Unless I'm missing something, I don't think the order in which we get assets matters that much - we're not getting another internal diplomacy team to increase mobilization rate further, and we plan to get everything we want anyway next month.
The only thing we're getting that may prove to be extraneous IMO is the cargo ship, but that's only 2pt of war support which is small potatoes.
An argument can be made that if we're talking shop on diplomacy with N'Gir, we should follow through with that on our end immediately, but eh, I have doubts that it matters that much.
An argument can be made that if we're talking shop on diplomacy with N'Gir, we should follow through with that on our end immediately, but eh, I have doubts that it matters that much.
Some of us are displeased that President N'Gir disregarded peaceful diplomatic approaches in her rush to be seen as decisive; this could be our version of a rebuke. Diplomacy is the Federation's not-so-secret weapon, and we should be leveraging it as much as possible.
If you think about it, where secret superweapons might destroy a world or even an entire start system, diplomacy outright folds nations consisting of worlds into the Federation, at a marginal comprative cost. Insane and OP, in comparision.
I'm curious to know what new information there would've changed your mind. The stuff that reinforced my decision is more about confirmation of known logistics details that are apparent from the GBZ status post. There's a lot of useful details there, including an outpost that's being constructed for reference!
The other half of that sentence got swallowed. It would have read something like
"A lot of information has been revealed about cargo and logistics that I either didn't know 24 hours ago, or got swallowed up in a confused blur when it was originally revealed to me."
I have not, so far, taken for granted that the number of freighters we had for the campaign at its start would automatically be more than enough, I was concerned that maybe our reserve of transportation capacity in theater was not great since we know freighter shortages are an issue for the Federation. If the LBZ fleet already started out greatly oversupplied in terms of freighters, that is from my point of view new information.
I'm going to be honest right now, my head hurts and I'm on the edge of deciding the sheer spreadsheetiness of this game is so great that my even trying to participate in it on literally any level is just a way of borrowing unnecessary pain. If you want to taunt me for not having followed along with you 'properly' as you reverse-engineered how cargo ships work or something... Go ahead, but it's going to increase the chances that I just request a thread-ban and try to get on with my life.
I've got a master's degree in physics and years of being the finicky math person in almost every group I become a part of... and despite that I can't even make myself put in the mental sweat to understand how some of the component rulesets of this game work. FIrst it was ship design, then research, now it's logistics.
I'm of the opinion that we need lots of diplomatic teams, both internally and externally focused. There are several Arcadian Great Houses that will need to be diplomatically maneuvered either simultaneously or in quick succession; we also need to shore up internal support across several Federation member populations. We need to begin shoring up that internal support before going whole-hog on the industrial and engineering push.
I think we need a diplomatic team and some sort of infrastructure-related team every turn from here on.
If not having this particular group of external diplomats two weeks sooner would cripple us, our diplomatic effort was doomed anyway. We can't diplomance everybody at once in a two week deadline, or even a two month deadline, even if we do get a new team every month.
We have to assume that the civilian officials will have some tiny level of competence and will make efforts that at least exist. So that when we literally beg the president to work on diplomatic issue X, she makes an effort to work on X and X proceeds or at least doesn't stall out and become impossible to achieve while we're struggling to set up our own infrastructure.
We are forced to assume that minimum level of competence- that SOMETHING will happen when our back is turned.
I'm not saying you have to want to assume that, since there's been a lot of criticism of the FDS in this thread in the past few days.
The thing is, it doesn't matter. Even if you don't want to assume it and want us in Starfleet to do everything ourselves in the opening months of this crisis, we can't, even if we try super-hard. We are forced to assume the FDS can at least 'fight the good fight' long enough for us to bring our own diplomatic efforts on line while simultaneously doing a certain minimum to make sure no Licori ship pulls a T'Mir on our border systems.
So there comes a point at which we have to do the things only we can do, even if they're not the things we do best or if we don't trust the people who will be doing them instead of us. Even if our logic crushes the giant robot's tiny soul.
The other half of that sentence got swallowed. It would have read something like
"A lot of information has been revealed about cargo and logistics that I either didn't know 24 hours ago, or got swallowed up in a confused blur when it was originally revealed to me."
