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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Briefvoice said:
Of course, that fails to account for the "deterrence value" of border zone forces and that they are supposed to intercept the nastiest and trickiest events.
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and <300 level affiliates. We may not be mandated to protect and support them, but I'm confident that it's frowned upon if we don't respond to events around or concerning them.
- LBZ: Laio, Tauni (yes, they apparently are the responsibility of the LBZ according to a prior captain's log, and are about to be 300+ major affiliates anyway)
- CBZ/Ferasa: Ashidi (unclear which sector fleet would be responsible for escorting diplomats/trade ships to the Ashidi - likely a new sector/BZ in the coming years)

In fact, I'd include neutrals in that as well. We know how critical such events are for us, especially for countering rival major powers.
- SBZ: Sydraxians, Yrillians, Gretarians (not critical itself, but linked to Sydraxians)
- LBZ: Licori
- Ferasa: Lamarck (not sure if important after Hishmeri threat gone), Dawair (not a neutral, but a polity we're maneuvering to break off the Ashalla Pact)

Expansionist ho!

Briefvoice said:
@OneirosTheWriter did a very clever thing by creating the Gabriel Border Zone. It's the main thing keeping us from flooding sectors with more event responders, and it provides a constant tension in deciding how much to commit there.
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And hopefully it remains that single "main thing"!

Oneiros is constantly finding ways to throw new threats and distractions at us to keep our forces spread thin in our burgeoning Federation. To the point that the player base was complaining in 2315 about how we were dealing with crisis after crisis without breaks and an increasing annoyance at Council complaints when we didn't have enough ships available for event response then.
 
lbmaian said:
Which ship are you referring to? 500kt berths can't build modern warships unless they're expanded in size or a 500kt warship is designed
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If they're building anything bigger than a cargo ship, it's in a 1mt berth. I would imagine thos Auxiliaries would get pushed out for immediate wartime builds.

lbmaian said:
I would actually like a solution along these lines. Whatever the sweet spot is for frigates, target that tonnage and the required berth space, which I figure is likely 1mt.

The problem is that's a LOT of a member fleets we need to vote to improve their shipyards, one by one, year after year. That's gonna require some long-term coordination from us. It's at times like these that I wish we still had the Sousa Deal.
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All depends on what you want. I really don't recommend the 500kt ships; they're barely better than a Miranda and have worse S, but they'll get put in Skirmish anyway and ruin our minesweeper checks. Their D is fine, but if winning Skirmish is related to how much damage your ships do they suck because the minimal C and S means their enemies will have extra Evasion and will cut into it's Evasion, and it won't be doing as much damage as a proper skirmisher should.

I would either say the 700kt or an 800kt 80/55 design I just built that has +1 S/L over it. Either is fine but the extra S is likely a good investment. If I had an extra 50kt to play with to get S2 the 500kt might be tolerable, but as it is it's a stinker.
 
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Forgothrax said:
If they're building anything bigger than a cargo ship, it's in a 1mt berth. I would imagine thos Auxiliaries would get pushed out for immediate wartime builds.
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You may find my Boldly Go Shipyard sheet of interest for this discussion. Among Federation members we have:

3 400kt berths (Can you believe you can build a Patroller-A in those things?)
15 500kt berths
18 600 kt berths
2 700 kt berths
2 750 kt berths
53 1 mt berths... and all the rest are larger

The takeaway being that there would be some advantage in a 500 or 600 kt frigate, but if you're going bigger than that then you might as well go all the way to 1mt as far as berth size is concerned.
 
Forgothrax said:
If they're building anything bigger than a cargo ship, it's in a 1mt berth.
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IIRC cargo ships, engineering ships, and prospectors are all based off the Ranger hull, and civilian ships are around the same size or smaller. Makes sense as they all have 2yr build times; all other auxiliaries have 3yr build times (and 4yr for super-freighters).

