Restart it 2316.Q1 under every plan so far. Which is not under the scope of this year's Shipyard Ops vote.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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[X][NAME1] Iaspa
[X][NAME2] Erizzael
[X][BUILD] 2315 2 Excelsior-A, 1 Renaissance, 2 Miranda-A refits
[X][NAME2] Erizzael
[X][BUILD] 2315 2 Excelsior-A, 1 Renaissance, 2 Miranda-A refits
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Eh, that's not that relevant. The EC drive is primarily for getting us an FYM more quickly, which in turn frees up more crew for normal Starfleet. Both plans skirt the crew edge about equally.
The biggest deal is the 25pp cost.
Some of your summed stats are off. Regardless, it depends on where you put the dividing line. If it's 2321, then it's:
More Rennie plan:
1 Miranda-A
9 Rennies
2+4 E-A
= C90 H62 L84 / S65 P73 D83
vs Briefvoice's plan:
3 Miranda-A
5+2 Rennies
4+2 E-A
= C86 H58 L80 / S63 P67 D77
It's a constantly moving target.
?
A Kaldar is a Jaldun with 300kt module that requires a 1.5+mt berth rather than just a 1.2+mt berth.
edit: To be pedantic, we don't know for sure if it's a 300kt module. But we DO know that a Kaldar is 1.5mt ship, while the Jaldun is a 1.2mt ship.
That's a good point. We can decide on the more Renaissance vs Excelsior-A thing then.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
So, um...
I think @Briefvoice 's plan is
1) To start two Excelsior-As at Utopia Planitia in the berths cleared by Rru'ador and Voshev,
2) To do refits on the Miranda-class frigates Dryad and Calypso in the small berths at Vulcan, with the intent of starting a pair of Excelsior-As at Vulcan next year if possible.
3) To start a Renaissance in the small berth at Andor (which will start doing refits next year)
@lbmaian , how does your current proposal differ from this? It sounds like the differences are:
1) That you start a wave of three Rennies at Vulcan in 2315Q4, instead of starting Miranda refits there. This precludes building Excelsiors at Vulcan for the next few years, which is why you're pitching this as a "less explorers more cruisers" plan.
2) That you start a wave of Miranda refits at Lor'Vela (Andor), which would otherwise be building a single Renaissance in its small berth and leaving its large berth empty for the year in preparation to begin a refit on an Excelsior next year.
Honestly... I think I'd rather stick with Briefvoice's plan for now, although I may NOT want to start the Excelsior-As there in 2316 the way he currently (tentatively) plans to do.
Also...
Eddie Leslie, Looking at Briefvoice's Sheet...
[looks at plans, looks out the window at the Excelsior frame being assembled outside]
"Holy jumping Vegian catfish, you mean to tell me this one's for the Corps!?"
[Stands up, flexes his jaw.]
"Hang on. Gotta go motivate me some Tellarites."
I think @Briefvoice 's plan is
1) To start two Excelsior-As at Utopia Planitia in the berths cleared by Rru'ador and Voshev,
2) To do refits on the Miranda-class frigates Dryad and Calypso in the small berths at Vulcan, with the intent of starting a pair of Excelsior-As at Vulcan next year if possible.
3) To start a Renaissance in the small berth at Andor (which will start doing refits next year)
@lbmaian , how does your current proposal differ from this? It sounds like the differences are:
1) That you start a wave of three Rennies at Vulcan in 2315Q4, instead of starting Miranda refits there. This precludes building Excelsiors at Vulcan for the next few years, which is why you're pitching this as a "less explorers more cruisers" plan.
2) That you start a wave of Miranda refits at Lor'Vela (Andor), which would otherwise be building a single Renaissance in its small berth and leaving its large berth empty for the year in preparation to begin a refit on an Excelsior next year.
Honestly... I think I'd rather stick with Briefvoice's plan for now, although I may NOT want to start the Excelsior-As there in 2316 the way he currently (tentatively) plans to do.
Also...
Eddie Leslie, Looking at Briefvoice's Sheet...
[looks at plans, looks out the window at the Excelsior frame being assembled outside]
"Holy jumping Vegian catfish, you mean to tell me this one's for the Corps!?"
[Stands up, flexes his jaw.]
"Hang on. Gotta go motivate me some Tellarites."