I have not, so far, taken for granted that the number of freighters we had for the campaign at its start would automatically be more than enough, I was concerned that maybe our reserve of transportation capacity in theater was not great since we know freighter shortages are an issue for the Federation. If the LBZ fleet already started out greatly oversupplied in terms of freighters, that is from my point of view new information.
I'm going to be honest right now, my head hurts and I'm on the edge of deciding the sheer spreadsheetiness of this game is so great that my even trying to participate in it on literally any level is just a way of borrowing unnecessary pain. If you want to taunt me for not having followed along with you 'properly' as you reverse-engineered how cargo ships work or something... Go ahead, but it's going to increase the chances that I just request a thread-ban and try to get on with my life.
I've got a master's degree in physics and years of being the finicky math person in almost every group I become a part of... and despite that I can't even make myself put in the mental sweat to understand how some of the component rulesets of this game work. FIrst it was ship design, then research, now it's logistics.
Well logistics is pretty much the new kid on the game mechanics block, apart from revised SOE mechanics. So publicly new that Oneiros is probably still messing around with it. In this case, it's actually not a "spreadsheetiness" problem; it's that the info on it is not so obvious to find. Until recently, the bulk of it was in the GBZ status post and that post keeps changing so we lose snapshots of logistics progress. Then there was the misc posts on what the auxiliaries contribute, some of which were actually in the SBD thread rather than here.
I was just making the assumption that since you were pushing for more logistics in the plan, that you would, well, have researched it and taken my concerns into account (I didn't just come up with those small cargo and bulk cargo numbers blindly!). In hindsight, I probably should've just linked the GBZ status page or quoted the relevant sections of it, and more clearly tallied up the fleet requirements.
Not having them a year ago has already crippled our diplomatic efforts, given how the FDS dislikes the idea of negotiating with multiple parties in the Arcadian Empire at one time. We need to kick the FDS in the butt, and setting up a combo-attack with President N'Gir also pushing diplomacy will be more effective at doing so.
You're right to say we need to focus on what we can do that others can't, but we cannot afford to neglect diplomatic options - without them, all the outposts we build on the border won't stop someone deep in Arcadian space from flipping everyone the bird and cooking off a star.
Unless I misunderstand, the heavy industry team should also help accelerate construction of that starbase over Betazed, providing additional sensor coverage that we desperately need. We need that ready soonest, but I don't think there's any disagreement on that front.
I have no comprehension of what you think is going on that can be described as "hard decisions for the sake of the hard decision." If it's about what I just said, that isn't 'hard decisions.' Certainly not the stereotypical 'cold equations, sacrifice X lives to achieve Y result' nonsense people call by that name. Nobody's getting written off here. It's not about 'hard decisions.' It's about a basic mundane thing that normal people deal with every day. Something like:
"Alice has two jobs. They're both important. Job 1 is done by both Alice and Bob, Job 2 is done by Alice alone. What are the consequences of Alice focusing exclusively on Job 1, versus Alice trying to balance Job 1 and Job 2 and alternate between them?"
The answer is something like "If Alice focuses on Job 1, we had better hope Job 2 wasn't important after all, because it won't get done. If Alice flips back and forth between the two jobs, Job 1 will get done slower, but at least Job 2 will get done at all."
I was just making the assumption that since you were pushing for more logistics in the plan, that you would, well, have researched it and taken my concerns into account (I didn't just come up with those small cargo and bulk cargo numbers blindly!). In hindsight, I probably should've just linked the GBZ status page or quoted the relevant sections of it, and more clearly tallied up the fleet requirements.
What I knew from observation and research was that we've had occasions in the past where we urgently needed more freighters for the GBZ in order to do important things, and that we had at least one option already where we'd very much like to recruit a certain team, but could not do so until we'd conscripted freighters to do so. Based on precedent, I anticipated similar developments arising in the future, and thought it desirable to prepare against this need, given that we can't bank "cost" and spend the two or four points on something else later.
