I've been toying with the idea that we should make completion of the next model Explorer our next Ten Year Goal for Starfleet. We'll have to come up with something iin 2311, and when the Federation Council hears a goal they like they'll dump in resources to support it.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
He's asking why to make a pocket Excelsior when one could refit the actual Excelsiors for cruiser duty.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
A higher Science and Presence Explorer is the thing to propose. Any other capabilities are a bonus.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
We must protect our precious mater-antimater fluids.
- Location
- Panama City
That could be tricky since we need 3 years research at least in various fields, and the prototype takes 6 years of build time. We could be really pushing it to get it in commission in ten years if we don't have our ducks in a row first
Edit: That also doesn't include researching the actual design itself, which could take upwards of 5 years depending on FFs used
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Basically, if we make the Rennie, and then turn around and ask for another cruiser design within ten years, the Federation Council will sensibly ask us "if you need a bigger cruiser, why didn't you design one last time?" And the honest answer would be "we built the best possible ship that could operate from the same basing infrastructure as our legacy Constellations and Mirandas," but it wasn't big enough, we need bigger."
But that isn't going to fly well politically.
If we want a politically viable way to produce cruisers noticeably stronger than the Renaissance-class, we're probably going to have to do it in a way we can pitch as something OTHER than "whole new cruiser design," or wait until, oh, 2335 or so. We'd have a lot more luck getting a new escort or explorer class.
And if we absolutely have to have such a cruiser... our best bet is to produce a 'cruiserized' Excelsior.
But that isn't going to fly well politically.
If we want a politically viable way to produce cruisers noticeably stronger than the Renaissance-class, we're probably going to have to do it in a way we can pitch as something OTHER than "whole new cruiser design," or wait until, oh, 2335 or so. We'd have a lot more luck getting a new escort or explorer class.
And if we absolutely have to have such a cruiser... our best bet is to produce a 'cruiserized' Excelsior.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Ah. I don't have any objections to doing so, but the MCs are cheaper, and can fit in 2 mt berths.
Also, unlike the Connies, the Excelsiors will not count as Cruisers for a long time. Scale 7 Cruisers is far away, and 8 will be farther.
Proposal: Scale 5 or 4.5 Mediums. They would fit into 1.5 mt berths, and be cheaper.
Also, I'm in favor of cruisers dropping presence for science.
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm not opposed to having 1.5 million ton cruisers. But if we want those any time soon, then for political reasons we should be committing to that BEING our next cruiser. We're not going to get away with having multiple semi-redundant cruiser designs within a 5-10 year period of each other.
Also, remember that we want the Ambassadors to be not just better than the Excelsiors, but a LOT better. Enough so that there won't be arguments about whether it was worth it. That requires us to either make them a lot bigger (in which case they won't fit in even our three million ton berths) or push our technology a bit further.
Maybe we could push to modernize the Excelsiors based on what we know now? We've had a lot of success with our explorers, even in fleet battle, and they're definitely the pride of the service. If we say "we're planning to upgrade the Excelsiors," we could improve their science and defense and so on along with everything else.
Perhaps we could make a goal revolving around modernization of the fleet, rather than building lots of new ships. That will play better with the Council than just trying to have swarms of new ships while forgetting about our old ones.
Or a goal that revolves around defenses and integrating starbases and listening posts so that our space and our affiliates are secure from intrusion.
Yes. It would be doable (remember we'd be staking out this goal in 2311, so we have time to do explorer research before we even undertake the goal). But it'd be tough.
Also, remember that we want the Ambassadors to be not just better than the Excelsiors, but a LOT better. Enough so that there won't be arguments about whether it was worth it. That requires us to either make them a lot bigger (in which case they won't fit in even our three million ton berths) or push our technology a bit further.
Maybe we could push to modernize the Excelsiors based on what we know now? We've had a lot of success with our explorers, even in fleet battle, and they're definitely the pride of the service. If we say "we're planning to upgrade the Excelsiors," we could improve their science and defense and so on along with everything else.
Perhaps we could make a goal revolving around modernization of the fleet, rather than building lots of new ships. That will play better with the Council than just trying to have swarms of new ships while forgetting about our old ones.
Or a goal that revolves around defenses and integrating starbases and listening posts so that our space and our affiliates are secure from intrusion.
Last edited:
Who cares if something "counts as a cruiser" really? If the Federation has enough shipyards and the Academy is generating enough crew, then we can take Excelsiors and use them in the same function as cruisers even if they're "officially" explorers. If you have enough Excelsiors that you're assigning a couple of them to every key sector, who needs cruisers? Mind you, that's 20 years away at least.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
We could design an Excelsior refit that JUST CONVENIENTLY HAPPENS to have lower crew requirements, but the same tonnage and comparable or superior capabilities, maybe?
