AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The Federation may not be a Utopia, but they actively struggle towards it. The best we've gotten so far IRL is talking about it occasionally.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
The Federation may not be a Utopia, but they actively struggle towards it. The best we've gotten so far IRL is talking about it occasionally.
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
Good thing Janeway's going to act like she should have, instead of her all over the place characterization in Voyager, when she shows up here.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
If she does, for all we know her father died on say, Polaris
- Location
- madison
that's one of the big themes of star trek thought. The optimism and hope of the federation is as much a part of the setting as the pessimism and grimdarkness is a part of warhammer. Saying how you disagree that it's present or that you don't like it is like saying 40k isn't that grim dark or how you wish it was more optimistic.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
They're peaceful, they have their own defense force that was originally intended to protect them against all comers and is still there, and they're close enough to Sol that any emergencies in their space which demand response can get support from Sol's sector fleet.
While I WANT to engage with the Dawiar, having the Klingons take them under their wing is much better than having them run around the galaxy like a loose cannon. And it's certainly going to be less frustrating than having them in the Federation.
We saw far, far more of that as Trek rolled into the '90s and idealism became unfashionable, in favor of a relatively 'dark and grungy' aesthetic. Utopianism was out, conspiracy theories were in- and suddenly Section 31 was a thing.
This isn't what Star Trek was originally supposed to be about. And I don't think it's what attracts a lot of people to the setting. The more the Federation looks like a Generic Space Empire, the less it has to draw and compel viewers and readers.
And yet, they are not exactly a military. I just got done watching a TNG episode, for instance, where the Enterprise-D comes upon a strange spacefaring lifeform. They scan it, it scans them, it attacks them, they shoot back and kill it- and you can see Picard is genuinely bothered by this, almost distraught given his emotionally restrained standards. Because he's not out there to kill things. Even if that's necessary, even if he accepts that combat is part of the job, it's not what he's out there for.
Think about which people we have as role models for the Federation.
Honestly, James Kirk was a military man in the same sense James Cook was- sure, he's got military rank, he's a fighting man who runs an armed ship in a military service... but his role as a combatant does not define him, and his reputation stands on the strength of the exploration he did, not the fighting he did.
That goes double for Picard.
Sisko? Sisko did a lot of fighting, because he had the misfortunate to be thrust into a war. Several of them, even. I won't deny that, but it's not what Federation personnel would normally aspire to.
It's not that the Federation is a utopia, it's that they're really, honestly trying. And the bare fact of even trying to be utopia brings you pretty close to your end goal all by itself.
So yes, the Federation really WILL try diplomacy one last time, after almost anyone else would give up and dehumanize their opponent and say "they don't need reasons to attack us, they're just homicidal savages, exterminate the brutes!" They really WILL plan ahead for fighting a minor species and recognize that they need to operate in such a way that said species fits into the postwar status quo as an independent piece of the puzzle. They really WILL do all this stuff that seems impossibly naive to your typical realpolitik person. And it works, because doing right by doing good is a more va
- Location
- Australia
Okay, so upcoming schedule. Pre-Snakepit Event courtesy of The War ("I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it"), Regular Snakepit Turn, Captain's Log, Snakepit Result.
Snakepit turn will actually have an Intel Steering Committee choice this time since I can ask you something more interesting than "Would you like to focus on Cardas-""YES."
Snakepit turn will actually have an Intel Steering Committee choice this time since I can ask you something more interesting than "Would you like to focus on Cardas-""YES."
- Location
- Australia
Last edited:
KleverKil'Vanya
Ortillery Operator
At any point are you guys going to ever be able to actually, ya know, stop Cardassia from one-shoting your dozen+ turn diplomacy at whim?
Cause as interesting as reading it is, it becomes at least mildly irritating to see a string of 0 intelligence successes against Cardies while they seem to be able to find, infiltrate, and subervt at will halfway into Federation territory while you struggle to find anything at all about them.
Cause as interesting as reading it is, it becomes at least mildly irritating to see a string of 0 intelligence successes against Cardies while they seem to be able to find, infiltrate, and subervt at will halfway into Federation territory while you struggle to find anything at all about them.
- Location
- Australia
Funnily enough, that's pretty close to what the Obsidian Order is asking Cardassian Central Command at the moment.
KleverKil'Vanya
Ortillery Operator
Why?
All the Federation has done has been reactionary except for the off the books illegal op Sulu ordered.
