Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
- Location
- Liberl Zemuria.
Tally time
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There is no way in hell the Licori would use something as benign as a Patroller.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
We should gift a picture of a Caitian with it saying "Hang in there.".
- Location
- USA
Okay, so if we are going by 'decent ships which we appear to have access to the designs to, under 1mt, which were designed before 2310'
That's:
Centaur
Centaur-A (most up to date ship, being 2308)
Hebrinda
Constitution
Ranger
Patroller
Soyuz
Brieca
Perciar
Constellation
Oberth
Miranda
Calac
Do we have all of these designs?
That's:
Centaur
Centaur-A (most up to date ship, being 2308)
Hebrinda
Constitution
Ranger
Patroller
Soyuz
Brieca
Perciar
Constellation
Oberth
Miranda
Calac
Do we have all of these designs?
I like this plan.
Jenny
anonymous user
- Location
- maryland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It seems odd to me that Base Strike has nothing to help with minesweeping, considering that the primary place you'd find mines is to protect the very installations Base Strike is looking to attack.
I'd suggest moving "Coordinated Minesweeping (+1 S to Minesweeping for Frigates)" to a Base Strike tech. Maybe pair it with a tech that makes laying mines faster/cheaper, reflecting the offensive-defensive nature of Base Strike?
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Who's "we?" Aside from the Patroller, every single ship you listed is either a Starfleet design or an Amarki design.
Also, some of those designs are not particularly 'decent' by any stretch of the imagination. The Ranger-class is somewhere between 80 and 100 years old, the Soyuz not much newer and utterly outclassed even for its tiny tonnage, when compared to modern escorts. The original TOS-era Constitution is likewise obsolete in the extreme, and its Constitution-A (movie era) refit is bloated and overly expensive in resources and manpower for the tonnage and what the ship can do.
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
A lot can happen in a few years, maybe the federation falls out with them, maybe they are facing a crisis and a mercantile civ offers them a great deal for the sensor tech, or the schematics of the Connie-B, but overall we just don't know. We are giving them information, and information can move across borders much faster then ships.
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
Let's try to add some structure to this vote... Just provide:
1 Capital
1 Cruiser
1 Frigate
...that you feel cover the missions you (Starfleet) feel are most important in a spacegoing navy. Try to avoid the latest bleeding edge - even apart from the intelligence concerns, they'd have a hard time getting their domestic industry to a point where they could build it. They'd just about need to wait for a new generation of PhDs to understand the physics you'd be handing them. Refits of older ships are okay on that front.
(This is you making suggestions to the Council, so it is okay to suggest member-world designs - not affiliate designs, however)
1 Capital
1 Cruiser
1 Frigate
...that you feel cover the missions you (Starfleet) feel are most important in a spacegoing navy. Try to avoid the latest bleeding edge - even apart from the intelligence concerns, they'd have a hard time getting their domestic industry to a point where they could build it. They'd just about need to wait for a new generation of PhDs to understand the physics you'd be handing them. Refits of older ships are okay on that front.
(This is you making suggestions to the Council, so it is okay to suggest member-world designs - not affiliate designs, however)
Yeah, that's something I'll most likely do.
I think the Capital ship design is the most up in the air. I'm not sure we have any Capital ship designs that:
1. We would feel comfortable giving them.
2. That they could build anyway.
3. That aren't hopelessly outmoded.
Would there be a lot of disappointment if they don't get a cap-ship design?
(to the thread in general)
Another reason I'm pushing the designs I am is that I view it as a little test for the Tauni.
They ask for ship designs, we we give them a few perfectly decent high-Science designs that are well worth building, but only middling combat-wise. Do they?
A. Thank us for the awesome Science ships?
B. Thank us for the designs, but hint they'd like something with more combat punch in the future?
C. Express bitter disappointment that we get the awesome boom-ships for ourselves.
Their reaction will tell us a great deal about them.
- Location
- Australia
Not hugely no, it's something they'd probably be able to revisit in future. They haven't got a massive industry and resource base, so cruiser and frigate is what they'd get the most mileage out of.
