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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Well, if we could build both, I would certainly prefer the Renaissance.

We can't build the Renaissance yet, though, and I prefer the refit Constitution to the other lighter ships that could be built. The Constitution will stay useful and releveant for a long time, and as we don't have an urgent need for ships right now, the four year construction time doesn't hurt much.
 
Gingganz said:
Well, if we could build both, I would certainly prefer the Renaissance.

We can't build the Renaissance yet, though, and I prefer the refit Constitution to the other lighter ships that could be built. The Constitution will stay useful and releveant for a long time, and as we don't have an urgent need for ships right now, the four year construction time doesn't hurt much.
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You kinda missed the part where we only have one in service, so a refit for only one ship is rather inefficient. And since we're doing the Rennie next year at the latest, and it will take at least one year for the refit package for the Connie to even be developed, building more refit Connies is something that doesn't strike me as wise.
 
tryrar said:
The T4 kinda hurts since we're already struggling on techs. Plus, we actually only have exactly one Constituition still in service, and even with this refit package I'm not sure we want to build more, which makes this thing kinda moot

Edit: Plus, the Rennies have better survivability with that extra shield, and -1S&P still leaves it with decent science and presense for random encounters. Overall any sort of refit Connie is still not as good as a Rennie due to cost and build time
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Well, the idea would be to make more and not do the Renaissance for a long time. That's right, cut the Renaissance as unnecessary when its role can be filled with Constitutions. Really, I think in turns of stats for cost the ships are about equal. +1 Stats (1 S + 1 P - 1 L = 1) is worth an extra 20 sr. The only place the Renaissance is superior is in its build time, which is admittedly important.

As for the Shields, I could just as well say that the extra bit of survivability is unlikely to make much of a difference for random encounters, while the superior science and presence might. As for Techs, Techs are what you have to pay if you want more Science. We've already adjust the Academy intake, so it'll be all right.
 
Ok guys, look: It takes a year and a half to develop the refit package in the first place(going by how the other refits are worded), plus a year of dock-time to refit the ship once the refit package is done. Since the refit package takes 1.5 years, that means we don't start refit until at least 2 years after we start the program, and another year for that refit to be done. That means the single Connie doesn't get refit until we're ready to start building the protoype for the Rennie(assuming we start that program next year and it takes 2 years total for us to design it). Even in the worst case and it takes 4 years for the Rennie to be designed, we'd still be able to pump out the prototype just as the first new refit Connie is built, rendering the whole thing moot since the Rennie is so much cheaper to build, especially since refit packages add costs to the base design.
 
tryrar said:
Ok guys, look: It takes a year and a half to develop the refit package in the first place(going by how the other refits are worded), plus a year of dock-time to refit the ship once the refit package is done. Since the refit package takes 1.5 years, that means we don't start refit until at least 2 years after we start the program, and another year for that refit to be done. That means the single Connie doesn't get refit until we're ready to start building the protoype for the Rennie(assuming we start that program next year and it takes 2 years total for us to design it). Even in the worst case and it takes 4 years for the Rennie to be designed, we'd still be able to pump out the prototype just as the first new refit Connie is built, rendering the whole thing moot since the Rennie is so much cheaper to build, especially since refit packages add costs to the base design.
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Or we could wait another 10 years and do another couple of rounds of Light Cruiser research and then build a ship that's a far superior version of the Renaissance with much better stats, building Constitutions in the mean time.

The main argument here is that a Renaissance would only be a very minor improvement (in some ways and in some ways inferior) over a ship we can already build, and therefore it makes more sense to wait longer and shoot for the moon on a light cruiser while building the ship we can already build in the meantime.
 
What the hell are you talking about? The Rennie is better in most every way to the Connie. Spending pp, resources, and time to make a Connie slightly better in some ways to a Rennie makes no sense.

Look, we're not in a rush, it's true, but that doesn't mean we should be trying to squash square pegs in round holes to avoid doing the Rennie project for some fucktard reason.
 
