- Location
- USA
We also have the hospital ships that need to be built once the prototype is finished so more berths will help there. We also want some 2mt berths for super freighter construction
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- Location
- Australia
Who is 'we'?
All I know is there request was for 3 new AUX berths. and apparently we are disregarding the vote which showed the majority wants to make up the deficit with general yards. If the vote was cancelled, I guess the request was as well. so the good news is we don't need any AUX yards at all.
- Location
- USA
We are still facing a shortage of cargo ships of all types so expanding the aux yards is a way to work on that. In addition Starfleet medical was given the budget for 10 new hospital ships including the prototype so we will need additional berths to build those.
My own preference is to get a mix of 1mt and 2mt berths for the aux yards so that they can build any ship that they need and not borrow a berth if they want to construct a super freighter or if we get future aux ships larger than 1mt.
- Location
- Central Standard Time
The issue is that I'm not sure that 2 mt berths are a good investment now.
Maybe one, for a super freighter build series, but I don't see us having any other 2 mt auxiliaries within a decade. And even if we do get some, all we need is one for the prototype, and we can use the prototype build time to construct more 2 mt berths.
That the update where we face political pressure to fix our problem was delisted doesnt mean the problem disappeared. We ignored ships that cant shot at people the whole Quest so far because the relevant mechanics werent developed far enough to punish us for it, we will need to invest in catch up now that they are.
I can see the argument for 2mt general berths but not for 2mt aux.
Federation-wide, counting members and Starfleet, we have 53 1mt berths and only 21 2mt or larger berths. (Plus 6 oddball 1.5mt berths.) The changeover to a >1mt regular cruiser is going to be rough when it happens.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah. I'd rather just take a little longer, a year or two tops, to fully solve our logistics crisis by not building two-megaton ships in dedicated auxiliary berths. Better than having a bunch of unnecessarily large berths that are presumably more expensive. when we're done with a limited superfreighter production run.
If it turns out to be politically easier to build the bigger berth for some silly reason, go for it, but otherwise, no.
The shipping lanes would have to be stupidly, robotically, ridiculously inflexible, as in literal "space roads." The mines would have to be so autonomous as to constitute independent drone ships in their own right, So far as we can tell neither of those is the case.
And the Cardassians, who we're talking about, in all probability don't have cloaking devices, and even if they did could come up with more effective ways to use them than offensive mining.
This is merely a nuisance for defensive mine warfare. For offensive mine warfare it's crippling.
There's a reason the only really successful offensive naval mining campaigns in history involved air-dropped mines, because they can be laid quickly with minimal direct risk to one's own forces.
Basically, the argument of yours that I'm quoting seems to reduce to "mines are silly, so anything goes, and it's wrong to try to use logic to say offensive mine warfare wouldn't work well!" I... don't really have a lot of regard for that argument. Am I misunderstanding?
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*The Deep Space Nine wormhole minefield is an obvious exception to this rule, but it is ALSO just about the most perfect, literal example I can think of where you have a 'space road' that can be blocked with a small number of mines.
Well, except under specific conditions when it'd be in-character, which it would be for some of them.
So yeah, sure, you're welcome to them if you have a use for them. Out of curiosity, what does it mean to describe the game as "Mafia-style," and where is this going to be going on? If it's not play-by-post or something similar, I'm not sure I can realistically participate, sadly.
If it turns out to be politically easier to build the bigger berth for some silly reason, go for it, but otherwise, no.
The shipping lanes would have to be stupidly, robotically, ridiculously inflexible, as in literal "space roads." The mines would have to be so autonomous as to constitute independent drone ships in their own right, So far as we can tell neither of those is the case.
And the Cardassians, who we're talking about, in all probability don't have cloaking devices, and even if they did could come up with more effective ways to use them than offensive mining.
I'm dismissing offensive mining on the basis of a known fact: laying a minefield takes weeks or months of work by engineering ships that are presumably reasonably well suited to the task. It is not a task that can be completed in minutes or hours.* It cannot be done quickly or on a whim.
This is merely a nuisance for defensive mine warfare. For offensive mine warfare it's crippling.
There's a reason the only really successful offensive naval mining campaigns in history involved air-dropped mines, because they can be laid quickly with minimal direct risk to one's own forces.
Basically, the argument of yours that I'm quoting seems to reduce to "mines are silly, so anything goes, and it's wrong to try to use logic to say offensive mine warfare wouldn't work well!" I... don't really have a lot of regard for that argument. Am I misunderstanding?
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*The Deep Space Nine wormhole minefield is an obvious exception to this rule, but it is ALSO just about the most perfect, literal example I can think of where you have a 'space road' that can be blocked with a small number of mines.
The only memorable characters I have that in any recognizable sense "mine" for this game are Chatsworth and Halkh (expies of characters from other settings), Leslie (who's a canon character I turned into an old-salt yard-dog in his old age)... Hm, the only ones with any real originality to them are Bessle (a bit) and Enterprise (a fair amount). You're welcome to any of them, though I'd fondly hope you won't portray them behaving disgracefully because that sort of thing makes me sad.
Well, except under specific conditions when it'd be in-character, which it would be for some of them.
So yeah, sure, you're welcome to them if you have a use for them. Out of curiosity, what does it mean to describe the game as "Mafia-style," and where is this going to be going on? If it's not play-by-post or something similar, I'm not sure I can realistically participate, sadly.
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- Location
- USA
I guess part of it is I would like heavy industry to make the aux build times lower so having 2 2mt berths would allow them to have the time reduction applied.