Omake - The Next Generation - Pt 5 - Iron Wolf
The Next Generation, Pt 5
USS Saratoga
USS Saratoga
Ixazza was greeted with a cloud of stifling steam as soon as the door to Engineering opened, her suit becomign heavy with moisture as she walked inside. Through the fog Ixazza saw white suited Engineering laying out hoses, pushing by red-suited officers scrambling to configure work stations. She could hear more than see Belessen as he shouted out orders across the deck, his voice almost drowned out by the roar of water from the hoses. Ixazza found her sister, clad in the white engineering suit, surrounded by water-dark maroon at the bank of consoles usually reserved for the Chief Engineer.
Ixbrezzen was looking at her, waiting for direction. Had she said something? Mentally, Ixazza was focussed on the fact this sad sauna, right next to the second-most volatile device on the ship, was her bridge. She repressed more insane laughter. A memory gurgled to the surface of her mind, a vision of one of her Aunt-Queens explaining to a group of enraptured workers:
"The secret is, in combat, everyone is terrified. Everyone is a scared little larva. But if you keep your voice like this, you sound like you know something. That you're not scared. And others won't be scared either."
No need to ignore Aunt-Queen Ixevizza now. She held down her panic and affected the imperious tone of a Queen, turning to her sister, "Status report, Lieutenant?"
"Not good!" Ixbrezzen replied. Ixazza frowned at her sister as the crew exchanged nervous glances -- apparently Ixbrezzen missed that story-time. "Sovan had us maneuvered us into an intense radiation belt, and then hit it with a burst of thorons generated by the deflector. At the cost of irradiating most of the outer hull and cracking the deflector ring, it's severely degraded their accuracy. They're shooting blind." She pointed to a string of angry red blinking on a status monitor, "The main port radial EPS trunk has blown out at nine nodes. It's not feeding to the nacelle. The injector is probably damaged too."
"No warp." Ixazza said. "Are we in contact with Starfleet?"
"There's no comms in this radiation, but they were updated with our location and status before we dropped into the belt. And I'm not writing warp off yet!" Ixbrezzen wiped moisture off her head, putting her hands on her hips. She nodded at the engineering crew and the hoses that were drenching the warp core, "Both primary Coolant loops shattered as well. We got one back online, but only at 25% capacity. The coolent foam backups were entirely jammed, most of the pressure went when they hit the ventral lines. So we had to improvise. We're lucky we've got the sump pumps operational."
"Or that Starfleet forsaw their use." Belessen had finally noticed her entrance and was slithering over, water pooling on the floor leaving ripples in his wake, "If we stay here for a sustained duration, we will be steamed or suffocated." Belessen said, "But for now it is acceptably serviceable, if unpleasant."
"Just be glad we didn't have to pipe from the sewage stores, Ixazza!" Rera-Pram commented, spinning around on her chair. Ixazza's heart lifting at a familiar face. She sat at a console labelled 'injector status,' but that was now displaying the ship's pitch, roll, and yaw, and other important indicators for maneuvering.
"Thank you for the report, Lieutenant," She said to her sister, "I want you to work with Ensign Belessen to restore warp power." She scanned Engineering, squinting through the steam. She took a deep breath and bellowed, "Is anyone here from Tactical?"
There was silence. Then, an Orion with one of the barely visible pump crews raised her hand. She had the tan shoulders of the enlisted, "Yes ma'am."
"Come here." The stout Orion handed the hose off to someone else and walked over. When she was closer, Ixazza could look down and see the device of a Chief Petty Officer. "Escape is the only option now." Ixazza stated, "Would you concur?"
"Mmm." The Orion grumbled. She looked at the status monitor, "Yes."
"You." Ixazza pointed at a Caldonian with the yellow collar of Navigation. "Who are you?"
"Ensign Orgot, sir!" He said, straightening, towering over her even more.
"Orgot, I need an escape trajectory out of here. One that gives us the best head-start on the Cardassians on the shortest path to help. Chief… your name?"
"Nochada."
"Nochada, Orgot. What course do you think the Cardassians are taking right now?"
"Well," Nochada said, adjusting her belt slightly, then tapping at a wall console to bring up an trajectory map, "Sensors are showing a big magnetic anomaly here, and they last shot at us from here, so…" She paused, "Ensign Orgot, would you like a say? Sir."