Yea, I'm not at all interested in delaying the Renaissance an entire decade for a Constitution refit that's inferior in the more vital areas for a Light Cruiser: build time, cost, and Shields.

The Science and Presence are nice, but don't come close to making up for that.

If we want to improve something while we work on the Renaissance, just refit all the Constellations we all ready have.
 
Hmm... could we actually make a better version of the renny if hold off for a couple of years? Especially if the XP dump into the cruiser research team is carried out?

I ask because with a level 6 research team we'd be getting 12 research a turn into the design techs. Five years holding off should mean we have level 3 nested research tech completed in some areas of cruiser tech research.
 
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Derek58 said:
Yea, I'm not at all interested in delaying the Renaissance an entire decade for a Constitution refit that's inferior in the more vital areas for a Light Cruiser: build time, cost, and Shields.

The Science and Presence are nice, but don't come close to making up for that.

If we want to improve something while we work on the Renaissance, just refit all the Constellations we all ready have.
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Actually, the best value refit we can do(even though we only have a few of them) is the Centaur, Which makes it an escort that is superior in every way to a Consta at the cost of being more expensive than a Consta. Sure, the Miranda refit makes it more survivable than a baseline Centaur, but it also makes it almost just as expensive as a Centaur, and it only improves 3 stats for 20/10, while the Centaur refit improves 4 stats(including defense!) for 15/15, and all the refit packages have the same pp cost, so going for the most value for the pp we spend makes sense.

SuperSonicSound said:
Hmm... could we actually make a better version of the renny if hold off for a couple of years? Especially if the XP dump into the cruiser research team is carried out?
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Well, the discussion I just had lays out the fact that refit packages are a thing, so doing things like refitting connies so we can wait on rennies to improve them with several levels of tech gain make no sense, since we can just refit them as appropriate. This also means I don't see any point of holding off after we nab all the level one techs on the cruiser tree(with maybe making a decision on waiting for the module tech)
 
tryrar said:
Well, the discussion I just had lays out the fact that refit packages are a thing, so doing things like refitting connies so we can wait on rennies to improve them with several levels of tech gain make no sense, since we can just refit them as appropriate. This also means I don't see any point of holding off after we nab all the level one techs on the cruiser tree(with maybe making a decision on waiting for the module tech)
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Is there a QM post describing the refit process? Would we need to put a research team on a refit project for it as I feel that would make that process rather less appealing. On the other hand if that isn't the case you're probably right.

Edit: Ignore the previous incoherent nonsense, not fully with it today due to pain medication.
 
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MS-21H 'Hawke' said:
one thing I noticed is that we don't have a replacement for the Oberth for about 70 in game years.
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That's because the Oberth is an extremely specialized ship, and those are dangerous to have when any ship could run into any mission. I get the idea it was created mostly at the direction of the Federation Council because they were really into the idea of having a Science Ship.
 
anon_user said:
Or the Mirandas?
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I'd have to say no to the Miranda refit personally. It doesn't increase their Defense, which is probably our most important stat for the ships not out on 5 year missions or stationed at a Border Zone IMO.

tryrar said:
Actually, the best value refit we can do(even though we only have a few of them) is the Centaur, Which makes it an escort that is superior in every way to a Consta at the cost of being more expensive than a Consta. Sure, the Miranda refit makes it more survivable than a baseline Centaur, but it also makes it almost just as expensive as a Centaur, and it only improves 3 stats for 20/10, while the Centaur refit improves 4 stats(including defense!) for 15/15, and all the refit packages have the same pp cost, so going for the most value for the pp we spend makes sense.
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True, but we'd get a much wider benefit from the Constellation refit since we've got 7 of them compared to just 2 for the Centaur.
 
I'm not sure...you might wanna ask Oneiros about that....


Actually, yeah, I'll ask him.