I suppose I could have done my own homework and due diligence a bit harder, but honestly at this point I'd be pleasantly surprised to learn that there are more than about five people out of the dozens on this thread who have a clear picture of how and why the logistics rules work as they do. At the time I posted my plan none of them seemed to be weighing in, so I tried to strike a balance. In hindsight (and I know I didn't articulate this very well) the main reason I didn't just flip over to "Grey Lady" yesterday was because I'd be giving up the runabouts, not because I was married to the idea of grabbing that cargo ship. I was ambivalent about it at times, but that was weighing on my mind.
[Note, I am here using 'freighter' as shorthand for 'freighters and cargo ships,' because I can't think of a third terms that includes both without also including other categories of ship that should not be included]
[Note, I am here using 'freighter' as shorthand for 'freighters and cargo ships,' because I can't think of a third terms that includes both without also including other categories of ship that should not be included]
I have no comprehension of what you think is going on that can be described as "hard decisions for the sake of the hard decision." If it's about what I just said, that isn't 'hard decisions.' Certainly not the stereotypical 'cold equations, sacrifice X lives to achieve Y result' nonsense people call by that name. Nobody's getting written off here. It's not about 'hard decisions.' It's about a basic mundane thing that normal people deal with every day. Something like:
"Alice has two jobs. They're both important. Job 1 is done by both Alice and Bob, Job 2 is done by Alice alone. What are the consequences of Alice focusing exclusively on Job 1, versus Alice trying to balance Job 1 and Job 2 and alternate between them?"
The answer is something like "If Alice focuses on Job 1, we had better hope Job 2 wasn't important after all, because it won't get done. If Alice flips back and forth between the two jobs, Job 1 will get done slower, but at least Job 2 will get done at all."
Not having them a year ago has already crippled our diplomatic efforts, given how the FDS dislikes the idea of negotiating with multiple parties in the Arcadian Empire at one time. We need to kick the FDS in the butt, and setting up a combo-attack with President N'Gir also pushing diplomacy will be more effective at doing so.
Again, we are forced to believe that FDS is actually trying to do their job on some minimal level that enables us to do the things that are unambiguously, exclusively our own job. We may need to concentrate extra effort helping the FDS out over and above what we devote to the only-us job, but that is after we do our own job that only we can do.
You're right to say we need to focus on what we can do that others can't, but we cannot afford to neglect diplomatic options - without them, all the outposts we build on the border won't stop someone deep in Arcadian space from flipping everyone the bird and cooking off a star.
Neither will diplomacy, realistically, not for months. We need time to do everything, and if this crisis is so pressing that a fortnight isn't available, we're screwed no matter which option we take.
Unless I misunderstand, the heavy industry team should also help accelerate construction of that starbase over Betazed, providing additional sensor coverage that we desperately need. We need that ready soonest, but I don't think there's any disagreement on that front.
It is, as far as I can tell, purely a question of relative emphasis. The "Lady" plans emphasize industrial preparations this specific turn, while the "11th hour" plan emphasized diplomacy.
How are you getting 14 freighters and 48 cargo ships? I think you might have flipped some numbers around.
Starfleet likely has had 12 cargo ships and 4 freighters since at least mid 2300s, assuming none were constructed since Rogers was forcefully retired, and has been federalizing auxiliary ships to keep up with demand, resulting in growing Development faction dissatisfaction that culminated in the 2310 snakepit deal that led to the Amarki auxiliary shipyard being constructed.
You are correct, I bobbled on the cargo math.
The original post has been edited to correct this.
edit: That said, it may be normal for Starfleet to be closer to 100% logistics capacity than the member nations, relying on the ability to draw on member merchant marine. So maybe only need 20% or so more than current capacity to avoid annoying member fleets?