"No ma'am, er Chief, you're doing great!"
"Well thanks. Anyways, it looks like instead of chasing us directly in, they're curving around the outer edge to blast us as soon as we come out. Smart move."
Ixazza nodded, "I see. How would we avoid that?"
Nochada rubbed her lips thoughtfully, then pulled her hand back and frowned as water dripped off it.
"Quickly, Chief!"
"I say we go at 'em head-on, then." Nochada said, looking at her hand a moment longer before tapping at the display. "They won't expect an aggressive maneuver. The fires in the shuttlebay that damped for a bit are now back with full force -- but we can work with that. We vent the plasma and debris into the outer edge of the belt, as a cover, energize more with a few modified torpedos to blind 'em. Once they're able to loop out of the radiation belt and reinitialize their sensors we should have a gotten a good run in." She nodded, "Only problem is, we'd need warp, 'cause we'll have blinded ourselves and they'll be able to just hammer our aft quarter."
"Noted. Work with Ensign Orgot to plan the maneuver and jump to warp."
"Gotcha, ma'am. Come on, kid," she stepped aside and pushed Orgot in front of the console. They made an odd pair, the lanky Caldonian towering over the shorter Orion. "Let's put that brain to work."
Ixazza tweaked an eyebrow at Rera-Pram, watching who was watching their work from afar with interest, "Eager to execute the maneuver, I see."
"Head-on, ma'am!" Rera-Pram said, with glee. She wiped beads of water away from her eyes, and then ripped part of her sleeve off and wrapped it around her head as an impromptu sweatband. "Oh, this is going to be epic."
Ixazza shook her head, hair sticking to her forehead. She somehow doubted it'd be particularly epic with only one phaser turret in the bow arc at full function. "Ixbrezzen, what is the status on warp power?"
"We've got the power, Ixazza, but it's not reaching the nacelles." Ixbrezzen said, "I'm going to get Belessen to work on a redirect. But status shows the port plasma injector has been damaged. It'll need to be recalibrated and replaced."
"There should be a crew manning that post." Ixazza said, "Why don't they…"
"I can't raise them," Ixbrezzen said. She added softly, "I think they were killed by feedback when the EPS injectors blew."
Ixazza bowed her head sadly, then heaved herself forward, "It will be hazardous and I have the most expertise with that system. I'll make the replacement…"
Ixbrezzen stopped her in her tracks with a single, quick glance down at her hands, curled up into claws. Belessen slithered up, a spare injector peeking out of a bag on his back.
"You and I have the same expertise on the injectors. I can handle it." Ixbrezzen jerked her head up, indicating the 'bridge,' "Besides, you've got duties here."
Ixazza looked down at her hands, frustrated. Finally, she gave her sister a half-hug, pressing her shoulder into the thick engineering suit, her cheek against her sister's, hands and arms held away from her body. "Go," Ixazza whispered fiercely. Ixbrezzen pulled away, then nodded at Belessen before taking off.
The ship rumbled as the Saratoga went into a sharp turn, Rera-Pram executing Orgot's maneuver as soon as he'd finished it. Ixazza spent the next few minutes relaying instructions through Layiil, who had two of his claws tapping away at the console while another pair continually wiped away the gathering condensation. Damage control teams pre-positioned, saucer evacuated. Aft torpedo tubes loaded and fire crews redirected from the roaring blaze in the shuttlebay. Her eye continually flickering over to the science console, now manned by Technician Vinitta, a a Qloathi fresh from the academy.
"Are we able to get a clear sensor return from the Cardassian vessel yet?"
Vinitta shook her head. "It's just a big blob, still, ma'am." She squinted, then slapped her forehead dramatically and used a slider on the screen to adjust resolution, "Profile's getting narrower, ma'am. I think they've noticed our course correction." She shook her head, "Probably think we've been overcome by an insatiable bloodlust."
"Tactical speculation to a minimum, Specialist. Time to them being able to target us?"
"I'd estimate thirty seconds."
