We have escort designs for that, unless you want the Rennie?
Ideally, kinda yea. Until the next-gen 3mt Explorer design happens I think Explorers are always going to win the berth war, so something better than what we have should go there, and there's definitely some sour-grapes/sunk cost going on in my head that doesn't want to make a new Escort design the turn after we bought the Centaur Refit. Even though the Centaur refit is really jank compared to what we can make for the same size/cost.
 
This is a very good point so have a cruiser designed to be built in 1mT berths.

@OneirosTheWriter is this valid?

The actual weight of the ship is 986kT



Uh oh, it needs level 4 techs.

I personally prefer 900kt escorts than 1mt cruisers, since the former are quicker and cheaper to build.
 
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Uh oh, it needs level 4 techs.

I personally prefer 900kt escorts than 1mt cruisers, since the former are quicker and cheaper to build.
Yea, but there are political costs to consider with making a new Escort design while the Centaur Refit is already being developed and our current fleet of Light Cruisers just gets more and more obsolete. We've seen the pp prices of things change from Snakepit to Snakepit, and I'm sure a new Escort model will be much pricier compared to a new LC.

In other news the Ambassador is totally doable now if we wanted, but my model has 99.1% reliability which I'd like to be higher for 5YMs. It would free up the smaller 2.5mt berths for a bigger LC design since after Utopia Planitia finishes there's 4 3mt berths for use on Explorers.

Though I feel like a big reason it seems doable now is that Structural Integrity Field Efficiency and Efficacy both don't have any impact on reliability no matter how high their level in the latest spreadsheet. Is that WAD @OneirosTheWriter ?
 
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With Utopia Planitia finishing soon we'll have 7 berths >= 2.5mt and 2 more at Amarkia that we at the very least can use for repairs. Building an Explorer every year only requires 4 so we could use 3 for a larger cruiser design, building one of those each year as well. Also additional berths are supposed to be much cheaper at UP.
 
We could keep the Centaur refit and design a 900kt successor to the Oberth to supplement it.
 
Omake - Alexandra and the Connie-B - AKuz
(This post. In IC format)

Alexandria and the Connie-B

Alexandria Kuznetsova shoves half a slice of toast in her mouth, as she nods vigorously at her old friend, "Mmphh!" she says, encouragingly.

Anne Usha decides to ignore her friend's inadvertent chipmunk impression as she continues, "So in the end the Constitution-Bs aren't really a true refit. More like a streamlined version of the design."

"Then again, Starfleet only has Cheron. If we were planning a full refit program only one ship would benefit." Camille Alexander says, cutting into a sausage and jumping in surprise at the sudden grease spurt released towards him.

"Wed be bullin shiftps fer oniie teh eehrs." Alexandria swallows her toast down, "There is no upgrade room. We might as well be de-orbiting them for fun in a decade," says the Lieutenant Commander as she contemplates what it would look like to watch a dozen cruisers breaking up and dropping into an atmosphere at all once.

"Why not just sell them?" Han Seung looks around the group, waving around a piece of ham on a fork, smiling brightly at his girlfriend as the three Starfleet officers look at him blankly. "I'm not kidding; a lot of groups would kill to get their mitts on even a used discount Connie." He pictures himself sitting in the middle of a Constitution's bridge like a more entrepreneurial Kirk, and smiles.

Camille quickly swallows his breakfast sausage, "We can't do that!"

The other man shrugs, buttering a slice of toast, "Why not?"

"Because!" Alexandria and Camille say at the same time, then look at each other, in surprise.

"You can't just sell a Starship! It's just not done! Who knows what someone could do with a Starship?" Camille finishes, Alexandria nodding in agreement and stuffing another hunk of toast in her mouth.

"Then sell it to someone you trust." says the independant captain. "I'm just saying that If I were one of those poor bastards making runs out to Indoria and back, I'd want a big 'ol heavy cruiser watching over me. What happens to them in ten years would cost me less than losing an entire cargo tomorrow." He looks at his girlfriend for support.

"Hey. I just build the things. The Connie-Bs that we have up on the drawing boards are pretty efficient pieces of work. It's a shame that new designs we're kicking around will outclass them. But I don't like us introducing a new version of an ancient hull. " she leans over to steal a slice of fruit of Alexandria's plate, "It would be nice to see the Connie-Bs in use rather than scrapped in a decade if we did build them though."

"Hmmm" says Alexandria, chewing with her face scrunched up in thought ignoring her friend's blatant theft of part of her breakfast. "Hmmmmm" she says again more decisively, as she swallows heavily.