I would imagine thos Auxiliaries would get pushed out for immediate wartime builds.
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...actually come to think about it, this is wrong, which in turn means that all those 500kt berths may not be available for warship builds.

Why? Because the triple whammy of a wartime economy, increased ship supply logistics, and logistics losses from raiding all mean that it's very likely many of these berths will still be churning out cargo ships. Remember how the Amarki had to do "1 Civilian Freighter (War), 1 Cargo Ship (War)" builds when they moved to limited mobilization?

All depends on what you want. I really don't recommend the 500kt ships; they're barely better than a Miranda and have worse S, but they'll get put in Skirmish anyway and ruin our minesweeper checks. Their D is fine, but if winning Skirmish is related to how much damage your ships do they suck because the minimal C and S means their enemies will have extra Evasion and will cut into it's Evasion, and it won't be doing as much damage as a proper skirmisher should.

I would either say the 700kt or an 800kt 80/55 design I just built that has +1 S/L over it. Either is fine but the extra S is likely a good investment. If I had an extra 50kt to play with to get S2 the 500kt might be tolerable, but as it is it's a stinker.
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This is all in the context of all the recent role revamp discussion, which included the notion of role restrictions, like specifying what the primary and secondary battle roles of a profile/class are.

It's the only way we can design a dedicated vanguard frigate. This is a ship class where science, presence, and reaction stats are pretty much dump stats. Its lack of event response capability does mean that this ship has to be dirt cheap enough to be worth it to build.

edit: roles not rolls...
 
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OneirosTheWriter said:
The Egillah class is a prime candidate for mothballing as the Ked Paddah contract post-war, btw. Possibly the Almud class as well, since they have a comprehensive fleet of their new model ships.
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So potentially half their battle line and a third of their escorts - that will save them a lot on support, if that is the issue. Free up a lot of crew for other purposes as well.
 
Leila Hann said:
Wonder if they'd be interested in selling them to some of our other affiliates.
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Hmm.

Well, they're straight-5s, 220br/180sr, 5/5/5 crew. I suppose the Tauni or Laio would be tripping over themselves to operate one.
Gaeni already have their Tech-Explorer prototype in production, with only a year or so to go.
The Vulcans are more interested in an Excelsior.
The Betazoids ... hmm, may be interested.
 
OneirosTheWriter said:
Well, they're straight-5s, 220br/180sr, 5/5/5 crew.
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Wow really? Not as capable as an Excelsior-A but really damn close, even has slightly better hull too. Slightly cheaper on the br but a bit more expensive on sr while requiring 1 less officer to crew. Not a bad ship. I wouldn't want to build one, since the Excelsior-A is superior in most aspects, but if I was a member world I would certainly want one if they were selling.
 
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lbmaian said:
This reminds me...

@OneirosTheWriter, can you give us an update on the Orion shipyards? They were omitted the last time you gave us an update on "Member World & Key Affiliate Shipyards".
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Alukk - Union Fleet Yards [1x2000kt, 1x1000kt, 2x800kt], Colhane Gennet Yards [2x600kt]
Celos - Celos Duranium Works [1x1000kt, 2x600kt]
Akola - Akola Orbital Industry [1x1000kt, 1x600kt]
Broken Chains - Redspire Fleet Yards [1x1000kt, 1x600kt]
Duaba - Indi Adamo & Daughters Yards [2x800kt]

Vastly underutilised atm, Orion Union economy is still recovering, and they are clamping down on corporate construction while they pass legislation to strengthen the control of their merchant marine over these ships.
 
OneirosTheWriter said:
Hmm.

Well, they're straight-5s, 220br/180sr, 5/5/5 crew. I suppose the Tauni or Laio would be tripping over themselves to operate one.
Gaeni already have their Tech-Explorer prototype in production, with only a year or so to go.
The Vulcans are more interested in an Excelsior.
The Betazoids ... hmm, may be interested.
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The big question is whether it would be prudent of the Ked Peddah to sell last generation warships to polities that they have only known for a very short time.
 
