0/100 "Sticker Shock" tags, so 300 points to get through]

-If the task force is here to save a species from an existential threat, no sticker shock because that would be kind of silly.
-If the task force is here to save a species from an external, non-existential threat (e.g. the Ashidi and Cardassian Threat tag or whatever we're calling it, sticker shock might, say, be cut in half.
-If the task force is explicitly there to alter a species' politics in ways likely to provoke widespread hostility, sticker shock might be potentially increased over this baseline because people resent being imperialized.

This also incentivizes us to build the kind of ships the Council historically seems to like anyway- relatively peaceful ships that will roll well on events without being terror-monsters in battle. They'll do well on task force events without triggering anyone's sense of "help, I'm being imperialized!" And the sticker shock penalties aren't so big that they automatically invalidate big task forces, especially big task forces divided among multiple species. They just create a diminishing returns effect that discourages people from using doomstacks to force-affiliate single targets rather than working on them gradually.

As IW pointed out in discord the TF system is kind of fucked up because you deploy a fleet to make someone your friend. But the solution to being stuck in that isn't to double down, much the opposite.
Well, if we have a mechanic for "task forces that are the size of the target's whole national navy create their own problems that can be as hard or harder to resolve than the problem they came to solve," the fucked-up-ed-ness of sending big fleets to befriend people is somewhat self-limiting.

I don't like the fact that the Horizon guys are so powerful that they can put 42 ships most of with Are Capital class on our borders solely to try to influence minor powers into joining with them instead of us. And then there is the Amarkia situation. That one is truly bothering me for some reason. The Amarkia wont leave the federation. In fact they cant since they are now in the middle of Federation territory as well as long standing members of the Federation who have bled with us especially at the Battle of Kadesh when we were battling the Biophage. So why are the Horizonites sending a diplo team to talk to them. That part as I said bothers me.
I'm pretty sure the Amarki could secede if they want to; in canon there are planets that have done that and the Federation left them alone.

But that being said, we don't own the Amarki and if they come to regret affiliation with the Federation then they may well choose to end that affiliation. It's very clear from what we heard about the Chrystovia crisis that the Amarki are extremely unhappy with Starfleet's decision not to intervene; the Amarki are crusaders by nature. Moreover, they are probably by nature not well equipped to fully comprehend what the Harmony is like and to have the appropriate level of mistrust for them, unless they've been properly briefed by past victims like the Tauni and ISC.

So I think this is reasonable and I don't have a problem with it at all, myself. I mean I don't like it, but it's a reasonable, foreseeable consequence of unfriendly master diplomats on our border trying to capitalize on our decision to avoid a potentially risky war to save a species from Cardassian conquest.
 
I think it should be based on the size of the great powers that were concerned in the region. So one could deploy 100 ships to deal with a problem on a one planet minor power (but why would you?) but when operating in an area where the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, HoH or ISC had some interest (which could overlap), taskforces would need to be limited to some portion of that power's military power.

This of course could mean that we send a taskforce into Breen space that is small enough that the HoH aren't alarmed (but still counter with a normal diplomacy taskforce), but is large enough that the Romulans are alarmed, meaning they mobilize their forces, send off huffy diplomatic letters and are generally extremely twitchy, meaning we have to clear a tag to stop border incidents with twitchy Romulans shooting at anything that looks too dangerous, or face a war if the tag goes into negative territory.

So all those minor powers are supposed to happily accept "massive" fleets cruising through their space simply because they can't do anything about it? Because it seems horrendously unrealistic and unfair to me to implement such a limit only in regards to GP who can actually threaten the Federation back. And the whole spheres of interest thing is so deeply imperialistic that I would argue it heavily clashes with the general intention behind the quest.

I mean I generally agree that the whole taskforce system is somewhat ridiculous and unrealistic ( I mean really solving highly complex political, social, cultural and economic questions shouldn't exactly be something you do in that timeframe or via a few ships (and if they simply serve as "transports" it makes little sense for their stats to have such an impact...) nor makes the whole "more ships = better result" much sense either) but it is what we got and it seems more than a bit opportunistic to happily accept it when its in our favour allowed us to win but decry it as unfair and unrealistic when it is to our disadvantage... Plus isn't the federation the one faction in this quest that always pushes this whole "heavily armed" ship isn't a warship narrative and thus most accepting of the whole "massive armed ships serves civilian puposes" idea?
 
