Kappa Tau is by the Licori and as a BR colony I feel we can hold off. Also instead of Yrillian I would prefer Obar (race we meet through Honiani), Honiani (who can hit 300 with a diplo push for extra income), or Laio who are at 86 and can affiliate with a push, plus we have the random roll for one of the non affiliates which could change things (moving Ked Peddah or Obar into affiliate range). Also would we use the added berths next year or are they for repairs?

We're building an Outpost at Kappa Tau and it's likely to be the nerve center of the permanent Licori Border Zone (and don't think we'll get away with not having one). I figure we might as well have a mine there, especially as it also gets us pp and rp due to technologies.

I am extremely against pushing the Obar because they're so goddamn far away. It takes months just to get diplomatic missions there. The Laio are maybe a better option.

The berths are for repairs and loaning out as needed. If we're ever planning to get that Industrial Park, it makes sense to build up UP a little more.
 
I'm pretty sure the Sydraxians are no longer covered by the Treaty of Celos. Would a diplopush on them represent supporting the rise of a friendly regime?

If so, we need to push the Sydraxians.

I don't believe that's something we need or even can spend political will to make happen. The Sydraxians are outside the realm of routine Starfleet requests for greater diplomatic attention that the Snakepit pushes represent. Instead we've been told that the FDS has taken a direct hand with them, and is presumably 'pushing' to the level that is reasonably possible.
 
On Sydraxian, Graterians and Yrillians-
Right now the Yrillians are neutral with contacts with us and the Cardassian sphere. However their contacts their are mainly through the Sydraxians and we were told in the past that a lot of them would fight with the Sydraxians against us. Furthermore they are part of the fake piracy ops against the Graterians which is letting the Sydraxians charge them protection money. Anything dealing with the Graterians needs to account for both the Sydraxians and Yrillians. Now though we have a Yrillian ship brining their Sydraxian friends to meet with us. In doing so we can possibly get the Sydraxians to neutral or leaning in our favor which would swing the Yrillians towards us. Once we have done that we can then work things out between those two and the Graterians. As such I favor waiting until next year before pushing the Graterians.


We're building an Outpost at Kappa Tau and it's likely to be the nerve center of the permanent Licori Border Zone (and don't think we'll get away with not having one). I figure we might as well have a mine there, especially as it also gets us pp and rp due to technologies.

I am extremely against pushing the Obar because they're so goddamn far away. It takes months just to get diplomatic missions there. The Laio are maybe a better option.

The berths are for repairs and loaning out as needed. If we're ever planning to get that Industrial Park, it makes sense to build up UP a little more.
So the berths would be okay to put on the chopping block if we get new options? For the pushes than the Honiani (it gets them to 300 between the annual roll and rolls from pushes), Laio (they are at 86 thanks to the half push we did), or Ked Peddah (more so if we get any relation boosts with them to try to get them into affiliate status or range).

Also I know I would like an offensive doctrine team so we can start research on those.
 
I'm Leary of custom 'plans' or 'pushes' from now on.

I distinctly remember the last one went from 'buy freighters from the Yrillians' to 'hand over our transport infrastructure to the Yrillians.'
 
You can be leery of it, but you got to do it. There's going to be a big ole' "Sousa proposal" vote in the Snakepit with the directions "players to fill in here" and you can either step forward and suggest something or other players will do it instead.

Allow me to clarify. I backed the plan I mentioned because I didn't read the fine print or notice the change in wording.
 
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For a Sousa Plan, hmm. I'm guessing diplomacy with the Licori noble houses is outside of our jurisdiction. The Sydraxians, likewise.

Either something to improve anti-mentat security along the LBZ, or some sort of infrastructure boost to support the Caitian entrance into the GBZ.
 
I was thinking of a Kneyesian stimulus package for the whole Federation intent on preventing any sort of post war economic slump in which we'd get a chunk of it devoted to a Starflert rearmament program (we do have to repair and replace our losses).
 
I was thinking of a Kneyesian stimulus package for the whole Federation intent on preventing any sort of post war economic slump in which we'd get a chunk of it devoted to a Starflert rearmament program (we do have to repair and replace our losses).

I don't think any of our members (the Gaeni aren't quite a member yet) have been at war footing long enough that the economy will definitely slump afterwards.
I do expect the Gaeni to have an economic slump.
 
I liked the Exchanges and Transfers Office for the MWCO Sousa deal idea. I am very ambivalent about this joint academy mutation though.



As such I favor waiting until next year before pushing the Graterians.

This is exactly the mistake that was made with Bajor. Push them now or forget about them.

We also have a good chance at getting the Yrillians over 300, which would make sense as part of a combined regional strategy. I'm probably going to vote to push both.
 
I was thinking of a Kneyesian stimulus package for the whole Federation intent on preventing any sort of post war economic slump in which we'd get a chunk of it devoted to a Starflert rearmament program (we do have to repair and replace our losses).

