Btw, how about two teams of a stinger plus a swarmer fighting each other for the whole cooperation exercise angle instead? Or do we have some reason for trying to test the two designs against each other?
1 PP and 2 RP currently with Colony Datanets boosting RP by 1 from all colonies, they can be worth it. Once we get the second colony core though they really become good investments. If we have no other colonies in a turn I would still want 1 or 2 BR just to boost our PP and RP by a bit.Eh, I think given a choice I would always pass on BR colonies. The small RP and PP income isn't worth the cost when looking at a term that goes up to the predictable future for the quest's economy.
SR and research colonies are another matter entirely. Give me as many as possible.
Add me to the tag list.Ok. Will do.
> : \
I should probably make a list.
This has happened before and I've probably forgotten the people that have already told me that.
So, we get these tech advances, then BriefVoice has to redo his entire projected ship plan as we refit everything as fast as we can cycle them through the yards?
Miranda-B anyone?
Oberth-A perhaps?
Take the Pacifist Science Constellation and give it some real teeth?
Maybe our lonely Constitution-A will get it's own refit path? Though I figure it is more likely that the QM would either rule she is too old, or make a Constitution-C that both the -A and -B can refit to.
Might have to find some way to increase the Combat Cap ....
While given how frames work this may not be possible, I can easily imagine us deciding to reduce the overall space for weaponry in the new design so that we can emphasize stats other than Combat. If we were in the middle of a knock-down drag-out war we might want a "battleship Ambassador refit with such remarkable firepower, but that would be different.
Bottom line: We should totally build this ship, BUT... I think it's going to have to wait until further into the future than the earliest point at which we could possibly design and build it. On the other hand, when we DO build it it's going to be even more impressive than we expect.
Most likely we've phased in Excelsior-C that's faster to build and lower cost.Wild speculation alert!
Jump forward 3-4 decades.
Our Explorer Corp is trading in their Ambassadors for Galaxies.
Our regular fleets are a mix of Ambassador-A, a few remaining Excelsior-B, but mostly [un-named] cruisers, Kepler-As and a core of [tentatively naming as New Orleans] combat frigates. Maybe a Kepler replacement is being worked on.
The Humans are the first member fleet to have their own Galaxy class.
The vulcans and Gaeni are working on a new generation tech-cruiser.
The bees and cats have swarm doctrine to new heights and earned a place of terror in the Cardassian world view.
The 'problem' is simply that we haven't been in the mood to allocate berth space to the construction of engineering ships. No pressing need to do so has been identified.
A new design MIGHT help in that we'd have less reluctance to build new engineering ship hulls if they weren't being constructed to a 23rd century template. But it's not that we can't afford to build engineering ships, it's that there is honestly a preference (or seems to be) for more frigates and cruisers. Especially since, as noted, we don't really have an option for "build more engineering ships."
While given how frames work this may not be possible, I can easily imagine us deciding to reduce the overall space for weaponry in the new design so that we can emphasize stats other than Combat. If we were in the middle of a knock-down drag-out war we might want a "battleship Ambassador refit with such remarkable firepower, but that would be different.
I'm also not sure we can make a ship 200kt bigger during a refit...?
This sounds appealing, and arguably sounds like it's going to become our primary workhorse cruiser of the TNG era.
Bear in mind that our incentive to develop such a ship is decreased by two special factors.
One, berthing space. We have berths in three, 2.5, and one-megaton sizes. The first two sizes reward us for using our existing Excelsiors and promote a 'big is beautiful' concept. The latter size rewards us for building individually smaller, weaker ships to fill the escort roles. This is why it seems like nearly everyone EXCEPT us started the game with big solid cruiser designs, but relatively few people had explorers like ours. The turtleship, the Jaldun, the Kalindrax, and so on, they all reflect what is possible for a nation that designs its cruisers to fit in two-megaton berths instead of one-megaton berths.
We'd have to construct a whole new berthing infrastructure to sustain production of these heavy cruisers, or we'd have to accept that they compete for space directly with Ambassadors and Excelsior-A/B refit ships. Which brings me to my next point...
The other issue is the large number of Excelsiors we'll have fielded by this time. Your proposed ship is going to have to compete with the Excelsior-As we've already deployed, and (by 2325-30) the possibility of an Excelsior-B refit. In my honest opinion, we are fairly unlikely to design a 1.5-megaton 'heavy cruiser' until we can build one that is clearly superior to "just refit one of our existing Excelsiors with the latest tech." Or until we hit a crew crunch tight enough that mothballing manpower-intensive Excelsiors in favor of trimmer, leaner-manned cruisers becomes desirable. And while that's a problem we face right now, we may not still experience the same problem the same way by 2325 or 2330.
Bottom line: We should totally build this ship, BUT... I think it's going to have to wait until further into the future than the earliest point at which we could possibly design and build it. On the other hand, when we DO build it it's going to be even more impressive than we expect.
What I'm getting at is that we build ships to do jobs, and the question may well be "why build a new ship to do this job when we have one of our many Excelsior-As already in service that can do the same job, or do it with a slight modernizing -B refit?"It was a spitball exercise, mostly. My thought process is that once the Amby gets into production, we may shift towards building Ambys for our Explorer needs and the Excelsior isn't going to be something we build that often. The capability gap is enormous for the cost. Something like my design would be a Renaissance replacement, since it's much cheaper than the Excelsior-A (fifth less crew, almost a third less SR) but similarly capable. Unless we can make the Excelsiors cheaper, I don't see much point continuing production past the 2320s. They're good all-rounders, but at a stunning cost. We'll have Rennies to be combat cruisers and secondary responders, and Keplers to handle peacetime event response. A cheaper E-A will allow us to have a large population of all-rounders without the significant cost.