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I don't think there should be any tags generated or mechanical consequences for this deployment by the Horizon. Like some people have already said, we would certainly be deploying task forces of this size if we had the spare ships. It would be hypocritical, and I'm not eager to add even more complicating mechanics. But it would be nice to see some reactions to this play out in the flavor of events for Beyond. I can see Lugis wanting reassurances that the Federation would support their affiliate if his government were threatened by the Horizon, for example. We don't have as great a look into the politics of the other minor nations, but like Simon_Jester was saying , it stretches credulity that the response to this from the minor factions and the Federation is "business as usual"
 
Like some people have already said, we would certainly be deploying task forces of this size if we had the spare ships. It would be hypocritical, and I'm not eager to add even more complicating mechanics.

I disagree. I don't think we would send out TFs this large, for pretty much the same reasons people are disturbed by seeing the HoH doing so.
 
I'd just to point out that two Expeditionary Fleets (maybe three) were already sitting around here for a while, waiting for us to wave them through to join up with a Starfleet fleet to smash through Bajor => Kobheeria => Chrystovia.

We haven't seen general reactions from the locals yet. Everyone was fine with all these ships in the area because they were ostensibly on the border there to sail on through to start bending spoons in earnest.
 
For all the concerns about space sovereignty, one would think people would protest or even just note the ISC Felis task force, with 18 ships and combined C91, without considering a third of Beyond.
 
For all the concerns about space sovereignty, one would think people would protest or even just note the ISC Felis task force, with 18 ships and combined C91, without considering a third of Beyond.

Now that's totally different. The ISC would never just conquer some troublesome neighboring polity to secure its borders.

TALARIANS: *cough*cough*cough*

ISC: Did we give you permission to breathe maggot?

TALARIANS: No sir, stopping breathing now sir.
 
For all the concerns about space sovereignty, one would think people would protest or even just note the ISC Felis task force, with 18 ships and combined C91, without considering a third of Beyond.
Actually, I do think that both the ISC force and the HoH fleet opposing it are completely insane in scale but for one thing: they're obviously there for defense against each other. The ISC has been openly hostile against the HoH and likewise have reason to believe the HoH might try to finish the job, as it were, against them. So I can accept that the primary purpose of both fleets is defense. If the ISC and HoH were friendly to each other, relatively speaking, then it would be completely insane. It still is way too many ships to court one species.
 
Now that's totally different. The ISC would never just conquer some troublesome neighboring polity to secure its borders.

TALARIANS: *cough*cough*cough*

To be fair, the Talarians were real dicks to the ISC once upon a time.

If the ISC and HoH were friendly to each other, relatively speaking, then it would be completely insane. It still is way too many ships to court one species.

Opposed Task Force rolls be a harsh mistress...
 
Actually, I do think that both the ISC force and the HoH fleet opposing it are completely insane in scale but for one thing: they're obviously there for defense against each other. The ISC has been openly hostile against the HoH and likewise have reason to believe the HoH might try to finish the job, as it were, against them. So I can accept that the primary purpose of both fleets is defense. If the ISC and HoH were friendly to each other, relatively speaking, then it would be completely insane. It still is way too many ships to court one species.
But even this is not a "How come those powers accept fleets that can conquer them in their territory, where is space sovereignty!" thing that is so heard right now. Even if primary goal of those fleets is defense, it's a particularly active "Establish buffer state" defense, with both fleets doing the usual diplomatic task force thing.
 
As a slight break in the topic, from something I was just reading, regarding ship building times.

Australia has released the details on our next generation British designed, American equipped Frigate program. The Hunter class anti-submarine Frigate (with module space, the newest buzz word in naval design).
Construction of the nine vessels is due to start in 2020.
The FIRST one is expected to be delivered in 2029-2030 ...

So a 9-10 year build time in the current world for a ~150m frigate.

As for why we are building anti-sub ships, well the article points out by the time these are operational, China is expected to have 70 subs in the waters to our north ...
 
But even this is not a "How come those powers accept fleets that can conquer them in their territory, where is space sovereignty!" thing that is so heard right now. Even if primary goal of those fleets is defense, it's a particularly active "Establish buffer state" defense, with both fleets doing the usual diplomatic task force thing.
Yeah, and the Felis should be up to wits end being caught in a 30 ship great power sandwich enough that they should be ready to turf half of them and us. Courting the Felis as a buffer state should not involve more ships than they'll produce in the next 100 years.

e: in addition, I am specifically saying that the Felis are a secondary objective and the primary objective is just defending the ISC-HoH border, from both sides
 
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Omake - Where Now, the Philosophers? - brmj
Where Now, the Philosophers?