The Lieutenant Commander pokes her hash browns thoughtfully. "You know, the member fleets use some of the older older designs. Even a bunch of those Constellations that people keep telling me we should replace." She reaches out and the rest of the table instinctively covers their plates. Alexandria frowns unhappily and spears a slice of bacon. "Hey. Do you want to hear this thought or not?!"

Anne sighs and lifts her hands, followed slowly afterwards by the two men.

Kuznetsova sets down the chunk of bacon, "Thank you"

"Now. Some members already have Constitutions that they are familiar with, and aren't planning to retire soon," Alexandria cuts a piece of bacon in half and sets it on Anne's plate next to her beef sausage. "They'd be happy with a cheap addition to their fleets that let them replace an old Constellation or something with a better ship." She takes away a fork full of omelette from Usha's plate.

"Wouldn't the members feel insulted getting hand-me-downs?" Camille says watching Alexandria swap the other half-piece of bacon for a wedge of bagel on his plate.

Seung snorts goodnaturedly, "Ha. Doubt it. I know that the Vulcans are tired of their Soyuzs spending half the year in dry dock. And the other half in the hands of crews that would be terrified if they had emotions. They'd love to get their hands on a good ship only a decade old." He observes Alex reaching across the table to swap two pieces of fruit with a wary and resigned eye. "I'm pretty certain the Andorian Imperial Guard wouldn't mind either. It's not like we're talking about decrepit rustbuckets here." He pokes at his new slice of cantaloupe. "I mean Enterprise, was launched in what '93? And I bet the member fleets would go to war to get her. Age isn't everything"

Anne nods enthusiastically, "And by no means are the Connie-Bs bad designs. Not full Excelsior upgrades like Enterprise, but they are efficient, reliable designs that can be built fairly cheaply and quickly." she shrugs, "They just don't have the room for continued refitting in the future and our current designs would eclipse the Connie-Bs after a decade. They just aren't a good build for Starfleet in the long run."

"I'm telling you Anne, most planetary and system fleets would kill to get their hands on a reliable, easy to maintain fairly new build ship. These Connie Bees sound about perfect."

Alexandria giggles at Seung's pronunciation of Connie Bee. "Connie Bee. Put that way it sounds like a cute little bee friend." She takes a breath, and continues in a sing-songy cadence, "~ConnieBee! ConnieBee! ConnieBee won't you be friends with me! ConnieBee! ConnieBee! ConnieBee help me guard my hon-eee!~" she ignores the curious stares and turned heads in the restaurant as Camille politely claps. "Seriously though. I like the idea. People with higher pay grades than mine probably already thought of it. But I'll still pass it along."

"We don't get paid anything," Camille points out, quite reasonably.

"Yes. But they get paid quite a bit more nothing than us!"
 
This is a very good point so have a cruiser designed to be built in 1mT berths.
As far as I can tell there are two paths of approach we can choose when it comes to designing cruisers: Either we make them just small enough to build them in our 1mt shipyards, or we make them as large as needed to avoid Over-Scale penalty.

Both have their advantages. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm warming up to the second approach. If I'm not mistaken we're currently more or less agreed that our future cruisers should be highly capable generalists, much like the explorers. A larger ship should definitely have an easier time with that.

Specialisation is for insects. And escorts.
 
Uh oh, it needs level 4 techs.

I personally prefer 900kt escorts than 1mt cruisers, since the former are quicker and cheaper to build.

I could shave it down to 3s by taking a fudge factor elsewhere and having the weight come in at exactly 1mt. It's just not worth the hit to reliability to quible over a single extra year of design time. Given that the process goes.

Design > Prototype > Actual build with the two longest steps generally being the prototyping and then the actual first ship build I'm not overly concerned about having a year or two longer on the design time. That said we do need something quickly for the war against the Cardassians because that's all but inevitable at this point.

We could keep the Centaur refit and design a 900kt successor to the Oberth to supplement it.

My personal view is that specialised ships are a bad choice. We don't get to send them on missions they are specialised for due to the nature of the mechanics underlying everything so we have to make work horses that fit in every where unless we're specifically building a ship for war.
 
As far as I can tell there are two paths of approach we can choose when it comes to designing cruisers: Either we make them just small enough to build them in our 1mt shipyards, or we make them as large as needed to avoid Over-Scale penalty.

Both have their advantages. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm warming up to the second approach. If I'm not mistaken we're currently more or less agreed that our future cruisers should be highly capable generalists, much like the explorers. A larger ship should definitely have an easier time with that.