OneirosTheWriter said:
Alukk - Union Fleet Yards [1x2000kt, 1x1000kt, 2x800kt], Colhane Gennet Yards [2x600kt]
Celos - Celos Duranium Works [1x1000kt, 2x600kt]
Akola - Akola Orbital Industry [1x1000kt, 1x600kt]
Broken Chains - Redspire Fleet Yards [1x1000kt, 1x600kt]
Duaba - Indi Adamo & Daughters Yards [2x800kt]

Vastly underutilised atm, Orion Union economy is still recovering, and they are clamping down on corporate construction while they pass legislation to strengthen the control of their merchant marine over these ships.
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:o That's an insane amount of berths. More than any other non-tier 1 power in fact, even the Apiata!

I bet most of them were originally hypercorp shipyards that got nationalized (or if still technically outlawed, de facto controlled by government). Indeed, I bet that before the civil war, only Alukk's Union Fleet Yards and Broken Chain's Redspire Fleet Yards were essentially government-controlled shipyards, although probably still fronted as a hypercorp as required by law or something.

Too bad I don't see any evidence they captured Syndicate shipyards way out in the space boonies.

And yeah, I can see why they're renting out berth space and are no doubt looking for more such business opportunities. Once they get their economics in order, they're gonna be an industrial powerhouse.
 
OneirosTheWriter said:
Alukk - Union Fleet Yards [1x2000kt, 1x1000kt, 2x800kt], Colhane Gennet Yards [2x600kt]
Celos - Celos Duranium Works [1x1000kt, 2x600kt]
Akola - Akola Orbital Industry [1x1000kt, 1x600kt]
Broken Chains - Redspire Fleet Yards [1x1000kt, 1x600kt]
Duaba - Indi Adamo & Daughters Yards [2x800kt]

Vastly underutilised atm, Orion Union economy is still recovering, and they are clamping down on corporate construction while they pass legislation to strengthen the control of their merchant marine over these ships.
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I'm guessing there's too much logistical chaos right now for them to use all those berths? Otherwise, we should just be hiring them to solve our merchant fleet problems.
 
Leila Hann said:
I'm guessing there's too much logistical chaos right now for them to use all those berths? Otherwise, we should just be hiring them to solve our merchant fleet problems.
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I don't think Starfleet is allowed to negotiate for such berths until they're ratified as full Federation members. Although I've seen Federation ships be repaired in their berths before.

That does make me think the development faction is strongly considering them for their first membership ratification choice (the other strong option being the Caldonians). Orions have a shitload of infrastructure and will be inward looking for a long time to address their economy - strong development concerns. They'll probably be a mix of developmentalists by circumstance and mercantalists by history.

OneirosTheWriter said:
Who needed shipyards in the Space Boonies, they were building them right there at Celos and Akola under everyone's noses lol. Also in Yrillian yards.
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Huh I thought ASTF found and destroyed a hidden shipyard or two, but I can't source it - all I can find are destroyed outposts and stations. But damn, the Orion Union was so amazingly weak as a federal government if they couldn't even keep track of cruiser-scale ships. I mean, it's like the Arcadian house fleet system but worse!
 
i say we let the orions focus on the econ for a while (our and there own)
i would like too some shift to the north sometime soon
that looks like it could be trouble
 
OneirosTheWriter said:
Hmm.

Well, they're straight-5s, 220br/180sr, 5/5/5 crew. I suppose the Tauni or Laio would be tripping over themselves to operate one.
Gaeni already have their Tech-Explorer prototype in production, with only a year or so to go.
The Vulcans are more interested in an Excelsior.
The Betazoids ... hmm, may be interested.
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Could we get the stats of their other ships as well? Tauni and Laio would be nice spots for them to go to though, maybe one each and they keep the other two as a reserve for now and then sell them later.
 
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