True. But then again there's a political power cost to even get the refit Constellation, and for some reason it costs more PP to get the constellation refit than to design the Renaissance or a custom cruiser.
Well, that may be because a refit would upgrade ships we already have, whereas the Renaissance would be a purely theoretical ship until the prototype is built and launched. Incidentally, is the refit a design step, or does it jump us straight into refitting all of our constellations?
 
For the longer term, even with a cruiser heavy fleet, having smaller ships is good for having a chance to let captains prove themselves out and find their style on smaller ships first, before getting a chance at an Explorer.
 
I don't think anyone here is saying "Never build small ships again!" which is a pretty stupid thing to do in any case. We're just emphasizing the big boys
 
Well, that may be because a refit would upgrade ships we already have, whereas the Renaissance would be a purely theoretical ship until the prototype is built and launched. Incidentally, is the refit a design step, or does it jump us straight into refitting all of our constellations?
It gives us the option. The odd thing is that the refit projects for the Centaur and Miranda are cheaper than a new design.
 
It gives us the option. The odd thing is that the refit projects for the Centaur and Miranda are cheaper than a new design.
its probably because the constellations have already had one refit (im pretty sure), and the project is therefore that much more difficult to do, meaning the UFP needs to assign more resources to get the refit designs done quickly, thus increasing the political cost.
 
its probably because the constellations have already had one refit (im pretty sure), and the project is therefore that much more difficult to do, meaning the UFP needs to assign more resources to get the refit designs done quickly, thus increasing the political cost.
Nope. The Constitution class had a refit, not the Constellation.
 
Really, we're gonna have to replace the Constellations eventually, and I don't think it's worth it to upgrade them first at all. Being quite frank they're pieces of shit >_>
 
True. But then again there's a political power cost to even get the refit Constellation, and for some reason it costs more PP to get the constellation refit than to design the Renaissance or a custom cruiser.
Probably because the refit design is being outsourced to some other group. We just spend the pp, then a year later we're presented with the new refit design and can upgrade ships to it at our leisure.

Starting a new ship model project means we have to use our rp and design teams to actually do the work.
 
Really, we're gonna have to replace the Constellations eventually, and I don't think it's worth it to upgrade them first at all. Being quite frank they're pieces of shit >_>

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised at how bad they are. I'd always thought they were near-peers of the Constitutions (maybe a little better or a little worse). Certainly, Starfleet was canonically using them in large numbers into the Dominion War period, though they do seem to have been less important than the Obreth class, Miranda class or the Excelsior class each were (all of which were used in very large numbers right through to the DS9 period).

(Of course the out of character explanation for Starfleet getting over 100 years of use out of all these designs is because the TV shows were making use of the models built for the Trek movies.)

fasquardon
 
Why are we still building constellation then? Is it because it is so cheap? It is almost as cheap as Miranda and certainly cheaper than Centaur altough they are same level with Centaur only missing D1.
 
Why are we still building constellation then? Is it because it is so cheap? It is almost as cheap as Miranda and certainly cheaper than Centaur altough they are same level with Centaur only missing D1.

Well, there are several costs, the Centaur is cheaper in crew, the constellation is cheaper in sr. Those seem to be the limiting resources right now (we seem to have enough br that the cost difference there does not make any difference).

So picking between the two, if we don't have refit plans in mind, comes down to what we can project affording.

As the Federation, I think only building S2+ and P2+ ships going forward is a fine thing for general construction of even support ships.
 
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Omake - Light Cruiser Debate - Briefvoice
Light Cruiser Debate

The following is a partial transcript of a telepresence meeting hosted by Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson between two of her commodores, Sol Sector Command Commodore Kimberley Pragur and Andor Sector Command Commodore Brufraogm Wev. The topic of the meeting is usage of Constellation class light cruisers and whether they are worthy of further production and refit.

ERIKSSON: All right, I called the two of you because you both seem to have picked a side in the ongoing Constellation debate. Commodore Pragur, of all my immediate subordinates you seem to most favor continuation of the Constellation program and yes, I've read your papers on the subject. Commodore Wev, you've been pretty vocal in your opinion that we need to develop the next generation light cruiser as soon as possible. As for myself, I'm going to have to make a recommendation to Admiral Kahurangi. I want to hear the basis of your argument directly, and I want you to respond to each other's points. Commodore Wev, you go first- and keep things to the point, this is not an argument for your amusement.

WEV: Brief as you request, Admiral. As all my engineer friends have never tired of pointing out to me, the Constellation has the combat staying power and sensor package of a Centaur but it takes nearly 1/3 again as long to build and very nearly twice as many crew. The sole advantage it has is being slightly faster. Light cruisers should be the defensive backbone of our fleet, able to match up handle situations where a heavy cruiser is unavailable.