20% more than current capacity should be at 10% spare (50% spare being when we have a spare ship for every one in use, or 100% more than current)
Actual Support Fleet (Cargo)
Actual Support Fleet (Freight)
Used Support Fleet (cargo)
Used Support Fleet (Freight)
Spare Shipping (% of total)
Cargo Ships Needed
Freighters Needed
Slip Years (Cargo)
Slip Years (Freight)
Slip Years (Total)
12
4
20
9
0%
8
5
16
15
31
12
4
20
9
5%
10
6(5.9)
20
18
38
12
4
20
9
10%
12
7(6.8)
24
21
45
12
4
20
9
15%
14
8(7.7)
28
24
52
12
4
20
9
20%
16
9(88.6)
32
27
59
12
4
20
9
25%
18
10(9.5)
36
30
66
12
4
20
9
30%
20
11(10.4)
40
33
73
12
4
20
9
35%
22
12(1.3)
44
36
80
12
4
20
9
40%
24
13(12.2)
48
39
87
12
4
20
9
45%
26
14(13.1)
52
42
94
12
4
20
9
50%
28
14
56
42
98
Anyone on a narrower screen than me, I apologize.
So that's 12 Cargo ships and 7 freighters according to my spreadsheet. With a total of 45 slip years of build time.
that we had at least one option already where we'd very much like to recruit a certain team, but could not do so until we'd conscripted freighters to do so
Er, which one? I don't recall this, and if it really was the case, then I should know about it. (Because this could invalidate my earlier claim that we'd historically always had the option of getting the logistics we'd need albeit at a price.)
I suppose I could have done my own homework and due diligence a bit harder, but honestly at this point I'd be pleasantly surprised to learn that there are more than about five people out of the dozens on this thread who have a clear picture of how and why the logistics rules work as they do. At the time I posted my plan none of them seemed to be weighing in, so I tried to strike a balance. In hindsight (and I know I didn't articulate this very well) the main reason I didn't just flip over to "Grey Lady" yesterday was because I'd be giving up the runabouts, not because I was married to the idea of grabbing that cargo ship. I was ambivalent about it at times, but that was weighing on my mind.
It is, as far as I can tell, purely a question of relative emphasis. The "Lady" plans emphasize industrial preparations this specific turn, while the "11th hour" plan emphasized diplomacy.
Actually the impression I got was that both plans had a separate set of assumptions:
The "Lady" plans assumed that the FDS is not incompetent and can do external diplomacy without our direct prodding.
The "11th hour" plan assumed that all the mustering forces in the LBZ are not incompetent and that their weight in numbers could handle patrol duties adequately.
Both plans involved getting a heavy industry team to be allocated for the Betazed starbase. The "11th hour" plan lacked an engineering team, partially out of the assumption that they would've be able to start construction of an outpost anyway without heavy industry support, or that a month delay isn't significant.
The "Grey Lady" plan variant and the "11th hour" plan also assumed that getting a doctrine team sooner is better than getting [more, in the "Grey Lady" case] runabouts sooner.
Cargo ship: 8 small cargo, 2 bulk cargo - the workhorse that's also generally responsible for supplying fleets and other assets
Freighter: 4 small cargo, 10 bulk cargo - optimal for ferrying around resources
Engineering ships: 2 small cargo, 2 bulk cargo, 3 "special rating" for task speed, 4X speed for engineering tasks - used for constructing and repairing (space) stuff (edit: to be more specific, it's implied that they can do light repairs, and are responsible for towing more severely damaged ships to be repaired at starbases/berths)
[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[X][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to hold off and investigate further
[X] Plan Iron Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: One Cargo Ship (2 Cost from Tellar)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from Vulcan: 1 Oberth (1 cost from Vulcan)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from Rigel: 1 Oda-Gach (1 cost from Rigel)
-[X] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
Captain's Log, USS Dryad, Stardate 25650.4
The SS Ray of Okatha, a Honiani freighter, has reported a blow out of the starboard warp plasma pre-cooler, causing a number of injuries among the crew. Most serious among them is three serious cases of theta radiation poisoning, which appears to have unique effects on the Honiani. Unfortunately their sickbay was all but destroyed in the accident, so they are putting out a distress call to anyone that is nearby. With the current build up in other sectors, it looks like we're the only ship in range.
-
Captain's Log, USS Salnas, Stardate 25650.7
A new crisis is brewing around Seyek space, after a series of ships of various types have gone missing. They are calling in additional resources to assist in the search for the missing vessels, and to determine what has caused them to disappear.
With two civilian ships, a science ship and a freighter among the missing vessels, it is quickly reaching a crisis point.