Meanwhile the Cardies somehow get agents to nearly anywhere in federation space at will.
All the Federation has done has been reactionary except for the off the books illegal op Sulu ordered.
Meanwhile the Cardies somehow get agents to nearly anywhere in federation space at will.
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
The only time the Cardassians have gotten into Federation space is their failed attack on the Amaraki signing, after which Sulu and Nash then blew up the base they set up to run it from.
And there's all her successes against them before and after that too.
Our only big failure against them, that we know of of course, is with the Syndraxians. The stuff with the Dawiar is still in progress, so I'm confident we can turn that around.
And there's their colony world the T'Mir found and has almost certainly been observing, possibly without the Cardassians even knowing that we know.
So no, they most certainly aren't operating freely against us or having nothing but success.
Last edited:
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Because our Explorer captains are everywhere, and when they see problems, they solve them. The Cardassians can't anticipate them or plan for them, because we don't have a plan, or a system. We just find exceptional people, give them ships, and support them.
As a result, they are creative and responsive in ways Cardassia is really not equipped to handle.
- Location
- somewhere
Stealing the deal with the Indorions from them by subverting one of the aides of their delegation wasn't reactive. And given their resource needs that one has to hurt them a lot.
They haven't yet gotten any agents into any of the original 6 sectors yet, as far as we know.
Last edited:
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
Ah, the classic strategy...of having no strategy!
...
I feel that insults real humans some.
A great many real world societies have actively struggled towards utopia.
Some of them are or have been considered to be among the most evil regimes to have existed on the Earth (hello Revolutionary France, Communist China, Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany).
Still, the struggle for a better, more civilized tomorrow is likely as old as mankind.
I doubt the bodies of those killed in the Federation's wars feel any differently towards the Federation than the bodies of those killed in Napoleon's wars. Intent doesn't matter much to those who have been killed or hurt by what may or may not be a necessary action.
Much like Revolutionary France I suspect the Federation's neighbours see the Federation as a society with a dangerous and destructive ideology whose inevitable failure can only cause chaos and whose expansionism is a direct threat to themselves.
Good intentions don't stop actions from having consequences.
But in star trek the optimism is earned by action and hard work. Kirk, Picard and Sisko are all men who struggle to drag as many people forward to the best future they can.
They're by no means alone. But nor are their actions (and the actions of the more minor characters) unimportant. There are genuinely bad actors in the Federation and if no good men acted, the Federation would stop being so nice and start looking like a giant sized Section 31. And all of the main characters are shown making compromises between what they want to do and the best action they can practically take.
fasquardon
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
What's that old Soviet line about Americans being difficult to plan for because they don't know what their doctrine is supposed to be and don't care to follow it?Ah, the classic strategy...of having no strategy!
- Location
- madison
ok I think I've lost track of your point here. I thought you were just saying you found the representation of the federation as a utopia annoying/unrealistic. I mean yeah there are some bad actors in star fleet, but just because a paragon lives up to his ideals 90% of the time doesn't mean he's no better than someone who doesn't even bother with ideals.
It's like saying someone who struggles with the guilt of allowing someone else to die to save themselves is no better than some guy who's murders 3 people a year on average.
I kinda of agree. I get intellectually we have made the union bleed, but its hard to keep that in mind when all we know is that they have taken vague but serous losses, but we still get some massive hit out of the blue ever few turns.
Last edited:
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Heh.
I sometimes figure that Picard would've gone insane with all the shit he's encountered and had to deal with (Borg anyone?) without Troi's help.
It's good to see that Nash is getting a bit of closure.
So that's an improvement of 10br, 5sr, 3pp, 3rp, and the crew over their 300-500 affiliate level income.
Pity we didn't get a research team though.
First, I think you forgot to end that sentence
Second, it does indeed get a bit disheartening to see some "war hawks" in this thread advocate for hard-line actions, and even going as far as to call our enemies garbage or talking about "putting them down" or otherwise dehumanizing (heh) them.
That's not the Federation or Starfleet's way. Sure, there are disadvantages to always trying diplomacy first and resorting to military action as a last resort, and letting more devious enemies run amok outside the borders, but the Federation is a beacon of peaceful civilization that most others aspire too, industrially and technology advanced enough to provide security and well-being, and they ultimately always respond to a crisis in time.
And staying true to Starfleet's ideals is a worthy goal in and of itself.