"Direct SIF to forward seconday hull bulkheads. Reinforce forward phaser frames." She gestured at the controls and Layiil and an engineering petty officer complied.
"Special torpedoes loaded," Nochada reported. Her jacket was tied around her waist, the undershirt stuck to her skin.
"Now it's the gauntlet," Orgot muttered.
"Ixazza to Ixbrezzen. We need warp."
"Fifteen seconds." Vinitta said.
"I'm almost done, sister," came Ixbrezzen's reply. She sounded out of breath, and there was an insistent beeping in the background, "Listen, there's going to be debris registered in the path of the plasma injector when you go to restart flow. Just ignore it, it's light stuff."
"Weapons fire detected." Nochada reported, reaching out almost languidly to brace herself.
The ship rocked, and Ixazza bumped painfully into the console in front of her, until Layiil stabilized her. "Fire any remaining forward phasers, pattern Sierra. Drive them towards us."
"On it."
"Rera-Pram, roll us ninety degrees. Keep the top of the saucer towards the enemy."
"Aye ma'am."
Vinitta started at her console, "Ma'am, they have unleashed a maelstrom upon us. Multiple torpedos tracking, primary disruptor cannon discharging--!"
Layiil wrapped two arms around Ixazza, the Apiata unable to buzz a protest before everyone was thrown violently, sparks flying and guttering in the water pooled at their feet. A few slipped and crashed into the water, Nochada throwing droplets everywhere as she violently clawed back to her console. Vinitta stayed standing, riding each violent jerk with the grace of a dancer. Ixazza felt a mingled pride and hope swell in her chest as she saw the wide-eyed technicaian cause one, and then two torpedos to break off. That hope was dashed as Vinitta screamed "Impacts expected!" On her screen, the third and fourth torpedo were undeterred.
"BRACE! Get a forcefield on the warp core!" Ixazza said, slapping away Layiil's help. She'd painfully slammed down on the containment button herself when all hell broke loose. Harsh flame burst through the roof, frying Vinitta in an instant. Layiil threw himself on top of Ixazza just as there was a loud pop. "Kid!" she heard someone shout in the din, and then the terrible sound of metal rending and bouncing.
Layiil rolled off her into water that was now brown as red, purple, and blue blood mixed in. There was a sizzle as the feathers on his back extinguished, his tentacles scratching at Ixazza's pants as he writhed in pain. Ixazza saw the roof had exploded outward, a cloud of white coolant flash-freezing ice where it fell. She pulled herself up, and saw Nochada, impaled through the eye by a small metal spar, her head just in front of a terrified Orgot's heart.
Almost in slow motion she saw Panora slide into the water next to Layiil, battering off the panicking Fiiral's flailing tentacles and claws to press a hypo to his neck. She looked down and saw nacelle feed status:
READY.
"Thanks sis," she whispered as she winced through the initializing procedure. Everything else was distant, screams and boiling water (and flesh) and the crunch of bulkheads as she painfully ran through each step. Check magnitization, ignore the pain, check flow path...
WARNING, OBSTRUCTION--
Override. Check EPS tap status.
Lights blinked back into existence on the status board. Ixazza glanced at the science console, ignoring the corpse of Vinitta that was rapidly becoming encrusted in frost. They were clear of the Cardassian ship. She half-stumbled in the now ankle-deep water, tripping around Layiil to slap down the firing button for the aft torpedos, screaming in agony as she followed up by elbowing the button tied to the shuttlebay vent macro Layiil had quickly cobbled together.
The displays on the science console went black as the sensors overloaded. Ixazza looked to the right at Rera-Pram, "Pram, go! Maximum warp!"
She only noticed the bloody red holes torn into the back of Rera-Pram's jacket as she fell sideways into the water, blood spattered on the temporary conn. Ixazza blinked, then twisted her head sharply to look at Orgot, water spraying off her hair. He was on one knee, helping Panora with Layiil. He noticed Rera-Pram's fall, and he froze.
"Orgot! Fly, damn it!"
The Caldonian snapped out of his trance and crawl-ran his way to the Conn, wiping a coat of reddish blood off the control. He tapped at them feverishly. Soon, there was the building of a reassuring hum, and then the familiar sensation of going to warp.