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I don't see a reason why the berths would be specially made for the Jaldun when we know it's more or less the same hull that makes the Kaldar. It's more likely that their berths are mostly 1.5mt berths than 1.2mt berths. We don't build 2.4mt berths for the Excelsior.
No, as far as I can tell, my 2320.Q1 summed stats are accurate given the posted spreadsheet pictures and ignoring equivalent refits. Although, the later part of the build plans into 2321 (or even 2319 and 2320 for that matter) are not nearly as relevant because we can change things. Point is though that 9 Rennies is actually poorer in many ways than Miri-As and E-As.
The perhaps more relevant comparison is 2318.Q4, where it's 2 E-As, 6 Rennies, and 1 M-A compared to 4 E-As, 2 Rennies, and 3 M-As. C47 H34 L45 / S32 P37 D44 vs C47 H30 L43 / S36 P35 D40. Which is about a wash, too.
Plus, the garrison formula of an anchor ship (Excelsior), a covering ship (C-A or Rennie), and have our combat ships (Miri and Constie) do filler in potential fighting zones is a good one. I prefer it greatly to the one where we pack zones full of cruisers or generalist frigates that are at best adequate in single event response.
e: And if we're moving the target, in 2322 we get +2 E-A out of Briefvoice's plan that you don't have. So the difference is basically 2/3 of two EA's.
You only really see the differences when you look at the long term sheet.
Clearing Vulcan's three berths all at once allows a triple build of Rennies using Chen's bonus over the double build of E-As. The refits that Briefvoice does at Vulcan are deferred to Andor by lbmaian with identical timing. The other big difference is not starting two hungry E-As lets lbmaian order two Rennies at Betazed instead of two Miri-As that Briefvoice has planned.
The net is that BV is building 2 E-A and 2 M-A while lbmaian is building 4 Rennies (after subtracting more-or-less cloned ships). That's the big takeaway: do you want 2 E-A & 2-M-A or 4 Rennies.
The rest is mostly the same:
Once the two Vulcan 1mt berths are clear again both plans start another pair of Rennies there, and both would make a Rennie and the 1Q-finished Miri-A in Earth's 1mt berths in 2316.
The timing on both of their planned refits is literally identical except the Constellation, which lbmaian would refit in sets of 3 and Briefvoice in sets of 2 (although sets of 3 is possible for BV's plan, he just chooses not to).
BV has a Rennie planned in Apinae 1mt but I would suggest he move that to Betazed 1mt to keep the Apinae repair yard clear, the cost timing is almost identical and it will actually finish 1Q sooner as it will be a double build then.
As for the earlier EC ship, we have that choice regardless of build plan.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The comment I made about the Explorer Corps ship was mostly just a silly aside; Leslie probably knew from 2314Q2 when he took over the yard, but I didn't know that ship was (tentatively) slated for the Explorer Corps.
...
As to the rest, I think I favor the idea of leaving the Vulcan berths clear through 2315. This is not so much because of a desire to start a triple build of Renaissances though I wouldn't mind doing that. It's because we really, REALLY cannot predict how much repair work our fleet is going to need. Leaving more gaps in the schedule is very much desirable.
...
As to the rest, I think I favor the idea of leaving the Vulcan berths clear through 2315. This is not so much because of a desire to start a triple build of Renaissances though I wouldn't mind doing that. It's because we really, REALLY cannot predict how much repair work our fleet is going to need. Leaving more gaps in the schedule is very much desirable.
Well, it's a pretty direct difference between 2 E-A & 2 M-A vs 4 Rennie even if they're starting in 2316.Q1 over 2315.Q4. Still the same options, I don't mind deferring though.
Good idea. Moved!
EDIT: When the Apinae yard opens, I'm thinking we may start putting this message in for its build plan-
"Leave berth open. Auxiliary Command notified Apinae berths may be used for building auxiliary ships, with the understanding auxiliary builds will be auto-bumped for any Starfleet repairs."
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lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
We can focus on more Rennies next year instead of Excelsior-As. If so, the practical difference from my current "More Rennies" build plan is that the 3 Rennies would be built just one quarter later.
I can post some screensheets later.
My point is that I'm wondering why are analysts aren't being explicit and just giving us the damn berth sizes, instead of something as vague as "Jaldun-sized" berths, which may or may not allow Kaldar builds.
Your science stat sum was off. 1 Mir-A + 9 Rennies + 2 Excelsior-As is not S32. Didn't bother checking the other stats.