-
Captain's Log, USS Stargazer, Stardate 25651.2 - Captain Maryam Ajam
The fleet has pulled into orbit around what appears to be a star with an active influence on its local subspace environment. It certainly isn't anything I've ever seen before, but it presents a great chance for exploration. And if we can understand what is causing this amazing quirk of nature, I think we can use it to find a hyper-efficient path through local subspace and shave a year off our journey!
Karen, that is, Fleet Command, is willing to pause here for a while to investigate, since the rest of the fleet agrees with me that it shows great promise.
-
Captain's Log, USS Dryad, Stardate 25651.3
I'm told that a pair of Honiani ships are headed to the stricken SS Ray of Okatha and should be here within a few days. Enough time for the lightly wounded, but these theta radiation cases are too serious. Unfortunately, we lack the raw materials to run through the synthesiser, since Honiani are rather new inclusions to the Federation. We will need to take these patients aboard and tend to them in our own sickbay as we head to a Rigellian colony at Apisces III, where we believe we can find the necessary material.
-
Captain's Log, USS Stalwart, Stardate 25651.5
Rioting has broken out on the Tellarite minor colony of Igrund Duk, near the Ord Grind Duk system. A consular team from the Diplomatic Service will be arriving in a week's time from Tellar Prime, but for the time being, we need to get a handle on the situation.
-
Captain's Log, USS Stargazer, Stardate 25651.7
An early discovery, there are some very unusual elements present in noteworthy amounts in the stellar core. I'll submit a full report once we have a better idea of what we're looking at here, but there is considerable tachyon activity within the core, and along the convection vectors where these elements are most present.
An early theory is that by tracking the solar surface activity near these convection points, and identifying imminent solar flares, we can identify jets of accelerate subspace that we can travel along.
-
Captain's Log, USS Salnas, Stardate 25651.9
After joining a Seyek search pattern, we have been surprised to find ourselves running into a Konen ship - a Silence-class battlecruiser, no less. After looking it over with my sensor officers, we have concluded it has performance akin to a more durability and combat focused Excelsior, something not to be tangled with likely. Thankfully, they appear to be conducting their own hunt for the cause of the missing ships, as they too have lost a pair of ships.
-
Captain's Log, USS Stalwart, Stardate 25652.1
The situation has not stabilised.
A separatist movement is rife in the colony, which has grievances against the Tellar Prime administration regarding what they believe is neglect. Unfortunately, a number of the hardliners took control of an orbital facility and used it to fire on the Stalwart. Damage was minimal, and shields came up shortly thereafter. Use of a system override code allowed us to drop their shields and then beam over boarding parties. The result was a bit of a mess, and I have three dead security personnel to show for it.
The FDS is rushing in extra consular officials, while the Tellarite State Forces are redirecting the TSS Miracht Agrad, plus an escort, to join us and try to get this situation under control.
[Lose -10pp, Tellarite fleet units tied down]
-
Captain's Log, USS Stargazer, Stardate 52652.5
The plan is locked in. We observed two solar flares and the corresponding subspace eddies. It appears a stable course can be plotted, and the eddy propogates out into neighbouring space at FTL speeds.
Fleet Command is forming up the fleet, and we have a pre-solar flare marked out for our ride.
-
Captain's Log, USS Dryad, Stardate 25653.2
We've just made the handover to the Honiani hospital ship. The radiation poisoning treatments worked as advertised, and we were able to obtain enough perscivinum on Apisces to treat each crew member, saving their lives. The Honiani have expressed their profound gratitude for the aid we have given them.
[Gain +10pp, +25 Relations with Honiani]
-
Captain's Log, USS Salnas, Stardate 25653.5
A macro-crystalline organism has been spotted, chasing a freighter! The rest of the Seyek ships are vectoring in. We have to be careful, as the crystalline structure disrupts subspace communications, which is why the lost ships have simply gone missing, we believe.
The Sign of Rethelia, recrewed and put to space in spite of the political crisis to address the disappearances, is vectoring a force in to engage the entity. We are hanging back and guiding their approach, as we are under orders to avoid risk to the ship during the current crisis.