Jorphassh awoke to the sounds of nature. The musical chirping of the dawn-lizards. The bellowing croaks of crothegs down by the pond. The calls of fliers big and small. The uncanny barks of those horrible giant crickets that always seemed to get everywhere. The faint rustling of the wind in the trees outside. The first light of dawn didn't reach far enough into his cave to wake him, but the chorus it brought with it reached him just fine.
As with most mornings, he tried to go back to sleep for a time, but the wildlife wasn't cooperating. Finally, admitting defeat, he set about getting up and getting on with his day. He stretched elaborately, something in his back popping as he went, rubbed at his eyes, and set about disentangling himself from the pile of rags and hides over loose bundles of dried reads that served as his bed.

Fumbling around in the half-light, he found and donned his habitual outfit: filthy, tattered robes, cloak made of an equally filthy fur, and crudely constructed hat of the same. He didn't really care for the hat, thinking it was a bit much and made him look ridiculous, but there was nothing to be done. As a finishing touch, he retrieved his brass-rimmed spectacles from the ledge he had left them on the night before. One of the perils of getting old.
Moving to the front of the cave, he poked at the ashes of the last night's fire with a stick until he exposed some still hot coals. With skill born of practice, he brought it back to life with some bark shavings, then twigs, then larger sticks, and finally a pair of chunks of split log. Satisfied with himself, he filled his little kettle with water from the plastic jug he'd filled the other day and carefully hung it over the fire to boil. After a moment's thought, he followed it up with the cast-iron pot (a human observer might have said "dutch oven", but he had no idea who the Dutch are) containing the dregs of last night's stew. Finally feeling a bit more awake, he sat on the stump by the fire to wait and allowed himself to muse a little bit.

He'd once held the Ssarthassh-ites in contempt. Their ideal had always been a simple life of solitude and contemplation, in touch with nature, and combined with enough hardship to build character. He'd felt that they had nothing to offer the poor, who needed it most, and their guidance to the rich and powerful was in practice little more than an appeal towards their self-image with no real substance behind it. Those with the right inclination for Ssarthasshist ideas could parrot them back and think themselves wise, as they feasted in their mansions and looked out over their fine and expansive gardens. Not rigidly structured formal gardens, obviously, but the carefully contrived sort that pretended to be natural, so that they can demonstrate to their guests just how in touch with the simple life they are.

He still thought that, honestly, but to his chagrin he found that a life not too far off from the Ssarthasshist ideal mostly agreed with him. He wouldn't mind a little more comfort, a chance to bathe more often, or proper cloths to wear, but he certainly didn't miss academic politics one bit, and a lot of his former colleagues were much worse off. He enjoyed the solitude, and the chance to read and think without interruption. The fact that he was currently living off of the self-image of one of the Ssarthasshist-influenced nobles he so disdained was an unfortunate extra barb of irony.

He missed the Institute for Philosophical Inquiry. He wasn't going to deny that. He missed the chance to debate and collaborate with learned colleagues, the great library, and his comfortable office and apartment. He missed the chance to hopefully impart some real knowledge on the occasional genuinely worthy student, and he wasn't too proud to admit he missed the respect that had come with his status and the part he had played in a proud, three thousand year old institution.

Really, though, by the standards of the Hegemony, he was fairly well off. He had enough to eat, his cave did a good job keeping the rain out, and the local climate was neither too hot nor too cold. He had a lot of free time, access to the rudiments of medical care, and data net access, even if it had taken a lot of convincing to get the last. In the end, the line of argument that had won was that he needed access to an appropriate library of scholarly texts to maintain the desired level of wisdom, and that though one or two printed tomes was thematic, a full library might strain suspension of disbelief.

No, he'd take this over his brief stint living in a leaking tenement and trying to make ends meet as a janitor. He had no serious complaints about his personal lot in life beyond those implicit in his critique of the larger society. Perhaps something about the indignity of it in particular, but it wasn't really any worse than the indignity billions faced every day, just more blatant. What really got to him was what had happened to the IPI, and to many of his less fortunate colleagues.