The thing is though is we will know in advance when that time comes and will need a few years of research and another 4+ years for the prototype so we have time to correct that. We can get a lot of cruiser berths in the 7 years it will take until production from the start of a cruiser project
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Well, right now our 1mt berths are actually 1.1mt berths, as a result of having completed this tech:
Hopefully we complete the next one before we need >1.1mt berths?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah, but it'd be nice to be at least partially prepared in advance. Among other things because I suspect the member worlds will want a few workable examples to copy from before THEY build two-megaton berths, and it generally takes them more time to muster the resources to do things like that, whereas we can generally do them on relatively short notice.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
From a narrative point of view, if Starfleet starts designing a cruiser >1mt, wouldn't we notify all members to make them aware of this? Giving them the time to upgrade 1mt berths?
I've been finding the offensive mine use discussion pretty amusing because I actually had some offensive mine use in my Heroes of the Empire omake, but that was more in the nature of a 'trick' than a standard tactic. Something that could have been easily avoided if the Romulan commander hadn't been suckered into flying exactly where Renhadd wanted him to fly.
But hey, if Starfleet captains can use scientific bullshit to blow stuff up with their deflector dishes (something that isn't even supposed to be a weapon) then a genius commander can probably get away with offensive mine use. Just as long as we remember that it is bullshit, and therefore requires individual circumstances and special capability to pull off.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't think there's any significant benefit to building 2mt Aux berths unless they are incredibly cheap. Right now we could buy a pair of regular for likely 27pp or so at UP. Just task them to superfreighters for the next 10 years.
As for the next cruiser design... It's going to be significantly more expensive than the Rennie. So long as we make sure to have at least 4 2mt berths at UP within the next 10 years, and start some more as soon as we start the prototype, all will be well. Starting 6 at once is likely in the neighborhood of 700sr/1000br with 24 of each total crew type, and I doubt we will be able to afford more than that.
As for the next cruiser design... It's going to be significantly more expensive than the Rennie. So long as we make sure to have at least 4 2mt berths at UP within the next 10 years, and start some more as soon as we start the prototype, all will be well. Starting 6 at once is likely in the neighborhood of 700sr/1000br with 24 of each total crew type, and I doubt we will be able to afford more than that.
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- Location
- somewhere
Build enough 3mt berths and the number of 2mt berths is a complete non-issue. We are sometimes building 1mt ships in our 3mt berths already and I don't particularly see that as a waste, with 2mt ships it definitely wouldn't be. Given the choice between a 2mt and a 3mt berth I'd always pick the 3mt one regardless of building plans unless the cost premium is higher than 20% (depending on circumstances I'd be willing to pay a higher premium). Even for auxiliary yards I'd prefer 3mt berths in case future super freighters are larger, though given how long away that likely is it wouldn't make much sense to pay a significant premium.
Thebigpieman
I've got this, I think.
- Location
- United States
Despite STO taking place far in the future and may not be applicable to TBG canon, Rapid Deployable mines do exist in the star trek setting as a whole. We may not have access to them right now, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
We also have Amarkia closer to the front, while still not in easy raiding distance, and right on the front is a target. We will need to be rushing freighters if our logistical loops get attacked too.
Also, if we have a freighter shortage already, than we need to build even more yards to make the ships to support yards constructed at the end of our logistical chain instead of ones in the center of our loops.
Something else to note with Amarkia is that although it's a trade and logistical hub right now, the ratification of Orion will start to shift trade routes rimward. There's going to be a southern route that will develop within the next three years to complement the northern one. Alukk, Ferasa and Arqueniou are better served with a Tellar -> Ord Grind Duk branch than another out of Amarkia or Leas Akkam. Which shifts our logistical hub back towards Tellar again.
e: or more likely, another triangle, with one side being Amarkia to Alukk and another being the Tellar to Ord Grind Duk to Alukk route
e: or more likely, another triangle, with one side being Amarkia to Alukk and another being the Tellar to Ord Grind Duk to Alukk route
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- Location
- Australia
I've added in a number of suggestions that will become options in this turn in future years, and that will partly become available during the Snakepit.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, I can get the idea of that kind of offensive mine warfare, but that's the sort of thing you can't really prepare for because it only works if the enemy has your commander on the spot hopelessly outwitted. You can't prepare for all ten thousand brilliant master gimmicks, any more than you can prepare for all ten thousand weaponized technobabble gimmicks. Commanders who try to prepare for all such tricks tend to end up suffering from a McClellan-esque inability to take decisive action, due to constant fear of being tricked. All you can do is make sure you and your people are trained and skillful enough to detect and counter the tricks as they arise.
As long as the premium is low I agree. The two-megaton berth at Utopia Planitia constitutes unusual "low-hanging fruit" in that 11pp is a quite low and favorable price for ANY berth, plus for now at least we've been keeping our three-megaton berths heavily occupied nearly all the time.
The big problem I foresee is that the only other cheap way for us to get heavy berths is Utopia Planitia expansions, and there has to be some point beyond which we really don't want to rely TOO heavily on Utopia Planitia. Having four of our ten heavy berths around the same planet, and five in the same system, is already pushing it a bit.
Thing is, that's an STO game mechanic and I prefer not to rely on those, if only because if we follow that conclusion to its logical extreme we end up with a Starfleet that is in large part flying around random ships from people like the Breen, Vaadwaur (!), futuristic Nakuhl and Vorgons (!!!), and even Species 8472 bioships (!!!!!), because a lot of people do that in-game.
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UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Don't forget the futuristic timeships.
Oh wow, that is *much* better. Clearly establishes different paths to alleviating weaknesses, whether it be more intensive surveying, laying mines, setting up fixed defenses, and even some diplomatic efforts.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Agreed, significantly improved. I think we're going to have a very interesting Snakepit...
I expect the outpost suggestions may end up being a package deal. Also worth noting we'll gain additional control over Seyek fortifications after ratification.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We're going to need to crash build engineering teams...