The fleet is away! The plan worked perfectly, and we are managing an equivalent speed to a much higher warp factor in neutral subspace. This will shave a year of travel time off, and deposit us near a very interesting yet previously believed to be too far out of our way star cluster.
Captain's Logs are still my favorite part of this quest. They read so much like watching a star trek episode, the explorers especially. There's no better example of that than the Stargazer's log this month.
So we may have had our first Crystalline Entity sighting and another point we can throw on the 'go fast' technique pile. *rubs hands* Good, good.
Especially if the subspace surges are caused by the solar flares instead of the flares being symptomatic. Inducing solar flares is, let's be honest, mostly just expensive.
Ouch! Kind of devalues all the debate we had about the topic, given that we'll likely have to draw down on fleets from elsewhere now anyway.
Edit: And that's their Excelsior that's tied down there, I believe.
So we may have had our first Crystalline Entity sighting and another point we can throw on the 'go fast' technique pile. *rubs hands* Good, good.
Especially if the subspace surges are caused by the solar flares instead of the flares being symptomatic. Inducing solar flares is, let's be honest, mostly just expensive.
The SS Ray of Okatha, a Honiani freighter, has reported a blow out of the starboard warp plasma pre-cooler, causing a number of injuries among the crew. Most serious among them is three serious cases of theta radiation poisoning, which appears to have unique effects on the Honiani. Unfortunately their sickbay was all but destroyed in the accident, so they are putting out a distress call to anyone that is nearby. With the current build up in other sectors, it looks like we're the only ship in range.
Sorry we had to put that on a Miranda of all ship types. Glad they were able to see it through to a success.
Captain's Log, USS Salnas, Stardate 25651.9
After joining a Seyek search pattern, we have been surprised to find ourselves running into a Konen ship - a Silence-class battlecruiser, no less. After looking it over with my sensor officers, we have concluded it has performance akin to a more durability and combat focused Excelsior, something not to be tangled with likely. Thankfully, they appear to be conducting their own hunt for the cause of the missing ships, as they too have lost a pair of ships.
Looks like we're going to be seeing the Konen much more frequently now. Yeesh, those Silence-class ships sound tough! These aren't any Betazoids when it comes to ship-building. I wonder how they stack up to an Excelsior-A.
Captain's Log, USS Stalwart, Stardate 25652.1
The situation has not stabilised.
A separatist movement is rife in the colony, which has grievances against the Tellar Prime administration regarding what they believe is neglect. Unfortunately, a number of the hardliners took control of an orbital facility and used it to fire on the Stalwart. Damage was minimal, and shields came up shortly thereafter. Use of a system override code allowed us to drop their shields and then beam over boarding parties. The result was a bit of a mess, and I have three dead security personnel to show for it.
The FDS is rushing in extra consular officials, while the Tellarite State Forces are redirecting the TSS Agrad Miracht, plus an escort, to join us and try to get this situation under control.
Well crap. The pp loss stings badly enough, but now after all that argument we're not even going to get the Tellarite reinforcements as a replacement for the Vulcans. At least the Stalwart made its Hull/Shields check so we didn't have to deal with a damaged ship on top of everything else.
Captain's Log, USS Salnas, Stardate 25653.5
A macro-crystalline organism has been spotted, chasing a freighter! The rest of the Seyek ships are vectoring in. We have to be careful, as the crystalline structure disrupts subspace communications, which is why the lost ships have simply gone missing, we believe.
The Sign of Rethelia, recrewed and put to space in spite of the political crisis to address the disappearances, is vectoring a force in to engage the entity. We are hanging back and guiding their approach, as we are under orders to avoid risk to the ship during the current crisis.
That is a lot of ships lost for the Seyek, Years of production. The Konen didn't get off lightly either.
I'm glad we still had an Excelsior in the neighborhood to help out on this one. Literally only our non-EC Excelsior not tied up at war, I think. (I wonder how the crew feels about that.)
Captain's Log, USS Stargazer, Stardate 25654.5
The fleet is away! The plan worked perfectly, and we are managing an equivalent speed to a much higher warp factor in neutral subspace. This will shave a year of travel time off, and deposit us near a very interesting yet previously believed to be too far out of our way star cluster.