PRAGUR: Explorers, not heavy cruisers.

WEV: (sarcasm) Excuse my offensiveness in using a clearer term when discussing ship classes in terms of military responsiveness. I hope I am not offending your delicate sensibilities in-

ERIKSSON: Commodore Wev!

WEV: Why does Kimberley get to have all the fun? (snorts) Yes, Admiral, to stick to my point. You've seen the design goals for the proposed Renaissance project. It's a Constitution class come again, except with modern technology allowing for less crew and a cheaper, faster build time.

PRAGUR: Sensor package and general science support won't be as good.

WEV: It's not intended to go on five year missions! I'd say having superior shields is a more than worthwhile substitution. The Constitutions are what we should be aiming for in a light cruiser. In fact, my don't we just start building Constitutions again and call them light cruisers until we finish completion of the Renaissance?

ERIKSSON: Is that a serious suggestion?

WEV: Well.... those old Connie crew requirements are hard to support in the numbers we'd want for light cruisers.

PRAGUR: As you just pointed out, the Renaissance is hardly better! Sure they'll be great ships, but projected crew requirements aren't kind. Admiral, is it my turn to talk?

ERIKSSON: Go ahead, I think Wev has made his case. How do you answer the charge that Constellations are no better performing than a Centaur?

PRAGUR: My answer is the proposed refit upgrades. Look, the truth is that the Constellation was a design pushed out too quickly. The technology of the time didn't support the light cruiser that was envisioned, but we needed a light cruiser with the Klingon threat hanging over the Federation. So engineers left in some extra power to account for future upgrades and hoped the technology of the future would be up to the task. We are now at that future. In only a year and a half of integration work, we could have a light cruiser vastly improved in science and combat ability, with its speed advantage allowing it to make full use of both in responding to any crisis within its assigned sector. No it wouldn't be a Renaissance, but it'll be cheaper to build and cheaper to crew.

WEV: And easier to destroy.

PRAGUR: Brufraogm!

WEV: No, this is not quibbling over a point for fun. This is the key point. In serious fleet action, your refitted Constellation will be able to take no more hits than before the refit. Its shields and hull will be not stronger, and it will be destroyed as easily as a Centaur. It has less than half the durability of what we project for the Renaissance. It has only half the durability of a Connie, which again should be our standard for a light cruiser in this era.

ERIKSSON: You keep bringing up the Constitutions....

WEV: I served on one. They were- are, great ships. They were the Explorers of our day, and though they cannot fill that function any longer, they should be- That is, ships of equal ability should be the standard for defense of the Federation, standing behind our Explorers and ahead of our Escorts. I believe this with all my heart.

PRAGUR: And is that what we're building the Constellations for? Serious fleet actions?

ERIKSSON: We aren't?

PRAGUR: With respect Admiral... no we aren't. The day-to-day, year-to-year, job of the Constellation is not to fight in fleet actions. It is to respond to problems within its assigned sector, whether this be rescues or strange subspace phenomena. Combat is usually brief and decisive, and never gets to the point of even testing their durability.

ERIKSSON: Not necessarily true on the border regions. With the new Cardassian threat...

PRAGUR: Allow me to state my position clearly. We should refit the Constellations and use them to garrison the home sectors primarily. Borders should be secured by our Explorers, backed up by Escorts as necessary. If we use the ships like that, in a function suited to them, they're great ships. Once we build the Renaissance, and I anticipate we still want to wait a couple of years on starting that project so that Utopia Planetia can finish its research, I have no doubt we will continue to build Constellations.

ERIKSSON: A ship that can't be used on the border?

PRAGUR: A ship not designed for the border but that can still be used there. A light cruiser at home and yes, an escort equivalent on the border. These classes are just made up distinctions, you know. Who's to say we can't use a ship that's a hybrid between a light cruiser and an escort?

WEV: That still leaves us needing a light cruiser! What do you suggest we do if we don't build the Renaissance?

ERIKSSON: Build Constitutions.

WEV: Admiral, I told you I was not making a serious-

ERIKSSON: Oh, I think you were. And you know, I am seriously considering it. Why can't we build Connies anymore, as light cruisers rather than Explorers? As a stop-gap at least, to take the pressure off on doing the Renaissance project. Perhaps there's some workaround on the crew requirements; the last refit was thirty years ago after all. Even if there's no spare power for better performance, automation ought to help us cut the crew needs.

PRAGUR AND WEV: Admiral!!!

ERIKSSON: I know, I know... it's nothing but castles in the air at the moment. At least until a serious study is done, which I am assigning you jointly to do and have a preliminary report on my desk within the month. (laugh) I can't help but be amused at the thought of Captain Revak being informed that he's now officially in command of only a light cruiser.