Specialisation is for insects. And escorts.
I lean more towards 1.8mt cruisers than 1mt cruisers. Each one has to be worth the 3 year build time.
 
We could keep the Centaur refit and design a 900kt successor to the Oberth to supplement it.
Almost all the Oberth successor designs I've seen so far are just the Centaur but better, so it'd be less a supplement and more of a replacement.

As far as I can tell there are two paths of approach we can choose when it comes to designing cruisers: Either we make them just small enough to build them in our 1mt shipyards, or we make them as large as needed to avoid Over-Scale penalty.

Both have their advantages. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm warming up to the second approach. If I'm not mistaken we're currently more or less agreed that our future cruisers should be highly capable generalists, much like the explorers. A larger ship should definitely have an easier time with that.

Specialisation is for insects. And escorts.
It's definitely a more attractive way of doing things, especially with the Lone Ranger doctrine. The fact that we can design a 1.8mt Excelsior Clone with only 1 year of research is quite enticing to me, but it'd still be 9 years before the first build is done if we started the project next Snakepit.
 
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2306.Q4 - Amarkia Pt 2
Amarkia, Part 2

"Report!" snaps Nash ka'Sharren as she turns her back on the slowly expanding storm of exotic particles and heat.

"Self-destructed," reports Mrr'Shan, looking over tactical. "Not their core. Separate fusion device. Shuttle was destroyed also by a fusion device transported just in front of its path. Our transporter interference prevented them from simply beaming the device aboard the shuttle, bought us time."

"Mine and self-destruct same type of device?"

"Call it a ninety-nine percent chance based on the signature."

The buzz of an incoming intercom comes from ka'Sharren's command chair. She stabs a button on the chair. "Bridge."

"Captain, Chief sh'Faroth in Transporter Room One here. I have a lot of very angry diplomats demanding answers."

An audible sigh of relief sweeps across the bridge crew.

"Hold tight, Chief, I'm on my way," replies ka'Sharren. "Commander Mrr'Shan, bring us into formation with the Riala and Hilindia, ship to Red Alert, shields and weapons ready to cook. You have the conn."

"Aye, Captain."

"One last thing: no one mentions the Cardassian lifesign to anyone. Am I clear?"

After getting a chorus of acknowledgements, Nash turns away from the bridge and heads up towards the turbolift. The doors slide open to admit her. "Turbolift, Transporter Room One." She hears the doors slide shut behind her the the soft hum of the turbolift take over. And then she hears a loud buzzing noise that echoes off the turbolift walls. "Gah!"

"Nash, what did you do!?"

The Captain turns around to find herself face to face with Izzidiera. The Apiata's antennas are half-raised and twitching with agitation. Her cheeks puff out and her fists are balled up on either side of the hips that flare out from a waspish waist. "Queen Izzidiera, you are supposed to be in the observation lounge."

"I was, and we all observed someone blowing up the Ambassadors!"

Nash allows herself a glare for the imperious Apiata lady. "Only their shuttle was blown up, the ambassadors are-"

"What is the meaning of this?"

Nash spins about to find an Amarki diplomat streaming out of the transporter room across the corridor, blood in her eye and hand on her ceremonial blade. Nash squares her shoulders and gestures back to the transporter room. "My motives were pure, Ambassador. Come back inside the transporter room, I will explain to everyone."

"This has better be good..." Poor sh'Faroth is fending off a bombardment of questions from a dozen angry dignitaries, his hands up as he backs away slowly. Nash glances to the ambassador who is just reentering the room behind her, Izzidiera in tow. "He won't tell us anything," says the Ambassador. "I was about to the bridge to get answers. Or challenge you to a duel."

A sigh comes from deep within as Nash steps up onto the transport podium. "Everyone! Your attention please!" Sudden silence falls on the room as everyone turns around. A dozen sets of eyes focus on the rank badge on Nash's shoulders. "Just a moment of silence for all the answers you desire."

Nash pauses and, despite glares that would melt starship hull, gets her moment of silence. "There was a freighter running with a sensor spoofing scheme; that is, a system that creates a false senor impression rather than simply returning nothing. When our sensors detected anomalous readings, we used an overt technique for penetrating the spoofing, and determined the freighter to be an Orion Syndicate vessel."

"Impossible!" blurts the diplomat who had accosted you in the corridor. "Admiral Lathriss closely scanned every vessel before we deployed, we would have noticed such spoofing."