Again, maybe we can't do that now, but right now we've got a lot on our plate in terms of fleet modernization and construction. In five or ten years, maybe we can? We'd been talking about a round of Excelsior refits anyway.
Again, maybe we can't do that now, but right now we've got a lot on our plate in terms of fleet modernization and construction. In five or ten years, maybe we can? We'd been talking about a round of Excelsior refits anyway.
I don't have any trouble going to bigger than 3mt berths for the Ambassador. Remember, it's not like we need to have a transition where one day everything switches and we build only Ambassadors and never an Excelsior again.
I envision it that at first we'll only have one or two berths that can even product Ambassadors and we'll keep those going constantly and gradually expand, using excess resources to keep making Excelsiors. And as more big berths open up, we gradually taper off the Excelsiors and produce more and more Ambassadors.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
@OneirosTheWriter, how are you going to handle research overflow with the new tech tree? Like how "Cruiser Design Efficiency I" overflows into "Cruiser Design Efficiency II" despite being in different research categories now.
Previous posts on this subject that I could find:
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 286
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 286
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 286
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 287
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 288 (bottom part)
Previous posts on this subject that I could find:
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 286
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 286
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 286
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 287
Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 288 (bottom part)
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Thing about having the Ambassador be over three million tons is, all this greatly complicates the task of getting the project politically justified. You don't want to have to ask for the ship AND the berth to put it in during the same political snakepit.
My advice is to wait until the Cardassian situation clarifies (either we're confident they'll be sniping and only sniping for a few years, or we've fought a war and it's over). THEN we appeal for construction of a couple of new top-rate docks (as large as practical). THEN, after those are ready or approaching ready, we ask for permission to build a ship big enough to fill the docks.
Right now, the Excelsiors may not be GREAT frontline capital ships, but they're ADEQUATE. What's inadequate is all the supporting vessels that are filling in the gaps in our forces. We really, really need to focus on improving those supports.
THEN we can worry about a new super-duper capital ship type.
My advice is to wait until the Cardassian situation clarifies (either we're confident they'll be sniping and only sniping for a few years, or we've fought a war and it's over). THEN we appeal for construction of a couple of new top-rate docks (as large as practical). THEN, after those are ready or approaching ready, we ask for permission to build a ship big enough to fill the docks.
Right now, the Excelsiors may not be GREAT frontline capital ships, but they're ADEQUATE. What's inadequate is all the supporting vessels that are filling in the gaps in our forces. We really, really need to focus on improving those supports.
THEN we can worry about a new super-duper capital ship type.
Last edited:
- Location
- somewhere
[] Plan Ambassadors and Spies
-[X] Daystorm Institute: Early 24th Century Computing Installations
-[X] Utopia Planitia Design Group: Turn of the Century Explorer design
-[X] San Francisco Fleet Yards: Turn of the Century Starship Frames
-[X] 40 Eridani A Shipyards: Early 24th Century Warp Core Safety
-[X] Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: Early 24th Century Warp Cores
-[X] Tiger Team: Foreign Analysis - Cardassian Research
-[X] Admiral Lathriss: Lone Ranger Doctrine
-[X] Games & Theory Divison: Foreign Analysis - Romulan Research
-[X] Tellar Prime Academy of Mineral Science: ToC Mineral Technology
-[X] Spock: 2300s Xenopsychology
-[X] Starfleet Medical: Basic Turn of the Century Equipment
-[X] Starfleet Science Academy: Early 24th Century Message Security
-[X] Andorian Academy: Early 24th Century Deflector Shields
-[X] Vulcan Science Academy: Early 24th Century Long-Range Sensors
Except for essential growth techs focus is on techs that will help us against covert operations by the Cardassians or with designing the Abassador class.
If people can agree on one Offensive Doctrine to put a few points into (but possibly not actually unlock soon, we might need the team in foreign analysis - Cardassians) I will shift the Games & Theory team to that. Note that two turns of Tiger Team and one of Games & Theory are enough to finish the basic techs in Cardassian Research, so I expect us to switch the Games & Theory team to the Cardassians and use both the Tiger Team and Admiral Lathriss to get through the newly unlocked Lone Ranger Doctrine techs as quickly as possible from the year after next on.
If someone wants Starfleet medical on something else say so, I mostly put them on Personal because Briefvoice asked for it. If someone has a good argument on something else I will of course also listen, but may not agree.
Obviously subject to changes if the rules change again.
If rp do not suffice drop the Games & Theory team.