To see a proud academic institution, thousands of years old, with the highest traditions of scholarship and independence, brought low by the most cynical of politics... it brought tears to his eyes. Generations of academics going back to the glory days of the empire. Some of the greatest philosophical, sociological, literary, political and economic thinkers in Gorn history had walked those hallowed halls, lectured at those ancient podiums. All of that history trampled into the mud when someone important enough found the strain of egalitarian and even pacifist ideas that had been enjoying renewed popularity there inconvenient and dangerous. Three quarters of the faculty purged and replaced with nice, safe and apolitical Ssarthasshites and Neo-Hasszoists, politically useful Harnasshist economists and Post-Lombrorist sociologists and a wide range of the most intellectually bankrupt Reclaimer-sympathizers they could find. The old faculty, cast out on the street and blacklisted without warning, with few even able to find jobs as private tutors. One of the last great bastions of free inquiry at least nominally not in service to ruling class interests, ripped apart and cynically rebuilt to provide an ideological justification for the worst flaws in Gorn society. He'd read enough Sszaphan and Ergix to expect some of that from academia, but the Institute had always been special. Different. To see everything that made it so flagrantly violated like this... even today, he didn't have the words.

His kettle started boiling. Taking it off the fire, he carefully selected a handful of dried herbs and flowers from the bunches he'd hung from the ceiling of his cave and threw them in to steep. Next, flipped the hourglass that sat on the little table towards the entrance of his cave, far enough in to not get rained on but far enough out to get a bit of sunlight and be prominently visible to any visitors who might wander by. The hourglass was intended to be contemplated as a symbol of mortality and the like, but he'd gotten good enough at eyeballing it to use it for tea. The skull that sat next to it, also a symbol of mortality and no doubt formerly belonging to some beggar or executed criminal, he had no such use for. Wretched thing, but supposedly thematic enough to be essential.

As he waited on his herbal tea, he rescued the last of the stew before it could stick to the pot more than it already was, scooping it onto his crude, ceramic plate. Joining it was a little hunk of cold meat and some fine, if somewhat crushed, pastries left over from a meal at the manor house the other night. Sometimes the servants were kind enough to slip him that kind of thing, when there was more left over than they could finish. He didn't mind that they usually didn't share: many of them had families to feed, and he had permission to supplement his meager official food allowance by fishing and gathering edible plants from the grounds, at least so long as he didn't do it to excess. The table scraps were far finer than anything else he typically got to eat, but he was in no danger of starvation.

As he poured his first cup of tea, pushing his spectacles back up his snout when they threatened to slip, he recalled a half-remembered bit of poetry that fit all too well.

Where now, the ancients who built the shining cities?
The soaring towers, the empire without peer?
Where now, the philosopher-princes of old?
Where today is Rerssin the Law-Giver, or King Fasshak the Wise?
Where the gleaming hall of justice, the dust-cloaked library?
The schools where once the children did go?

We have found again the mighty fleet,
But yet misplace the wisdom that once guided it.
We have brought out the tattered flags,
Taken up the moldering banners of our father's father's fathers,
We wear the ribboned finery of old, dyed in the blood of those who fell,
And we remark, "Is this not a fetching shade of red?"

He'd always thought that piece looked too kindly upon the past, but perhaps a little revisionism was acceptable when one is cultivating melancholy and turning it against the failings of the present.

That, perhaps, opened up a larger argument about the value of truth, and how to balance it when it conflicts with beauty or justice or some other end. Something a great many others before him had written on, and that he himself had thought about a bit. He tried to be a consequentialist about this sort of thing in general, but like many in his school of thought found truth to be also both an end in itself, and a precondition for making reasoned choices about all other matters. Truth to one's self at least; the same courtesies need not be extended to others where a conflict exists over not just means, but ends.

His employer, fortunately for him, had a rather different understanding of the relationship between truth, beauty, and other ends. Hiring an out of work academic to play the part of a wise old hermit living in his garden, provide sage advice on demand, and occasionally entertain guests at parties necessitated a certain internal detachment from the substance of things in service of the desired aesthetic. Chancellor Gambrish, Executor of the Collegium of Telecommunications and third-tier Florist political figure, was not a man burdened with a great respect for the truth when failing to acknowledge it might be of service towards his needs and desires. And so Jorphassh, former senior professor in political philosophy at the Institute for Philosophical Inquiry, of late fallen on hard times and working as a living garden ornament, was somehow mysteriously transmuted in his mind into Jorphassh, the wise old hermit who has been graciously allowed to live on the grounds and contemplate mortality, the Gornish condition and the great mysteries of the universe alone and in peace. Except when entertaining guests, of course, but peace is relative.

Shaking his head ruefully, he began to dig into his breakfast in earnest.