"Ambassador Lodour, I have the utmost respect for the talents of my Amarkian counterparts and their ships," says Nash before putting up a hand in her direction. "But we have superior sensors, and Commander Zaardmani is the best sensor operator in the quadrant."

Lodour rears back, eyes wide. "You dare?!"

"I dare," retorts Nash, "Because microseconds after your patters vacated the shuttle, a fusion mine teleported into its path blew your shuttles into fine powder. We disabled the freighter's warp drive, but it self-destructed right after."

The mental gear-shift in the ambassadors as they take in that news is so obvious Nash swears its audible. A few whispers are the only noise for several long seconds.

One of the Federation dignitaries, Councillor Langford of Earth, swears loudly. "With all of Amarkia in front-row seats..."

"This makes no difference to the ratification," Lodour adds. "Even if we were all killed, it might disrupt the forms, but the Amarki have voted. We are members of the Federation. It is too late to forestall."

"The Orion Syndicate is known for many things but suicide is not one of them," says one of the prospective Amarki Councillors in a slow, careful tone.

Nash nods along. "Believe me, I'm aware."

"Friends, we must not speculate now," comes a voice calmer than an inland sea and the confidence of a mountain peak. Everyone turns to face Councillor Stesk, arrested by his voice. "What is important is to appear before the anxious billions and reassure all that we are alive and well, and that the will of the Amarkian people has not been forestalled.

Agreement fills the air as dignitaries listen to their elder statesman. Nash shoots him a grateful look before speaking up. "This is best done from the bridge. If you please, everyone, the turbolift is just across the corridor." However, Nash hangs back in the transporter room as the civilians file out, and she holds up Stesk and Langford. They look at the Captain quizzically, moreso when she gestures them in close and lowers her voice. "Councillors, I have ordered it made secret, but you should know. We detected a Cardassian lifesign aboard."

Stesk and Langford, who even Nash knows are by no means natural allies in the Council, exchange a long look. Finally Stesk speaks, "You chose wisely. Do not commit any of this to any form of communication that can be intercepted. Deliver it to Starfleet Command and the Council in person."

"Stesk, I know you said we should not speculate," says Langford. "But it's clear the Amarki were not the intended recipients of this message."

"That would not be speculation, old friend, but a logical extrapolation," says Stesk. "After you, good Captain."

===================

A few days later the Enterprise and Riala settle into high Earth Orbit over Paris. It has been a tense voyage, spending the whole time looking for long-range Cardassian marauders. Zaardmani continues to pore over the sensor readings of the Syndicate vessel, trying to find a way to conclusively prove the presence of Cardassians among the crew, but no amount of enhancement rewards him with an air-tight result. It remains thus a secret known only to the senior bridge crew and two Federation Councillors. One thing he has discovered, however, is that it is very likely the Syndicate crew never knew that their mission carried such a violent abort mode.

Nash spends time mulling over Langford's words, but it doesn't take long for her to see the truth of them. While the Amarki grow more determined with each passing day, the effect among the Affiliates has been the opposite. Doubts about the strength of the Federation, their ability to truly compete with the Cardassians, is an open topic. Izzidiera goes so far as to ask how Nash intends to keep her safe. When Nash asks Stesk about it, he smiles and tells her that every culture he has ever met has some variant of the phrase, "Too good to be true." The promise the Federation makes of friendship, cooperation, and safety sounds like its too good to be true. It doesn't take much to start people wondering whether they're being sold on a pipe dream.

The Councillor goes on to say, "There is a paradoxical condition among many sentient species, that makes people believe that something that comes with a clear cost is preferable. Life as a Cardassian client is objectively worse than life as a member of the Federation, but I believe that to many it satisfies their need to make 'hard choices."

As she files onto the ramp of a waiting shuttlecraft after the fifth thorough security sweep, Nash finds herself dwelling on Stesk's words. When she was a younger, greener officer, Nash always thought the old Vulcan was anti-Starfleet. No one will accuse her of having mellowed, but she does like to think she has grown wiser. She now finds she has a lot of time for the Councillor, even when she disagrees with him, as she can see that his actions and her actions stem ultimately from the same place. A love of the Federation, its ideals, and its potential.

"You know, I still don't understand why the Federation isn't based in Andoria," mutters Izzidiera as she also boards the shuttle.

"I ask myself that as well," replies Nash with a grin. "But you should be grateful. Paris' weather is much nicer than most of Andoria's is for Apiata."