@OneirosTheWriter once we choose a refit package to do, is that a research project that gets generated? Or given how it's worded, is it something that gets automatically developed in the background, and we just have to worry about yard time once we have the refit available? Finally, IIRC you said refits do increase base costs of the ship. Is that true or am I misremembering?

Derek58 said:
I'd have to say no to the Miranda refit personally. It doesn't increase their Defense, which is probably our most important stat for the ships not out on 5 year missions or stationed at a Border Zone IMO.

True, but we'd get a much wider benefit from the Constellation refit since we've got 7 of them compared to just 2 for the Centaur.
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8, we're finishing up a build of one remember? You do have a point there on that though
 
Okay, closing vote on the shipyard ops. Twin Excelsiors it is.

tryrar said:
@OneirosTheWriter once we choose a refit package to do, is that a research project that gets generated? Or given how it's worded, is it something that gets automatically developed in the background, and we just have to worry about yard time once we have the refit available? Finally, IIRC you said refits do increase base costs of the ship. Is that true or am I misremembering?
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No research project, it is just an ordinary Council project. Cost of new builds of the refitted design go up for the normal BR, but half the SR refit cost is tacked on to the price tag for new ships.
 
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OneirosTheWriter said:
Okay, closing vote on the shipyard ops. Twin Excelsiors it is.
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We are certainly living up to the idea of the Lone Ranger doctrine with this Excelsior push.

Cost of new builds of the refitted design go up for the normal BR, but half the SR refit cost is tacked on to the price tag for new ships.
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That's good to know! Maybe you could tack that on to the options next time you post them, because I think lots of us were assuming the total refit cost would be added to all new ships.
 
Briefvoice said:
We are certainly living up to the idea of the Lone Ranger doctrine with this Excelsior push.
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Currently Under Construction:

1 Excelsior-class @ San Francisco Fleet Yards (ETC 2310.Q1 - Crews deduct 2309.Q1)
1 Constellation-class @ San Francisco Fleet Yards (ETC 2307.Q1 - Crews deduct 2306.Q1)

1 Excelsior-class @ 40 Eridani A Berth A (ETC 2307.Q4 - Crews deduct 2306.Q4) - Progress started 2303.Q2, suspended 2304.2Q - Currently 1 year complete - Recommenced 2304.Q4)
1 Excelsior-class @ 40 Eridani A Berth B (ETC 2310.Q1 - Crews deduct 2309.Q1)

1 Excelsior-class @ Ana Font Shipyard (ETC 2309.Q1 - Crewd deduct 2308.Q1)

Pattern detected :V
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Hmm... could we actually make a better version of the renny if hold off for a couple of years? Especially if the XP dump into the cruiser research team is carried out?

I ask because with a level 6 research team we'd be getting 12 research a turn into the design techs. Five years holding off should mean we have level 3 nested research tech completed in some areas of cruiser tech research.
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It's hard if we want to keep the tonnage below 1mt due to the stat over scale penalty, but if you are willing to go above that we can design a cruiser (or mini-explorer) with 3 years build time but stats better than an excelsior and only somewhere between half and two thirds of the resource cost. Or go all the way to better than Ambassador for half of the cost of one of those (needs tier 4 design savings though so the project would take a few years). A tonnage in the region of 1.5 to 2mt seems to be a sweet spot.
 
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Ok @Briefvoice , I'd say at this point you're better served doing the xp reward than the connie refit, since it seems you're just about the only one who wants to do it. The rest of us want to do the Centaur or Contsa refit, since that gives better immediate value than refitting one ship we'll likely never build more of.
 
tryrar said:
Ok @Briefvoice , I'd say at this point you're better served doing the xp reward than the connie refit, since it seems you're just about the only one who wants to do it. The rest of us want to do the Centaur or Contsa refit, since that gives better immediate value than refitting one ship we'll likely never build more of.
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I think it's too late to change my mind. Bonus is already listed on the front page.
 
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