It had been fairly easy to get the job, once he knew it was out there. Most of the other candidates were insufficiently wise, and even if he was less wizened looking than some, he was old enough to project the desired image, especially after a long-lasting injection to dull his scale color and the laser eye surgery that made the spectacles necessary. He was still annoyed about that. He was well-spoken, solitary by nature, and able to impress the interviewer with his background in philosophy, all together better suited for the job than most of the other candidates. Of course, the hermit he was replacing had been fired for being caught out of uniform and blackout drunk in the more disreputable of the two taverns in the closest town, so perhaps the bar wasn't overly high. Not terribly hermit-like behavior, that.

The most surprising thing, he'd found, was that he had more influence now as a fake hermit than he ever did as one of the top academics in his field. The executor of a (relatively unimportant) collegium routinely came to him for advice, and he'd had opportunities to meet and briefly interact with a range of moderately important nobles and industrialists. So long as he kept it brief and made it sound profound enough, they even wanted to hear what he had to say! Approach them as an academic and he was a dangerous radical, out of touch or a waste of good warship money. Dress in rags and live in a cave, though, and suddenly he was in possession of deep and profound wisdom. Perhaps more importantly, by listening to it they could demonstrate to their peers just how deep and profound they must themselves be by association. There were of course limits to this, most notably when he started advocating something they weren't already inclined towards or when the smell grew to be more than they could tolerate, but having any kind of voice at all was an interesting and pleasant change.

There was a line he recalled from one of those interesting new texts that were starting to filter in from the Federation:

"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."



A/N: And now for something completely different. For some bizarre reason, my muse would not let me be on this. For the moment, it mostly serves to provide a window into the many failings of Gorn society, though there's a chance I may revisit the character. For those not aware, Jorphassh's job is all to real. And no, Jorphassh isn't really a Marxist (though who knows, if he keeps on reading...), I just saw an opportunity to cap things off nicely with a Marx quote, so of course I had to take it. How could I not?
 
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(rubs his forehead) This is what I wasworried about with the big contentious vote - that I felt that if the Federation didn't go in for it, that the plot would bring a similarly-scoped problem (that comes down to "the Federation doesn't have enough ships available") to their doorstep, only now with assorted parties internal and external feeling a bit salty about the Federation's choices.

In this case, Harmony deciding to overwhelm the Federation with vessels in a different "battleground". No violence (yet), but it's the same kind of thing - "under threat, need yet more ships".

Now, perhaps this isn't out of either a desire for There To Be Consequences for Any Choice or to rummage up a crisis - perhaps I'm being unfair and my interpretation is off... but I have to admit I'm feeling a bit disgruntled at the moment at the prospect of a lack of some kind of a 'breather'. A couple quarters where there's not an urgent sense of "Yellow Federation needs ships badly", perhaps...
 
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[X] Focus on the Licori and OSA.

Look, all I'm saying is that the AI never believes me when I say my units are just passing through in Civilization V, so I don't see why they'd believe the HoH here.
 
Everyone in the wider vicinity should become apprehensive if the Federation and Horizon continue to poor battlegroups into this area of space to conduct diplomacy. Even just because of 'what happens if that conflict gets resolved? What happens if they start shooting?'. For the local minor powers, the latter is acerbated by 'and what will be the collateral damage?'

Edit: And from a statistical point of view, the more ships the more potential for accidents (both kinds).
 
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(rubs his forehead) This is what I wasworried about with the big contentious vote - that I felt that if the Federation didn't go in for it, that the plot would bring a similarly-scoped problem (that comes down to "the Federation doesn't have enough ships available") to their doorstep, only now with assorted parties internal and external feeling a bit salty about the Federation's choices.

In this case, Harmony deciding to overwhelm the Federation with vessels in a different "battleground". No violence (yet), but it's the same kind of thing - "under threat, need yet more ships".

Now, perhaps this isn't out of either a desire for There To Be Consequences for Any Choice or to rummage up a crisis - perhaps I'm being unfair and my interpretation is off... but I have to admit I'm feeling a bit disgruntled at the moment at the prospect of a lack of some kind of a 'breather'. A couple quarters where there's not an urgent sense of "Yellow Federation needs ships badly", perhaps...
You've long since grown too big to not have at least some crisis somewhere.

Edit: This isn't a bad thing - it's just a product of success in getting swole.
 
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I think it's kind of insane that the minors in this area are even vaguely okay with such massive task forces in their area.

Like at that point why not such pick one side?
 
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