An hour later they are landing before the Federation Council building near the heart of old Paris with an honour guard of Starfleet officers lining the way, plus an absolute storm of waiting journalists. Nash ka'Sharren has the great privilege of escorting the Federation affiliate dignitaries into the Council chambers. She sees the Old Lady herself, Admiral Kahurangi, at the side of the Federation President, which actually interests her a touch more than the fact she is in the same room as the Federation President. She also sees another Andorian zhen in a Rear Admiral's uniform in Kahurangi's retinue, who is watching Nash very, very closely.

About a half-hour of speeches precedes the signing of the Articles of Federation. Speeches which Nash, in all honesty, mostly tunes out. All apart from the Speech given by Leaniss, who gives a brief account of her part in the first meeting of the Amarkians and the Federation, and the good impression made by Captain ka'Sharren. Izzidiera immediately starts demanding all the details, which takes her attention for the rest of the speeches.

But soon enough the new Councillors of the half-dozen major Amarkian worlds come up to a podium with the President and sign their names and swear their oaths. Rapturous applause almost shakes the old building down around them, but it holds. For those within the Federation, the near slaughter of the ambassadors is forgotten in the historic moment. A fifth member has joined the Federation. A golden age has truly begun. Billions across the Federation and her affiliates watch the signing and look to the future.

[End Part 2]

===============================================

Amarki is now a full Member of the Federation.

Resources provided by the Amarkians increases to 50br, 25sr, 5rp, 10pp
The +0.05 affiliate level intakes are improved to O-1, E-1, T-1, with an additional .25 each as Explorer Corps.

The Amarkian Station is now Starbase 5. Leas Akaam outpost is placed under Starfleet control a a logistics hub for the CBZ.

The Amarkian Arsenal remains in Amarkian hands to service their member world fleet. However it remains available for explorer repairs if the berths are not otherwise occupied.

Amarkia is a martial culture. Access to their fleets during war time is automatically available.

With the additional of a fifth full member, the Maximum Combat Level increases by 20. Expend further increases in Defence requirements.

As part of the negotiated entry into the Federation, a number of Amarkian Forces high-ranking officers will be commissioned into Starfleet to take command of the Sector Fleet and Starbase. An immediate increase of 2 Officers, 1 Enlisted, 1 Technician occurs.

One of their Research and Design Teams is being donated to Starfleet's Ship Design Bureau. Please select one from the following:

[ ][RD] Admiral Lathriss, Defensive Doctrine, Skill 3
[ ][RD] Pan-Amarkia Goods, Personal Tech, Skill 2
[ ][RD] Amarkian High Energy Lab, Warp Technology, Skill 2
[ ][RD] Amarkian Arsenal - Riala Team, Ship Design (Explorer), Skill 3
 
It's definitely a more attractive way of doing things, especially with the Lone Ranger doctrine. The fact that we can built a 1.8mt Excelsior Clone with only 1 year of research is quite enticing to me, but it'd still be 8.5 years before the first build is done.
A hypothetical 1.8mt cruiser would be something we do in place of the Rennie. Not something we do to deal with the current crisis. Much like the Rennie it simply wouldn't be ready in time.

And with concern to the 1mt shipyards... for the time being they'll be busy building escorts and Constellations (or Connie-Bs I guess, though I once more stress that IMHO this would be a serious mistake). Afterwards our fleet will probably have grown enough that we can keep them busy building new classes of escorts.
 
SF Fleet Yards already is a skill 3 Explorer team though. A 2nd one seems a little redundant to me.

My preference is either Lathriss or the Personal Tech team, leaning towards Personal Tech.

You need a research team to work on the ship design and another to work on the general explorer ship technology. So we'll need two teams unless we're going to put ship research on hold whilst designing a new vessel.
 
"You know, I still don't understand why the Federation isn't based in Andoria," mutters Izzidiera as she also boards the shuttle.

"I ask myself that as well," replies Nash with a grin. "But you should be grateful. Paris' weather is much nicer than most of Andoria's is for Apiata."

Shit like this makes me want to file an official protest with the Federation Council asking for a mild reprimand of our Andorian brothers and sisters.

...

That's about as aggressive I'm willing to go in a Star Trek quest.
 
[X][RD] Amarkian Arsenal - Riala Team, Ship Design (Explorer), Skill 3

We can quite easily design a vessel that would blow an Excelsior out of the skies in basically all categories with explorer tech right now as it is.

It will be expensive but I think it's okay for us to have a few very expensive and capable explorers to use as trouble shooters.

I think we should go ahead and take the research team and commision an explorer design project and put Rialas team on it. We can work on design a highly refined saucer and secondary section with this project for future ship designs once we've researched more explorer based tech improvements as well.
 
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