There won't be an economic slump in the Federation, since the highest mobilization level we had was "early mobilization: 125% of normal income, -1Qtr build time, open 25% of stockpile". That's not an unsustainable wartime economy. At most, it probably slowed down domestic growth (or whatever the equivalent is in UFP economics) and have minor lingering effects as governments return to full peacetime economy and top off the stockpiles. Betazed and Vulcan didn't even reach early mobilization - they only increased to normal peactime mobilization level.

In fact, the Amarkians for all intents and purposes jumped into limited mobilization in the aftermath of the Lironh bombing with a 50% increased income, and they managed to normalize that into the new peacetime economy mobilization level, because they increased mobilization by 50% again in 2315 ("Amarkians apparently declared that they are not content to cede the title of strongest member fleet to the Apiatan").

Only the Gaeni will suffer aftewards, and they're not part of the Federation yet. Licori obviously will suffer too - that's a foregone conclusion not just from losing a war but from having to reform their societal and economic underpinnings to something acceptable to the Federation and Ked Paddah.

edit: oops, remove word to make paragraph actually make sense
 
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I'm Leary of custom 'plans' or 'pushes' from now on.

I distinctly remember the last one went from 'buy freighters from the Yrillians' to 'hand over our transport infrastructure to the Yrillians.'

Actually, hand over our transport infrastructure to the Yrillians was the original idea like a good few weeks to months earlier OOC, and buy freighters from the Yrillians was a later version that never gained traction.
 
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Second...how should I put this? "If any government ever affiliates with us, then we own the souls of that entire species for all eternity" is both an unreasonable interpretation of what the treaty actually says, and ignores how international law typically works with regard to polities who undergo a regime change.

We don't know the nature of the regime change. "The government fell" could mean anything from revolution to a vote of no confidence in an electoral house. If all they've done is swapped what party is in charge then the Treaty of Celos sure as fuck still owns their souls, until such time as their government chooses to repeal the law agreeing to it or however they agreed to it internally in the first place.

I know. I don't care. We follow the letter of the law, not the self-serving Cardassian interpretation of its spirit. Otherwise there's no point in us having signed it.

There's no point in having signed it if we didn't care about Cardassian interpretation or intent. The treaty is entirely about Cardassian interpretation and intent. It is absolutely meaningless if all we care about is Federation interpretation or intent and if we took that view then we should burn the treaty right now.
 
For a Sousa Plan, hmm. I'm guessing diplomacy with the Licori noble houses is outside of our jurisdiction. The Sydraxians, likewise.

Either something to improve anti-mentat security along the LBZ, or some sort of infrastructure boost to support the Caitian entrance into the GBZ.

Dunno. If we end up having to help the new government, which we probably will, crafting a massive rebuild package under The Sousa Plan would be worthwhile.
 
Actually, here is what I was thinking for the Snakepit, based on 185 political will available,
  • Request Mining Colony at Piara V, 25br/yr base, 8pp, 4 turns
  • Request Mining Colony at Kappa Tau, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
  • Request Mining Colony at Cronulla VI - 5rp/yr (base), 8pp, 4 turns
  • Request development of Utopia Planitia, 28pp, (4 turns, gain 1 3mt, 1 1mt berth)
  • Request new Starbase I [Indoria - Apinae Sector] 15pp + 12pp = 27pp
  • Request Academy Development, 40pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
  • Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau (Sensors and Weapons), 20pp
  • Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species (Yrillians), 20pp
  • Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species (Ashidi), 20pp
That's 179. The Ashidi are the species we encountered being pressured by the Konen, if you recall.
Thats a good one. You have my vote for that one Briefvoice.
 
Snakepit planning:
- Academy expansion.
- I would support an auxiliary yard, high priority, if @OneirosTheWriter made one available in Snakepit. With our present one we're looking at about 30 years to make up our current deficit.
- Starbase at Indoria is crucial either this Snakepit or next.
- We need an Offensive Doctrine team. Heck, we need two, but one is good for now.
- The Cronulla colony is the only one I support. We only have two Starfleet engineering ships so we can only build two colonies. BR colonies are fairly pointless - PP bonuses are minor and the return rate is not efficient as I noted last Snakepit. I recommend only the Cronulla colony.
- Diplo pushes: Gretarians, Y'rillians, Ashidi, Obar in that order of priority
- Utopia Planitia expansion is fine, but I'd buy everything else first.

Sketching that out:
40pp Academy Expansion
27pp Indoria Starbase
20pp Offensive Doctrine / Weapons (or Sensors?) team
8pp Research Colony at Cronulla VI
20pp Gretarian push
20pp Y'rillian push
20pp Ashidi push
28pp UP Expansion

183 total
 
I'm kinda surprised I didn't get more of a reaction for the Stargazer's log - I thought that ice dragons flying around the cloud-tops of gas giants as gene-modded apex predators breathing toxic fumes was pretty metal :V
Sorry. There was so much sheer coolness and joy from just seeing a Captain's Log, plus we've been thinking astropolitics for so long, that we focused on the astropolitics. :(

A Gretarian push may be suboptimal at this time. Remember what happened when we tried to push Bajor while the Cardassians were distracted. I think we can win the Gretarians their freedom by appealing to the new Sydraxian government...
Glassware, the Cardies were distracted when we pushed Bajor. By contrast, the Sydraxians are in the middle of a civil war. There's a difference. Furthermore, the Cardassian fleet was strong and remained strong in 2310 and 2311, allowing them to contemplate aggressive moves on Bajor. The Sydraxian fleet has lost an enormous fraction of its overall strength quite recently. Furthermore, we have huge, highly active fleets quite nearby, and once the assault on Gammon is done we might very well be able to spare, say, a thirty-point task force plus some more member world ships to go protect the Gretarians from what's left of the Sydraxian navy.