Thing is, that PP income starts paying for itself very quickly. If you pay 8pp to get something that grants you 1pp a year in perpetuity, that's functionally equivalent to investing your political will at 12.5% annual interest... forever. The rest is just gravy.Eh, I think given a choice I would always pass on BR colonies. The small RP and PP income isn't worth the cost when looking at a term that goes up to the predictable future for the quest's economy.
SR and research colonies are another matter entirely. Give me as many as possible.
Thing is, that PP income starts paying for itself very quickly. If you pay 8pp to get something that grants you 1pp a year in perpetuity, that's functionally equivalent to investing your political will at 12.5% annual interest... forever. The rest is just gravy.
While it may be that we can do better than that, that is nothing to sneeze at.
What I'm getting at is that we build ships to do jobs, and the question may well be "why build a new ship to do this job when we have one of our many Excelsior-As already in service that can do the same job, or do it with a slight modernizing -B refit?"
It's sort of like one of the problems Microsoft faces; their greatest competitor isn't Apple or whoever, it's older versions of their own products that do their jobs in a satisfactory manner and don't urgently need replacement. In our case there's the prospect of new sectors being added to increase our needs for a bigger and bigger fleet, though; that's one possible driver of a new heaavy cruiser type.
On the other hand, if we're going to do that, we really should prepare sooner, rather than later. We'll want to consider some berthing infrastructure sized for two-megaton ships, though I suppose we could just decide to never build them in anything other than the 'explorer' berths we may have less pressing need of once we've stopped Excelsior production, with Ambassadors and the new cruisers occupying those heavier berths in a 'high-low' mix.
The answer to that question lies in this one: is there any point to building Excelsiors after we have Ambys? If there's still a need for general purpose capital ships that aren't 240sr and 20 crew, then it probably behooves us to build something cheaper than an Excelsior. We certainly won't be retiring any Excelsiors, and I see no reason not to refit them to the B-standard as soon as we can, but they are quite expensive.
I'm a bit skeptical of the idea that we can rely on being able to invest 20 political will in a way that will reliably pay off an average of 4-5pp. The most favorable possible investments may pay off on that scale, but that doesn't mean all of them do. A reasonable rate of investment has to reflect overall return rates, not just the cherrypicked "on your best day" ones.I know that, but I don't find a 7y return (minus the time value of PP) very appealing. It's too long-term for my tastes. My estimation is that the value of PP is something like 20% to 25% per year, so 12.5% annual interest isn't that great.
I doubt we'll build many more Excelsiors after 2322 or so, but by that time we'll already have quite a few. I can see us wanting the capability to mass-produce a new heavy cruiser by 2330 or so, though, which would require starting the project in the early to mid-2320s.The answer to that question lies in this one: is there any point to building Excelsiors after we have Ambys? If there's still a need for general purpose capital ships that aren't 240sr and 20 crew, then it probably behooves us to build something cheaper than an Excelsior. We certainly won't be retiring any Excelsiors, and I see no reason not to refit them to the B-standard as soon as we can, but they are quite expensive.
I have no idea how I would find the time to participate, but please add me to the list of people who want to know.On the other hand I am getting ready to run an Honerverse quest
Oooh. Controversial!SECRET LEVEL CLASSIFICATION UNLOCKED
-You are now cleared to know that there is additional information regarding Patricia Chen that is under TAL SHIAR TOREYA level need-to-know classification. Apply clearance codes for further details.
TAL SHIAR TOREYA LEVEL UNLOCKED
-The following information was obtained through Orion Syndicate contacts prior to the anti-Syndicate efforts of the UFP. These contacts were eliminated and information was purged from their data banks to ensure the knowledge remains the exclusive property of the Romulan Star Empire.
-As a child, Patricia Chen's parents arranged for treatments within Orion space that artificially enhanced her intelligence. These enhancements would have been highly illegal within United Earth. See attached files for details and chain-of-evidence. It is unknown if Chen herself is aware of the nature and extent these enhancements. Under Earth law Chen would bear no legal responsibility for these enhancements, but they would be considered sufficiently scandalous as to likely end her Starfleet career.
-This information has been classified so that it can be utilized when and if a disruption of the Starfleet would be maximally advantageous for the Empire, particularly if Chen has been appointed Starfleet Commander.
That is... entertainingly plausible and badass. All the Tal Shiar knows about Linderley is that he's... really frighteningly good at keeping the Tal Shiar from knowing things about him.Scott Linderley
SPECIES: Human
CURRENT POST: Commander of Starfleet Intelligence. Though individual member states maintain their own intelligence divisions, Starfleet Intelligence is believed to be the primary espionage service for the UFP as a whole.
TIME-IN-RANK: 1.25 years prior to current date (Note he has held the post of Commander of Starfleet Intelligence for 6 years and was promoted to Vice Admiral while maintaining the same assignment.)
SERVICE HISTORY HIGHLIGHTS: Unknown. Vice Admiral Linderley has successfully managed to erase or encrypt records on his earlier career, and our usual sources have been unable to help.
PERSONALITY: Secretive and paranoid, we assume.
STRENGTHS: Counter-intelligence.
WEAKNESSES: Unknown.
POLITICAL ALIGNMENT: Unknown.
COMMENTS: Currently lacks time in rank to be promoted to Starfleet Commander, barring extraordinary circumstances. Little firm information is available, but it seems unlikely that a man with such a low public profile would ever be made Commander of Starfleet.
[X]WG A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - 2 modern Catian Swarmers vs 2 Stingers
I had not realised just how the species of our senior Admirals broke down. I knew Humans dominated, but had not spotted how many are actually Andorian - guess I thought they were Vulcan names.
We have no one outside of Human, Vulcan and Andorian at the top ranks yet? I'm sure we started this quest with 4 members and some of the others did join very quickly after quest start.