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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Glassware said:
Man what the fuck kind of wacky illicit xenophiliac fetishes are we inadvertently spreading through the Cardassian population?
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I think the problem is that they are SO hung up on anti-xenos propaganda that aliens are taboo... Which in turn grossly exaggerates their appeal. There are probably more Cardassians who think Nash is sexy because it's against the rules to think she's sexy, than there are Cardassians who actually think Nash is sexy.

It also Did Not Help that one of their first attempts to get the better of the Federation diplomatically was foiled by a married Cardassian officer being seduced by one of our ship captains (who also happens to have been kicking their asses in other ways). Which was then turned into a public show trial in which she tearfully confessed to the judge that the "alien seductress took advantage of her weakness." Let me emphasize that this happened publicly. So now she's got a reputation for being able to seduce otherwise functional agents of the state into (GASP) betraying their duties to the Union!

And the Cardassians are like, obsessive, about the possibility of betrayal... which probably translates into a lot of Cardassian officials having idle fantasies about evil spies trying (and failing) to seduce them into betraying the State... AND NOW THAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING. The Seductive Alien Spy was already probably a prominent figure in Cardassian popular media. Now she has a face, and that face is blue, has antennae, and inexplicably makes battlecruisers go 'splat.'

So Nash (and various Federation figures in general) has become to the Cardassians what the stereotypical seductive Russian spy was to Americans in the Cold War. Only more so because (1) there's a real person acting as poster girl for the phenomenon, and (2) the Cardies went and publicized "STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO THE SEXINESS," which only makes it worse. It's sort of like trying not to think of a pink elephant.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
But by 2315 it might look more like 16 Excelsiors, 20 cruisers (eight Constellations and twelve Constitutions, plus maybe the Renaissance prototype) and 24 escorts (the new ones being more Centaurs).
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We'll likely need to cut back a few years after this; our current combat cap is 230, and even with today's numbers - no refits - this works out to 96+24+60 (ignoring Rennies) + min 24 = 204.
 
For me each sector/border zone would have 1 explorer, 1 science ships, 1 to 2 cruisers, 2 to 3 escorts. That should cover garrison requirements and allow response to events. In addition we would have a Force of explorers cruisers and escorts that can be distributed as needed to respond to threats and crisis. This would not include the Explorer Corp which I think 10 would be a good cap there.
 
One issue is that every objective metric we have for our planned fleet size we have out there, including the combat cap, is a moving target. As the Federation grows, the combat cap and science floor rise, our productive capacities expand, and so on.

Right now a fleet of sixteen explorers, twenty cruisers, and twenty-four escorts sounds ambitious. In 2360 it will sound quaintly tiny.

Thoughts on the Explorer Corps:

I will note that the Captain's Logs are among the best parts of the whole quest, and obviously THOSE do not scale well at all, because the amount of writing is proportionate to the number of five year missions. At some point we're probably going to have explorers whose adventures aren't getting written up, or are written up as omakes.

ALSO, at some point we may think that staggering five year missions is a great idea, because it means we won't have to re-select eight or ten Explorer Corps captains at once. Having about two explorer captains up for replacement every year will be a lot easier than replacing all ten in one big thwack every five years. Especially since we will only rarely want to retain an incumbent captain, since the explorer corps captains are a recruiting ground for future admirals.

Void Stalker said:
For me each sector/border zone would have 1 explorer, 1 science ships, 1 to 2 cruisers, 2 to 3 escorts. That should cover garrison requirements and allow response to events. In addition we would have a Force of explorers cruisers and escorts that can be distributed as needed to respond to threats and crisis. This would not include the Explorer Corp which I think 10 would be a good cap there.
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Under my plan, the average would look something like "one explorer, two cruisers, and two or probably three escorts, especially if you count a science vessel as an escort."

This is pretty close to what we're already doing, and what we're already doing seems to work pretty well. Though we should constantly strive to improve the Science/Presence/Defense stats of our sector defense fleet ships.
 