*sigh* If we do that, then you should also consider the +2 Renaissances in 2322 in the More Rennie plan. This is why I said it's a moving target and chasing it isn't very productive.
Not quite. The difference in Excelsior-As is that the resumption of 2 Excelsior-A production happens 2 years later. Meanwhile, BV's plan has 2 Renaissances delayed at least year as well while the "More Rennie" plan has them complete.
So maybe a better way of saying it is:
2 E-A & 2 M-A & 2 delayed Rennie
vs
4 Rennie & 2 delayed E-A
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A 4y delay of 3mt berths vs a 2y delay of 1mt berths, but sure.
As of EOY we have 183 political will. With one quarter worth of events and four EC ships, we might get as much as +17pp for a total of 200 at Snakepit.
- Request Mining Colony at Kappa Tau, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
- Request Mining Colony at Proxima Eridani, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
- Request Mining Colony at Piara V, 25br/yr base, 8pp, 4 turns
- Request Mining Colony at Cronulla VI - 5rp/yr (base), 8pp, 4 turns
- Request development of Utopia Planitia, 28pp, (4 turns, gain 1 3mt, 1 1mt berth)
- Request new Starbase I [Indoria - Apinae Sector] 15pp + 12pp = 27pp
- Request Academy Development, 40pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
- Request Refit Program for Constellation Cruiser class (pacifist build if available, cruiser build if not) - 18pp
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species (TBD), 20pp
- Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species (TBD), 20pp
The UP expansion is relatively quick and it gives us more slack for repairs or to revise our build schedule.
Probably because Oneiros wants to keep us guessing about the exact capabilities of the Cardassians as well as give us a reason to do intelligence reports?
Yeah? In mean it is not like those two statements are as contradictory as you make them out to be. It is entirely possible to get the initial report wrong and still be able to conduct some sort of successful diplomacy. I mean we know from experience that the FDS can need need quite some time to gather enough information to have an accurate picture of alien nations, even if they have easy access to secondary sources which isn't the case here, but we also know that the FDS can be surprisingly flexible and adaptive so I am quite optimistic that they would find a way to talk to Ittik-Ka. Accepting a preliminary, quasi first-contact brief as a fully complete and definitive study/the complete truth would be a mistake in my opinion.
Plus, if it was totally impossible I would expect Oneiros to denote it as such and not group it with the other nations/races...
- Location
- USA
I believe we want to add at least one tech team as well. Utopia may have to get put off for a year to free up PP for that. Doing so would let us do a listening post as well if we hit 200.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
We can go down the rabbit hole of comparing the exact berth delay differences, including all the builds and refits involved (e.g. the Constellation refit timing is actually heavily based off our SR safety threshold), but I'd rather not go there.
Ok, build plan comparison screenshots:
1 Rennie this year, 2 E-A & 1 Rennie & 2 M-A next year plan:
3 Rennie this year, 3 Rennie + 2 Constie-A refit next year plan (requires 25pp tho gets an FYM one year sooner):
1 Rennie this year, 5 Rennie + 2 Constie-A refit next year plan (requires 25pp tho gets an FYM one year sooner), 2315-compatible with the first plan here:
Shared: 2 E-A + 2 M-A refits this year, 1 continued M-A + 2 M-A refits + 1 E-A refit next year
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The analysts themselves may not know the answer to that question. It's entirely possible that when the Jalduns were the new big thing, the Cardassians built several berths sized specifically to fit them, but that all their post-2300 berth construction is sized for 1.5-megaton or larger ships.
In general, I would just like to assume that EITHER:
1) All Cardassian 'cruiser berths' should be assumed capable of building 1.5 or 1.8-megaton cruisers as well as the 1.2-megaton Jalduns, OR
2) If the Cardassians do indeed have a class of 1.2-megaton berths that cannot build Kaldars, Lorgots, or notional post-Jaldun cruiser designs... that 1.2-megaton berth is probably ALSO doing double duty as their frigate berth.
Because it would be kind of stupid for the Cardassians to deliberately construct berths that can't even accommodate all their current cruiser designs, and are almost certainly going to be unable to accommodate future cruiser designs... unless their long term plan is for those berths to be the home of the next generation of frigate design, rather than endless repetitions of the current 'workhorse' cruiser.