(laughter all around)

PRAGUR: But Vice Admiral, what will be your recommendation to Admiral Kahurangi on the Constellation refit?

ERIKSSON: That's an answer I owe to her and not to you, Commodore. I'm going to have to think about it. Both of you made compelling arguments. Thank you for your attendance today.

WEV: The pleasure was mine. A brief debate, but an argument with real substance is always sweeter than any other. Kimberley, dinner the next time we're on the same planet?

PRAGUR: Wouldn't miss it, Brufraogm. You know I love that dish you make with the roots, and I can't wait to argue with you about... I don't know, we'll come up with something good. Maybe the Cardassians.

(laughter)

Transcript ends.
 
I lean towards modifying the Constitution-class for light cruiser duty, to have a reduced manpower requirement.
 
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Why? If we go ahead with the Renaissance, we get something just as good as a Connie that requires less crew and is a bit cheaper

I'm not saying you're wrong, but let's be clear about what it would take to "go ahead with the Renaissance". Let's say we have to do 13 or 14 technologies, all of them with two levels.

With a skill 4 Utopia Planetia design team, that's about 4 to 6 years of design work, and then another six years to build the prototype (because building the prototype takes twice as long as a regular model). So it's going to be between 10 to 12 years to develop the Renaissance. During the design period, we'd have to keep the UP design team totally devoted to that, and even though we get a nice research bonus to start it'll probably cost some rp by the end.

Very possibly that's well worth it, but sometimes I get the impression folks don't know what we're in for when it comes to "develop the Renaissance".
 
I'm not saying you're wrong, but let's be clear about what it would take to "go ahead with the Renaissance". Let's say we have to do 13 or 14 technologies, all of them with two levels.

With a skill 4 Utopia Planetia design team, that's about 4 to 6 years of design work, and then another six years to build the prototype (because building the prototype takes twice as long as a regular model). So it's going to be between 10 to 12 years to develop the Renaissance. During the design period, we'd have to keep the UP design team totally devoted to that, and even though we get a nice research bonus to start it'll probably cost some rp by the end.

Very possibly that's well worth it, but sometimes I get the impression folks don't know what we're in for when it comes to "develop the Renaissance".
With a skill 4 Utopia Planetia design team, that's about 4 to 6 3-4 years of design work, and then another six 4.5 years to build the prototype (because building the prototype takes twice as long as 50% longer than a regular model)

If we can design the Renaissance with only two levels, then it'll only take three years to develop, based on the project in this post.
If we have to push to three levels of extra tech (we probably do, to be honest - unless we wait all the way to the next levels of warp technology or other major power-saving techs), then it'll take a fourth year.

Personally, I wonder if we should kick off the project this year, since one year of new techs doesn't look like it will bring us down to three years of development time.

@OneirosTheWriter: how much of a research bonus do we get when kicking off a project?
Also, if we launch the Renaissance project, does that mean we have to exactly match the stats (including, especially, resource costs), without any changes?
 
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I do want to start the Renaissance project as well to have a better idea of how long it takes us to get new ships designed and into service. Also from the example we could finish in two years of research if the insights hit or we have at least 4 points of bonus from starting the project. As it is a refit takes six turns before we can start doing them.
 
I'm not saying you're wrong, but let's be clear about what it would take to "go ahead with the Renaissance". Let's say we have to do 13 or 14 technologies, all of them with two levels.

With a skill 4 Utopia Planetia design team, that's about 4 to 6 years of design work, and then another six years to build the prototype (because building the prototype takes twice as long as a regular model). So it's going to be between 10 to 12 years to develop the Renaissance. During the design period, we'd have to keep the UP design team totally devoted to that, and even though we get a nice research bonus to start it'll probably cost some rp by the end.

Very possibly that's well worth it, but sometimes I get the impression folks don't know what we're in for when it comes to "develop the Renaissance".
You should also add how long it is going to take for us to build enough of these ships to replace our current ones. That will take at least another few years, bringing it up to somewhere between 15 to 20 years. That is long ass time.

I think we should do both. Do the refit and start Renaissance as soon as it finishes.
 
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You should also add how long it is going to take for us to build enough of these ships to replace our current ones. That will take at least another few years, bringing it up to somewhere between 15 to 20 years. That is long ass time.

I think we should do both. Do the refit and start Renaissance as soon as it finishes.
I would rather not do the Constellation refit and instead just keep the existing ones as we build replacements. If there is a refit to do it would be the Centaur refit as it is a solid escort class with that. Constellations though would not be retired unless we needed their crew or were bumping into the combat cap.
 
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