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Leila Hann said:
That seems a bit extreme, even for Cardassians.
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Now that we have access to Cardassian civilian transmissions, I should probably have Wolfe write up something on the Cardassian legal system, but my thought is that it's very evidentiary based. It's why Cardassians can be so proud of the system, a Trial becoming more of a true crime documentary than a place where truth is sniffed out. In the case of Gul Cormai, however, the evidence against him is both embarrassing to the state and also involves highly classified secrets. A trial, even a secret one, has the potential to be very damaging in these unstable times.


In the mind of the Agent, he's giving Cormai a shot at redemption while sparing both his personal reputation, and the reputation of the State. It even mirrors the process of Cardassian justice, with the Agent serving as both Archon and Conservator, and Cormai offering something of a confession by dumping the water -- a sign that he has accepted his death, and will not attempt to prolong his survival, because only an innocent man would try to survive.

Think of it as slow-motion, state-sponsored seppuku. I imagine Cormai is not the only one taking a very long hike in a very remote location. Or it could be a religious tradition that has since been 'secularized,' the method inefficient but the symbolism somehow still powerful.
 
Void Stalker said:
For me each sector/border zone would have 1 explorer, 1 science ships, 1 to 2 cruisers, 2 to 3 escorts. That should cover garrison requirements and allow response to events. In addition we would have a Force of explorers cruisers and escorts that can be distributed as needed to respond to threats and crisis. This would not include the Explorer Corp which I think 10 would be a good cap there.
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So with ten sectors currently, 10 explorers, 10 science ships, 10 to 20 cruisers, and 20 to 30 escorts - and more sectors coming online every few years. Whew, that's a tall order.
 
HearthBorn said:
So with ten sectors currently, 10 explorers, 10 science ships, 10 to 20 cruisers, and 20 to 30 escorts - and more sectors coming online every few years. Whew, that's a tall order.
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Well it sounds like a tall order but I'm not overly worried, we can expect academy intake to increase quite a lot as more member races join and I believe the PP cost of expanding the Academy should logically drop as we gain more member races to represent the fact that we have larger responsibilities and many more potential applicants.

@OneirosTheWriter

Does the logic hold here can we expect PP costs to start to drop off on Academy expansion or am I being hopelessly optimistic? :)
 
"We are the Federation. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. You will learn to enjoy our hospitality, liberty and prosperity. Your technology and culture will be improved by our own. Resistance is futile."

:V
 
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Simon_Jester said:
So Nash (and various Federation figures in general) has become to the Cardassians what the stereotypical seductive Russian spy was to Americans in the Cold War.
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Fun fact; it's actually the Stasi (East German Intelligence Service) that employed seduction-tactics most extensively. They had specially trained 'Romeos' tasked with seducing various female secretaries, translators, archivists, clerks, and whatnot working in important NATO facilities in order to acquire intelligence.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I think the problem is that they are SO hung up on anti-xenos propaganda that aliens are taboo... Which in turn grossly exaggerates their appeal. There are probably more Cardassians who think Nash is sexy because it's against the rules to think she's sexy, than there are Cardassians who actually think Nash is sexy.

It also Did Not Help that one of their first attempts to get the better of the Federation diplomatically was foiled by a married Cardassian officer being seduced by one of our ship captains (who also happens to have been kicking their asses in other ways). Which was then turned into a public show trial in which she tearfully confessed to the judge that the "alien seductress took advantage of her weakness." Let me emphasize that this happened publicly. So now she's got a reputation for being able to seduce otherwise functional agents of the state into (GASP) betraying their duties to the Union!

And the Cardassians are like, obsessive, about the possibility of betrayal... which probably translates into a lot of Cardassian officials having idle fantasies about evil spies trying (and failing) to seduce them into betraying the State... AND NOW THAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING. The Seductive Alien Spy was already probably a prominent figure in Cardassian popular media. Now she has a face, and that face is blue, has antennae, and inexplicably makes battlecruisers go 'splat.'

So Nash (and various Federation figures in general) has become to the Cardassians what the stereotypical seductive Russian spy was to Americans in the Cold War. Only more so because (1) there's a real person acting as poster girl for the phenomenon, and (2) the Cardies went and publicized "STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO THE SEXINESS," which only makes it worse. It's sort of like trying not to think of a pink elephant.
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In short, they conducted the mother of all psywar ops against themselves entirely by accident.
 