We tried one diplomatic push, it yielded no results, and we eventually got a report saying that the species was unwilling to accept further diplomatic contact. Now you want us to spend another 20 pp on the assumption that something will change? Hard to justify, especially given the many other useful targets for diplomatic pushes. As for grouping, Oneiros has a lot to track and sometimes doesn't keep everything updated.
I know we get side benefits for having colonies but 3x BR colonies is questionable given our massive BR stockpile. If we take just Piara V and leave 16 pp, we can buy one pretty big item from 20 to 30 pp.
- Location
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We get both RP and PP from the colonies, granted if we had the second colony core it becomes even better since those would be 4 years to pay themselves off.
The Washington Naval treaty limited Japan to 60% of the United States and Great Britain, ended the GB/J naval alliance, and forbade any fortifications of their new possessions in the Marianas. The 70% mark was their own internal 'bare minimum' to hold off the US Pacific and Atlantic fleets arriving sequentially, and a rallying cry for those who had supported the 8-8 fleet that the delegation to the treaty had betrayed them. We know in hindsight that this was a shrewd gambit but, it didn't look like that to the Japanese Navy. Instead, it looked like humiliation, and the London treaty, which effectively forbade them from building new Heavy Cruisers and Special-type destroyers, was a further humiliation. And the US was clearly in the thrall of an economic crisis. It looked like time to make a move. Naval parity is not something that is bestowed upon good boys and girls, one must seize empire with both hands. The Iron Chancellor can carve Germany out with three swift wars. The whole point of being a militaristic nation is to redress your weaknesses by force of arms. What alternative do you suggest to ensure the ascendancy of Japan given the situation they found themselves in?
Like, I know the US outproduced the Japanese, you don't need to lecture me on this. But 'planning for capabilities' leads you to believe things like 'the Japanese can't win a war against us, therefore they won't attack and we can apply more diplomatic pressure.' Does that make things a bit more clear to you? The Japanese thought in terms of a quick smash-and-grab campaign, a firm demonstration of their might, and a settlement. They got total war. But all of the war goals I have seen for the Cardassaians involve something far less than total war-a small cabinet war, where our overall industrial capabilities might mean far less than the individual genius of our commanders or the quality of the units we send. Intentions and Capability are interdependent, and any attempt to assess the Japanese attack on Pearl harbor in terms of capability alone will come to the conclusion 'they were crazy'.
In our current situation, if I were the Cardassians, I'd try to loop down below our rimward border, and get in contact with the Klingons to block our expansion in that direction, while pushing Corewards and Spinwards as hard as I can. It's a plan with a payoff in about 30 years or so, when the Federation, forced to expand in only one direction for the last two decades, finally caves in under a massively expanded Cardassian Empire. But that would be my strategy-and it depends a lot on the Federation not having the Intention to start a fight over Bajor or some other matter on the border.
Right now they're 9y including their 1y build time, and 9y is a long enough time that I'm not madkeen on grabbing them quite so quickly. And two colonies don't even make a full research team activation.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm... how about a build plan that takes one of the Miranda refits Briefvoice has scheduled to begin at Vulcan in 2315Q3 and instead does it in the three-megaton berth at Lor'Vela, starting in 2315Q1, while postponing the other? That way, we have all four berths at Vulcan clearing out over the course of the year, and in 2316Q1 we'll be in the perfect position to decide what we want to do with that shipyard in terms of repairs, constructions, explorers versus cruisers, and so on.
Given how close Vulcan is to the war zone, the fact that every single one of its currently scheduled construction projects would be finishing up anyway over the course of this year is something of a godsend, so we might as well take advantage of it.
Given how close Vulcan is to the war zone, the fact that every single one of its currently scheduled construction projects would be finishing up anyway over the course of this year is something of a godsend, so we might as well take advantage of it.
We might be able to make a Deal with development to trade away some surplus BR colonies to member states, which will probably be Win-win.
Except the Cardassians really can't do that.
The Federation can "expand" by recruiting new starfaring races to join it. The Cardassians are the Cardassians. They can develop new clients, but those clients will always be reluctant allies who chafe at their second class status. The Cardassians themselves can only acquire more major worlds by the slow, steady process of planting minor colonies and developing them into major worlds over many, many decades. There are sharp limits to their ability to rapidly expand.
- Location
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Maybe, but the longer we delay the longer it takes for them to make up their PP cost, and sometimes 4 RP is all we need. As it is I would like at least 2 mining colonies a year, though any RP and SR colonies we find should be taken. Hopefully we find an SR colony this quarter.