Everyone stood still, panting. Waiting.
Nothing happened.
There was an urgent beep, and Ixazza and Orgot started. There was a single blinking light at the 'science' console, in an area they'd reconfigured for comms. Orgot made a start towards it, then stopped short. Grimacing, he pushed his way past Vinitta's body.
"Send it to my console," Ixazza said. Orgot nodded, pressed a few buttons, and now there was a blinking light on Ixazza's console. With grim determination she pressed down on it, wincing as pain shot up her fingertips.
"This is Captain Min-Jin Lee of Valiant to the USS Saratoga. We are on our way with the Winterwind. What is your status?"
"This is Lieutenant Ixazza, we're -- we are bad. Most of the senior staff is dead or incapacitated. We've taken severe casualties. Most weapons systems are offline, and our rear sensors are no longer functional." Ixazza took a deep breath in, trying to regain that queen haughtiness, "However, we do have warp power. Send us a rendezvous and we can --" She glanced at some of the hull stress monitors, felt her voice falter a little, "--very likely make it."
"Understood. It appears the Jaldun is breaking off. We will continue to monitor your status from here and prepare damage control teams. Don't push your ship too hard, Captain." The word echoed in Ixazza's head, "It would be a shame for you to survive combat only to explode a few light hours from safety."
"I appreciate the advice, Captain, and I will implement it immediately. Saratoga out." the light blinked off, "Orgot, reduce warp factor by 25%."
"Aye ma'am." He coughed, and Ixazza realized how thick the air had become with steam now that the warp core was seriously operating, and how hot.
"You, you, and you." She pointed to an Ensign and several enlisted, "gather people to help with the wounded, then have all non-engineering staff evacuate the space. Get anyone who remains on respirators and rotate them. Have them report to Doctor Panora if they show signs of heat stroke. Orogt, engage autopilot." She reached down into the blood-muddy water and fished around, wincing as her fingers found a communicator and flipped it open, "Belessen, organize teams and then find me," she coughed into her arm, "A new command post."
"Aye ma'am."
She closed the communicator with her wrists and then directed an enlisted to help Panora lift Layiil out of the water. She stumbled towards the exit and into a corridor, gasping as the relatively cold air filled her lungs and sucked warmth from her drenched clothes. A nurse brushed by her to help take Layiil.
That's when she heard it.
The beeping from Ixbrezzen's comms.
She turned to see an engineering spacer, a Yrillian with a large burn on her face. Which, given the size of Yrillians, was large indeed. She was being worked on frantically by a nurse, as another injected her with a hypo. Ixazza knelt in front of her. The spacer started, and Ixazza briefly wondered how terrible her own visage looked. But no time for that. She glanced down at the insistent, beeping light on the spacer's chest.
A radiation overdose alarm.
She knew that noise from hundreds of training scenarios. Hell, after being a wall away from a torpedo impact, hers was probably close to going off.
But she didn't want to confront what it meant.
"Seconds from death, ma'am." The spacer said to break the silence, giving Ixazza a grin that, like her voice, was full of pained bravado, "Got to a safe compartment just in time. Thank god there were anti-rad meds--"
"Thank you for your report," Ixazza said stiffly, getting to her feet. She flipped open the communicator she had painfully propped in her elbow again.
"Ixazza to Ixbrezzen."
Nothing. Ixazza stumbled through corridors towards the rear of the ship.
"Ixazza to Ixbrezzen."
She found the entry hatch to climb the narrow maintenance accessway to the nacelle. She slammed an elbow into the access panel, the door sliding open. She climbed inside, then growled at the rungs confronting her. She hooked an elbow in…
Her radiation alarm beeped. Some deep part of her made her let go of the rung, back out of the hatch, and seal it clumsily.
"Ixbrezzen, please." She closed her eyes, brows furrowed, willing the universe to bend.
"Computer, status of Lieutenant Ixbrezzen."
"Deceased."
Heat was running down her face now, "Analysis?"
"Lieutenant Ixbrezzen had suffered a lethal dose of radiation in the port nacelle and was in microgravity near the plasma injector. Lifesigns ceased completely when warp plasma was initialized."