-[X] Daystorm Institute: Early 24th Century Computing Installations
-[X] Utopia Planitia Design Group: Turn of the Century Explorer design
-[X] San Francisco Fleet Yards: Turn of the Century Starship Frames
-[X] 40 Eridani A Shipyards: Early 24th Century Warp Core Safety
-[X] Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: Early 24th Century Warp Cores
-[X] Tiger Team: Foreign Analysis - Cardassian Research
-[X] Admiral Lathriss: Lone Ranger Doctrine
-[X] Games & Theory Divison: Foreign Analysis - Romulan Research
-[X] Tellar Prime Academy of Mineral Science: ToC Mineral Technology
-[X] Spock: 2300s Xenopsychology
-[X] Starfleet Medical: Basic Turn of the Century Equipment
-[X] Starfleet Science Academy: Early 24th Century Message Security
-[X] Andorian Academy: Early 24th Century Deflector Shields
-[X] Vulcan Science Academy: Early 24th Century Long-Range Sensors
Except for essential growth techs focus is on techs that will help us against covert operations by the Cardassians or with designing the Abassador class.
If people can agree on one Offensive Doctrine to put a few points into (but possibly not actually unlock soon, we might need the team in foreign analysis - Cardassians) I will shift the Games & Theory team to that. Note that two turns of Tiger Team and one of Games & Theory are enough to finish the basic techs in Cardassian Research, so I expect us to switch the Games & Theory team to the Cardassians and use both the Tiger Team and Admiral Lathriss to get through the newly unlocked Lone Ranger Doctrine techs as quickly as possible from the year after next on.
If someone wants Starfleet medical on something else say so, I mostly put them on Personal because Briefvoice asked for it. If someone has a good argument on something else I will of course also listen, but may not agree.
Obviously subject to changes if the rules change again.
If rp do not suffice drop the Games & Theory team.
Last edited:
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
If we want an easier goal, having a new science craft may be a more suitable timeline? It will be our oldest ship design in operation apart from the heavily refit Constitutions.
How good of a science 'escort' can we make?
How good of a science 'escort' can we make?
aledeth
The Flesh is Weak
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We do not design refits. We have no input into stats or anything else that comes from them. If a design can be refit, the GM decide what bonuses the refit will give, and when the refit option becomes available.
Last edited:
Or we could just have Games & Theory start the Defensive Doctrine Forward Defense, which is the one everyone seems to want.
Yes it's not their specialty, but... so what? They still get the +3 Admiral bonus and the +5 inspiration(because there's only one technology). They only lose +2. If we want the Defensive Doctrine and aren't interested in the Offensive Doctrine then let's work on the one people want to work on.
- Location
- somewhere
If people agree on doing that I'm fine with that as well.
To be honest, I want to move away from the top-heavy fleet around when we get the Ambassador into production. So I'm not too keen on spamming them. The cost is pretty awful. Once we have the Ambassador out there, we can justify building a mid-sized cruiser to cover defense while our explorers go exploring.
e: A dedicated science ship needs to be an upgrade on the 5-science Oberth.
e: A dedicated science ship needs to be an upgrade on the 5-science Oberth.
Last edited:
- Location
- Central Standard Time
I have been designing MCs that have 5 science, and could serve as a science ship.
Honestly, we need a lot more escort techs because stat over scale.
E: if we need an Oberth replacement soon, we can design one.
Personally, I'm waiting on techs. If a science ship is desired relatively soon, it's going to be a light or medium cruiser.
Last edited:
- Location
- Panama City
I can get a 3 6 2 3 2 3 with only 1 2nd level FF and a rock-solid reliability rating of 99.7%. Dropping combat and defense to 2 lets me boost presence to 5 while still having a 99.34% reliability. So, a pretty rock-solid transition from an Oberth to an Intrepid
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
If we an design a "lean Excelsior" that does what the Excelsior does on the same hull with less crew...
Perhaps we can persuade the GM to allow it as a refit. He is not exactly immune to persuasion and common sense.
It is still a reasonable thing for us to try to accomplish. And we have every reason to expect the Excelsior to be refittable, since canonically the design stayed in service for a hundred years or so and has been armed with everything from TOS-era phaser banks to quantum torpedoes.
- Location
- somewhere
A ship bridging the gap between Oberth and Intrepid should be a bit better than that and can wait a bit longer until we are closer to the middle of the gap. It will serve for 50 years or so so it should be a rock solid design.
The sheet currently doesn't model crew requirements so that's not (yet) possible.
Last edited:
- Location
- Central Standard Time
I stand corrected.
I'm in favor of medium generalists because of the defense response mechanic. We want high grade navigational deflectors to deal with negative space wedgies.
Deflectors are under defense btw.