HearthBorn said:
So with ten sectors currently, 10 explorers, 10 science ships, 10 to 20 cruisers, and 20 to 30 escorts - and more sectors coming online every few years. Whew, that's a tall order.
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It is a long term plan, could probably cut escorts to 1 to 2. Basically a standard fleet for the sector and I am hoping we get more instances of multiple planets in a sector. And then have a reserve of ships to move to where they are needed. But this would be a 20 year plan or so of where I want us to get to and give an idea of what needs to be built
 
I have been convinced that Trinnarv Xursh doesn't give much benefit. (I somehow got the idea that he reduces costs by 1/5. Yeah, wishful thinking.) So, changing my vote:

[X] Commodore Maynard Banks
[X][CREW] Explorer Corps Crew
[X][NAME] Discovery
[X][ASSIGN] Sol System
[X][EARTH] Allow the Excelsior build

[X][BUILD] 1 Excelsior, 1 Centaur-A, 1 Centaur-refit
-Build Excelsior in 40 Eridani A Berth A
-Refit the Centaur [Yukikaze] in Utopia Planetia 1mt berth in Q2
-Build Centaur-A in Utopia Planetia 1mt berth in Q2
 
Kelenas said:
Fun fact; it's actually the Stasi (East German Intelligence Service) that employed seduction-tactics most extensively. They had specially trained 'Romeos' tasked with seducing various female secretaries, translators, archivists, clerks, and whatnot working in important NATO facilities in order to acquire intelligence.
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They had the considerable advantage of being able to easily infiltrate into West Germany; an East German agent posing as a West German would be a very good cover.

Meanwhile, in the popular media back in the US, the image was "sexy Russian spy, typically female and trying to seduce Our Hero." She's attractive because she's transgressive, and plays off the idea of loyalty versus love.

Or you can have something like a James Bond movie where the roles are reversed and the attractive Russian spy changes sides because of the hero's charm. Again, playing off the same sense of transgression, of being literally in bed with the enemy, with both sides' loyalties being tested.

And if you think we had it bad, for the Cardassians it must be even worse.

pheonix89 said:
In short, they conducted the mother of all psywar ops against themselves entirely by accident.
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Ayup. I mean, to some extent this would have happened anyway. The Orions have already been doing it to the entire quadrant for longer than the Federation has even existed, I suspect. But it represents a sort of... structural weakness... in the self-imposed network of interlocking complexes, fixations, and motives that characterize the Cardassian state. There was always a crack in their psychological armor here, but the combination of Nash's actions and their own re-actions have split it wide open.
 
HearthBorn said:
So with ten sectors currently, 10 explorers, 10 science ships, 10 to 20 cruisers, and 20 to 30 escorts - and more sectors coming online every few years. Whew, that's a tall order.
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So just to be clear about the scope of what we are talking about, we currently have 4 Explorer class (without the Explorer Corps), 8 cruisers (all Constellations), 4 science ships, and 13 escorts. That currently leaves us short by 6 explorers, 6 science vessels, 2 to 12 cruisers, and 7 to 17 escorts. Every two years, at best, another sector comes online, with someone hitting 300. I expect we'll get two this year or at least next between Apinae and Indoria. That's another 2 explorers, 2 science ships, 2 to 4 cruisers, and 2 to four escorts. Can we crank out these numbers in 3 years, before the next sector comes online? Even as a long term plan, it seems a stretch.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I think the problem is that they are SO hung up on anti-xenos propaganda that aliens are taboo... Which in turn grossly exaggerates their appeal. There are probably more Cardassians who think Nash is sexy because it's against the rules to think she's sexy, than there are Cardassians who actually think Nash is sexy.

It also Did Not Help that one of their first attempts to get the better of the Federation diplomatically was foiled by a married Cardassian officer being seduced by one of our ship captains (who also happens to have been kicking their asses in other ways). Which was then turned into a public show trial in which she tearfully confessed to the judge that the "alien seductress took advantage of her weakness." Let me emphasize that this happened publicly. So now she's got a reputation for being able to seduce otherwise functional agents of the state into (GASP) betraying their duties to the Union!

And the Cardassians are like, obsessive, about the possibility of betrayal... which probably translates into a lot of Cardassian officials having idle fantasies about evil spies trying (and failing) to seduce them into betraying the State... AND NOW THAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING. The Seductive Alien Spy was already probably a prominent figure in Cardassian popular media. Now she has a face, and that face is blue, has antennae, and inexplicably makes battlecruisers go 'splat.'

So Nash (and various Federation figures in general) has become to the Cardassians what the stereotypical seductive Russian spy was to Americans in the Cold War. Only more so because (1) there's a real person acting as poster girl for the phenomenon, and (2) the Cardies went and publicized "STOP PAYING ATTENTION TO THE SEXINESS," which only makes it worse. It's sort of like trying not to think of a pink elephant.
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That's pretty much it In my opinion. The Cardassians are in the middle of a "Blue/Pink/Green" Scare.

Notice that the Legate wasn't specifically called out as a Xenophile, he was threatened with being "outed as xenophilic"

It's a great excuse if you want to start getting your rivals out of the way.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Well it sounds like a tall order but I'm not overly worried, we can expect academy intake to increase quite a lot as more member races join and I believe the PP cost of expanding the Academy should logically drop as we gain more member races to represent the fact that we have larger responsibilities and many more potential applicants.

@OneirosTheWriter

Does the logic hold here can we expect PP costs to start to drop off on Academy expansion or am I being hopelessly optimistic? :)
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So far the pp cost keeps increasing after every expansion. Waiting or more members joining might drop it again somewhat, but on balance we should expect the cost to continue to rise if we do expansions regularly.
 
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@AKuz, while I suspect Nash never wanted to go down in history as "the face that launched a thousand political purges," at least it's something. I guess there's no such thing as bad publicity? :D

ALSO:

I don't think we'll ever be able to guarantee every sector of our space an explorer-class flagship. That MAY happen but it may not. In the TNG-era Galaxies were rare and Ambassadors not much more common, for instance- and by that era the Excelsiors have effectively been demoted to cruisers.
 
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Techs to finish:
Shipboard computing
Starship Frames I
Warp Cores
Warp Core Safety
Deflector Shields
Explorer Design
 
Simon_Jester said:
They had the considerable advantage of being able to easily infiltrate into West Germany; an East German agent posing as a West German would be a very good cover.

Meanwhile, in the popular media back in the US, the image was "sexy Russian spy, typically female and trying to seduce Our Hero." She's attractive because she's transgressive, and plays off the idea of loyalty versus love.

Or you can have something like a James Bond movie where the roles are reversed and the attractive Russian spy changes sides because of the hero's charm. Again, playing off the same sense of transgression, of being literally in bed with the enemy, with both sides' loyalties being tested.

And if you think we had it bad, for the Cardassians it must be even worse.

Ayup. I mean, to some extent this would have happened anyway. The Orions have already been doing it to the entire quadrant for longer than the Federation has even existed, I suspect. But it represents a sort of... structural weakness... in the self-imposed network of interlocking complexes, fixations, and motives that characterize the Cardassian state. There was always a crack in their psychological armor here, but the combination of Nash's actions and their own re-actions have split it wide open.
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There's a reason why totalitarian governments tend not to last. Sure, their replacement might be just another totalitarian government, but that's beside the point.
 
AKuz said:
Notice that the Legate wasn't specifically called out as a Xenophile, he was threatened with being "outed as xenophilic"
It's a great excuse if you want to start getting your rivals out of the way.
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Indeed. Note that the Legate had been married for ~20 years, so there's no way he married his wife because that was the closest thing he could find to a Tellarite, as the Agent implies.
 
Though remember that Excelsiors have a long build time. I can look 4 years out and tell you the maximum* number of Excelsiors we'll have at that time, because that's how long they take to build. Even as more resources become available, first we have to build the extra Excelsior berths and then we have to start the ship builds. There will always be a lag.

*If some are destroyed; could be less!
 
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