As one of the people who argued against the Bajor push at the time, I honestly think this is NOT the same situation. And I have argued against pushing the Gretarians in the past when I did think the situation was similar.

We wasted the opportunity of Ghosts and Whispers by waiting a full year before using it. We would be making an identical mistake again if we did not take advantage now.
I'm not entirely sure that we could have pushed Bajor very hard in 2310 without the same thing happening. Affiliate status would still have been 'obstructed,' and the Cardassians would still have been able to send a fleet. Even if there was enough political chaos in their ranks to delay or disrupt the operation, we certainly don't have any evidence that they'd have remained disorganized if only we'd done the same thing faster than we did it historically.

I know. I don't care. We follow the letter of the law, not the self-serving Cardassian interpretation of its spirit. Otherwise there's no point in us having signed it.
Problem: We don't know the exact reading of the Treaty of Celos. We know only the summary Oneiros gave us, which almost certainly is not a full detailed representation of the 'letter of the law.'

We can't follow a law to the letter if we can't read the letters.

I don't view them as very important. They're basically the equivalent of a few resource colonies that the Sydraxians have. It would be nice the Sydraxians didn't have those resource colonies, but it's not something I worry a lot about.
Breaking up that protection racket is very likely to help us break up the entire threat on our coreward flank, @Briefvoice . It gives us a lot of information on the activities of the Yrillian pirates that have been working with pro-Cardassian/Sydraxian (Old Guard Sydraxian, that is) interests. It gives the Sydraxians more incentive to engage in peaceful trade and interaction with the outside galaxy. And it gives us a forward base from which we are well positioned to influence the power struggle within Sydraxian space in hopes of rendering the Sydraxians neutral instead of hostile.

What about 'when we may do so again', with 'so' referring to diplomatic talks, was not understandable?
Ah, I thought you meant 'the next time we have a chance to throw diplomats around in general.'

If you're saying "send Honiani to talk to Bajorans after the Treaty of Celos is no longer an issue..."

Well, think about what would have to happen first. One, the Treaty of Celos will have to be abrogated, which would likely entail war between us and the Cardassian Union and its allies. Two, the Bajorans have to be an independent entity for 'send diplomats to Bajor' to actually mean anything. Which means we'll need to have fought and won this war already, because you can be very sure that if the Cardassians win a war with us Bajor will be firmly enslaved, more and more so with each passing year.

By the time we can fight and defeat Cardassia, or by the time that the overall strategic picture changes enough to render the Treaty of Celos irrelevant for other reasons, any plans we make now will have changed unrecognizably.
 
I'm not entirely sure that we could have pushed Bajor very hard in 2310 without the same thing happening. Affiliate status would still have been 'obstructed,' and the Cardassians would still have been able to send a fleet. Even if there was enough political chaos in their ranks to delay or disrupt the operation, we certainly don't have any evidence that they'd have remained disorganized if only we'd done the same thing faster than we did it historically.

The full year difference can't have helped one bit, and I feel it would have made a massive difference. You can only be in political turmoil for so long. Like, if we give the Sydraxians a year, I think you'll agree that they'll be far and away more together than they are right now.



e: Can someone who understands our research figure out what specialty would actually benefit from being attached to an Offensive Doctrine team? I can understand in a bare-bones way but after Offensive Doctrine tree is finished is too far in the future for me to plan. Like, at first glance I would say Weapons, but our Weapons needs are short-term and we have generic teams working there...
 
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The full year difference can't have helped one bit, and I feel it would have made a massive difference.
The question is, were the Cardassians ever in so much political turmoil that they'd just stand there dazed and confused while we walked in and parked a big fleet around Bajor so that they couldn't just muscle in on the system? I don't think there's much evidence of that having happened. It could be that this was true. The trouble is proving it, not just because it's about a counterfactual, but because it requires one to stake out a very strong and lightly supported claim about the level of disruption in the Cardassian government. Especially since I'm not sure how much of that we actually knew with any confidence right away. We knew there were purges going on, but "undergoing purges" is not the same as "incapable of responding to a major diplomatic/strategic provocation that threatens to rip an affiliate out of their grasp.

You can only be in political turmoil for so long. Like, if we give the Sydraxians a year, I think you'll agree that they'll be far and away more together than they are right now.
They might be. On the other hand, the Sydraxian space fly apart at the seams the way Syria flew apart in real life after the Arab Spring. I don't know. A lot depends on the domestic perception of their current government and its war with the Federation, and the level of popular support people have for Cardassia and the war mobilization.
 
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