Ixazza started back towards the hatchway up to the nacelle, then stopped herself, and then with, quick and agitated steps turned back to the wall. She turned again, shaking, her wrists pressed to her temples. Paced this way half-a-dozen times, water dripping and pooling in her path, when she realized Belessen had appeared at the end of the hallway. He was frozen, his eyes tracking her motion, still as a stone.
One look at his face told her everything. She stood there, her whole body quaking.
Then she went very still.
"You knew." She hissed.
Belessen nodded, "Once we opened the hatch, she knew it was a one way trip." He bowed his head, staring at the floor, "If we had more time--"
"Look at me, Ensign!" Ixazza snapped, advancing on the Seyek, who curled tight, shrinking before the Apiata. His eyes flicked up once, then down again. Ixazza brought her hand up in a quick, jerking motion, slapping Belessen's face up, the screaming agony in her hands only fuelling her anger.
He blinked at her in surprise, "'Azza, I'm sorry, please. I would have done it myself, but I… didn't know how to fix it!"
"You could have taken turns." Ixazza seethed.
"We would have if we had more time, 'Azza." He reached out with one hand, grabbing the stony-faced Apiata by the shoulder, "'Azza, I would have done it myself!" He shook her, "I would have done it myself, you said yourself only she and you could do it, she ordered me to, you have to believe me, please!"
Ixazza stared over Belessen's shoulder. She remembered that last pathetic hug, nothing but their faces touching, and wanted to scream.
"'Azza, say something!"
Ixazza pushed him away with her good forearm, "Ensign." She said, her jaw tight, "Have you found a suitable temporary command center?"
Belessen stared at her blankly, then turned his head to the side, "Yes. There's an intact workspace on Deck 18. Section 54, Compartment 12." His eyes slowly turned back to her, "...Not exactly a awe-inspiring name, I know." He flicked his tongue out signalling amusement, but his posture was guarded.
Ixazza pushed past him, "You are in charge of damage control, Ensign. Continue your work."
Belessen stared after her, until she was out of sight. Then, he hissed and turned, slithering in the opposite direction, shoulders slouched.
(Final)
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
[X][TAUNI] Provide Constellation, Miranda, Patroller-A
This is the lighter side of Starfleet's canon late 23rd century lineup, aside from the "super-ship" Excelsiors. We have better reason to think the Tauni can build it, since it's old technology. But, being old, it's been widely disseminated for many years, so the Klingons and Romulans almost certainly know all about it and the Cardassians do too. At least two and possibly three of the ship classes can be retrofitted with more modern equipment for relatively little effort in 5-10 years as we grow closer to the Tauni. And, frankly, they're not going to be menacing the broader galaxy using these ships.
The Constellation is an adequate generalist ship by 23rd century standards and can be made into a damn good one with the update we'll share with them shortly. The Miranda is an effective attack frigate with enough firepower that nobody will want to take them lightly; the lack of durability is an issue but, again, that can be fixed in five or ten years' time. The resource costs associated with the refits are modest, and we can probably make arrangements with the Tauni to split the costs if they need that.
Adding in the Patroller-A gives them some flexibility with very small berths.
Last edited:
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Well, the Constellation-A is waaay bigger than the other two ( 700 kt vs 371 kt and 150 kt)- it could probably function as an early explorer, even if it's pretty small by our standards.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Can they use the conniebee as a capship?
- Location
- Australia
Yes - it's still based on an Explorer frame, so it can carry out many of the same functions, even though it was largely refit as a combatant.
Okay, with this new information that a Constitution-B can serve as a viable capital ship, I'm comfortable amending my vote to add it as a "cap-ship" design if they really want to build one. See my edited vote below.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Thors_Alumni
Proud member of Thors Class VII from Liberl
- Location
- Liberl Zemuria.
How many rennies are we planning on building anyway?
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Briefvoice's plan for 2317 has us starting 5 Rennies, so, uh... Yeah, we kinda are.
Also, the ConnieB is by WoG a time-limited design. We have stretched the frame the most it will tolerate. I suspect that in 10-15 years the ones that aren't shot up will start premature aging.
Last edited: