In terms of resources, I'll point out we have more flexibility when it comes to spending resources on Excelsiors because we can pay for it with PP. So an explorer heavy build order wouldn't be an issue if we are willing to use some pp on it.

That is a fair and very good point. 20 PP. But would you say we should build three Excelsiors, or two (one with PP) and put the saved resources to filling out the fleet? That would come close to the 2:3 ratio @Nix wanted anyway.

That's not at all what Nix called for, he wants a mix of Explorers but with more explorers proportionally than what would be usual. He's not pushing for only explorers.. .:/

I know, but he also includes lines like "We could have a fleet composed 100% of explorers and the only possible problem would be not being able to split up as widely as if we had more ships". I believe such a statement is very wrong.




But ultimately, the question is whether we should spend our resources on Excelsior builds exclusively next year. That is the original statement I took issue with.
 
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Yes? It's a large issue that I'm not letting you gloss over.

And by no means is it the only problem, as I've already explained.
You don't really acknowledge the presence of problem Y though. You say that having only Explorers isn't a problem, but fail to recognise that that would cause a chronic numbers deficiency, with us being unable to chase down problems as they come up because we have insufficient hulls to cover them all.
Are the two of you deliberately wasting time to annoy me, or did you completely lose track of the thread of discussion?

If I had actually argued FOR position X then not properly addressing problem Y would be an issue (though pretending I hadn't even mentioned it would still be completely inappropriate). But I never did that! I never once argued for a 100% Explorer fleet. I argued for an Explorer per sector, possibly two, and at other times argued for similar numbers of explorers, cruisers and escorts. I mentioned the extreme case to make a point. If you want to actually argue against my position you'd need to not only show problems with the extreme case, you'd need to show that these problems still applied in the case I actually argued for.
 
Yes, our issue is not berths, but resources. And eventually we will need those 3m berths for ships other than our explorer-class vessels. But we're talking specifically about using every last one of our BR for two Excelsiors, not producing a balance. That's specifically what I'm objecting to. It would be different if we had more resources on hand or in income.
You mean the Niagara-class – which comes around in 2349, over four decades from now – and costs more BR than an Excelsior?

Personally, the solution here is to get more resources so we can keep building near berth capacity. The most straightforward way to do that is to find more resources in Exploration missions, but we should also keep researching mining. We could ask for budget increases, but I that's not reliable. In the meantime, as @Nervos Belli mentioned, we can ask for the cost of extra Excelsior.

That is a fair and very good point. 20 PP. But would you say we should build three Excelsiors, or two (one with PP) and put the saved resources to filling out the fleet? That would come close to the 2:3 ratio @Nix wanted anyway.
It's worth remembering the berths actually opening up. It looks like we're going to have three 3m t berths and three 1m t berths open. If we want to keep one of each kind open for repairs, that gives up two 3m t berths and two 1m t berth to fill. That seems to pretty clearly call for two Excelsiors plus two other slots for the rest of the fleet.
 
For me Constellations are a resource dump, they don't provide enough of a boost vs Centaur to justify the extra construction year. I would keep the ones we have and either push the Renissance project through or the Centaur refit.
 
Right now I'd rather have the Excelsior honestly. Three cruisers is very inefficient when it comes to crew. If we had a severe shortage of cruisers I'd agree, but we can shift ships around to cover any increasing defense costs without much difficulty.

In four years we will be facing a fairly severe shortage of cruisers. That's four years of diplomatic pushes, which will induct two, three, maybe four new members, four years of rising tensions with the Cardassians, and therefore four years where garrison costs are going to rise. We're at the point where 2 to 3 cruisers out of action will send us over the edge in available flexibility.

Are the two of you deliberately wasting time to annoy me, or did you completely lose track of the thread of discussion?

If I had actually argued FOR position X then not properly addressing problem Y would be an issue (though pretending I hadn't even mentioned it would still be completely inappropriate). But I never did that! I never once argued for a 100% Explorer fleet. I argued for an Explorer per sector, possibly two, and at other times argued for similar numbers of explorers, cruisers and escorts. I mentioned the extreme case to make a point. If you want to actually argue against my position you'd need to not only show problems with the extreme case, you'd need to show that these problems still applied in the case I actually argued for.

Did you read what I wrote? I spent one sentence arguing against your extreme example and 500 words arguing against everything else in support of more Excelsiors, and you cherry-picked the argument to disagree with. If you're going to pick at me for then responding to a post that contained literally one thing, then get off your high horse and actually engage the discussion.

We're allocating a number of current and future resources. In the present, we're looking at berths and BR and SR, which support two Excelsiors, or one Excelsior and two smaller ships. One more of each if we don't leave a berth free and spend PP. In the future, crews, and active ships to garrison requirements.

In the case of a crisis, sending Excelsiors to the crisis area is probably going to happen. Does that mean we shift cruisers back? Or that we can make that up with excess? In that case, do we actually have excess?

I don't think the math adds up. I think we need a few more cruisers now, to prevent a shortage in ~3 years and beyond to the conclusion of the Renaissance research program.


You mean the Niagara-class – which comes around in 2349, over four decades from now – and costs more BR than an Excelsior?

It's not very relevant to the present, yes. I was specifically addressing the point about what our 3m berths are going to be for. Right now, Excelsiors. But not forever. They do have future relevance.
 
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But I never did that! I never once argued for a 100% Explorer fleet.
I think we got the "we should only build Excellsiors this turn" conflated with/into (no idea how to use the word "conflated" incidentally) "Only build Excellsiors". Didn't help that your "X n Y" didn't work with anything that had been quoted in the statement you were addressing. Yes, you've said that we should have a certain ratio Ex:C:E, but we were tunnel-visioned on only your more recent statements. Just because we aren't idiots, doesn't mean you don't have to spell things out for us, sometimes. For instance, I would have backed down pretty damn fast if I had been aware of this:

It looks like we're going to have three 3m t berths and three 1m t berths open.
Makes the whole argument somewhat academic, if we can't use the resources saved from not building an Explorer to build a bunch of Cruisers.
 
Really, the whole argument on Constellations versus Excelsiors is pretty clearly in favor of Excelsiors since Constellations suck assballs. If you guys want to actually be taken seriously in such an argument then push for Renaissances next turn, otherwise the idea we'd build more Constellations over even Centaurs is laughable.
 
I'll say that if you are trying to convince me that you are worth spending time arguing with you aren't doing a very good job. But enough with that nonsense.

It's worth remembering the berths actually opening up. It looks like we're going to have three 3m t berths and three 1m t berths open. If we want to keep one of each kind open for repairs, that gives up two 3m t berths and two 1m t berth to fill. That seems to pretty clearly call for two Excelsiors plus two other slots for the rest of the fleet.
This isn't actually true, we'll have three open 1mt berths. The one we kept open before and the ones the Centaur and the Oberth are built in.

But if we are talking about the next few years specifically the idea of building ships just before getting a refit version some time in the next few years depending on when it fits into the budget is a bit ridiculous. Why start building ships that will be outdated before they even finish?
 
Do we have any WoG on what happens to affiliate ships when they join the Federation? Because that would potentially solve a lot of our problems. Amarkia has two explorers, three new cruisers, two old cruisers, three heavy escorts, and three light escorts. Based on the minor faction light ship stats, the three new cruisers plus escorts should have a total of D12, plus the D5 Starbase. I can't imagine Amarkia requiring more than D17, so even if we scrap the old cruisers we should still get a net plus to our defense from integrating them. The explorers were supposed to be roughly equal in stats to an excelsior, so those will be a nice contribution to the fleet.

Betazoid has less to offer, but being part of another sector it probably has even lower requirements than Andor or Tellar Prime.

Basically, if our affiliate's fleets join Starfleet with them, we shouldn't need to rush out a bunch of garrison ships really quickly.
 
Regarding the next snake pit, we should have at least 80pp. 13 left over from last time, earnings of 37 for the year, and that huge captains log q3 of 30.

Edit: Or not. I double checked after seeing the 32pp appear recently on the front page, and realized I mistook a science +5rp for pp, and that the 13pp in reserves might have been old. So, it was .5pp left after the Snake Pit, 10 earned in Q2, 30 in Q3, and 5 in Q4. 45, plus 32 (25 from 4 full members, 7 from 2 advanced affiliates, and +5/-5 from Nash & Valentia cancelliing each other out), gives 77. If we get 5 in Q1, the 80 to spend is still possible.
 
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You know, I've been thinking about something: Why is it that all starfleet vessels are armed in some way? I mean, if we want to prevent our combat score from maxing out, making it so that some of our vessels have no armaments whatsoever yet can have spaces for them to be affixed after construction is completed would be beneficial for us. In peacetime, they can be used as trade vessels or transports for federation personal within our space, or for researching phenomena occurring in the federation. However, in wartime, the weapons would be fitted onto the ships, and they would be used as a form of escort vessel. … Hmm, maybe with it being mandated that they could only be armed when a state of emergency is declared to make it more attractive to the council.
 
Do we have any WoG on what happens to affiliate ships when they join the Federation? Because that would potentially solve a lot of our problems. Amarkia has two explorers, three new cruisers, two old cruisers, three heavy escorts, and three light escorts. Based on the minor faction light ship stats, the three new cruisers plus escorts should have a total of D12, plus the D5 Starbase. I can't imagine Amarkia requiring more than D17, so even if we scrap the old cruisers we should still get a net plus to our defense from integrating them. The explorers were supposed to be roughly equal in stats to an excelsior, so those will be a nice contribution to the fleet.
Their fleet actually has combat 40, defense 37, and that is undercounting their strength because their ships have stronger shields and hulls than ours.
 
Their fleet actually has combat 40, defense 37, and that is undercounting their strength because their ships have stronger shields and hulls than ours.

Where is that from? I've just been using the general minor faction ship stats, but that sounds like their ships are at least as good as ours.
 
For the minor races they are likely not going to be available, earlier during the biophage crisis we were able to requisition a ship of the Andorian Guard so I imagine there existing fleets would be treated the sameway. That starbase on the other hand I hope we can take over since that will provide some of the defense requirement.
 
Where is that from? I've just been using the general minor faction ship stats, but that sounds like their ships are at least as good as ours.
anon_user got to design ships for our affiliates as omake reward and posted the designs in this thread. I reposted the link a few pages back. The easiest way to find it is probably to search my posts for "anon_user".

EDIT: I'm going to go ahead and post the link in the named ships threadmark. doesn't fit 100% but that way there is an easy way for people to find it.
 
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I would argue for 2 new Centaurs to replace soyuz as fast as possible. We have 2 of them already and 2 more would be enough to cover for them. And 4 soyuz would give us a bit of surplus for crew.
 
I'm figuring we'll get a few of the Amarki/Betazed ships as starfleet ships, and I'm really, really hoping we can get the designs because the modern Amarki fleet is amazing.

The Modern Amarki Cruiser is a straight upgrade from the Constellation and overall superior to the Constellation Refit - the Refit has one more science and defense in comparison to the Amarki Cruiser having 1 more hull and 2 more shields.

The Riala is actually arguably superior to the Excelsior - it sacrifices one point of science for a hull point and two shield points.

The escorts are a bit undergunned (2 combat) but the heavy escort somehow manages to get three hull and shields onto an escort sized frame.
 
You know, I've been thinking about something: Why is it that all starfleet vessels are armed in some way? I mean, if we want to prevent our combat score from maxing out, making it so that some of our vessels have no armaments whatsoever yet can have spaces for them to be affixed after construction is completed would be beneficial for us. In peacetime, they can be used as trade vessels or transports for federation personal within our space, or for researching phenomena occurring in the federation. However, in wartime, the weapons would be fitted onto the ships, and they would be used as a form of escort vessel. … Hmm, maybe with it being mandated that they could only be armed when a state of emergency is declared to make it more attractive to the council.

Even science vessels routinely use weapons for reasons other than self defence. And with the galaxy the deadly place that it is I'd rather have a pop gun than nothing.
 
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I'm figuring we'll get a few of the Amarki/Betazed ships as starfleet ships, and I'm really, really hoping we can get the designs because the modern Amarki fleet is amazing.

The Modern Amarki Cruiser is a straight upgrade from the Constellation and overall superior to the Constellation Refit - the Refit has one more science and defense in comparison to the Amarki Cruiser having 1 more hull and 2 more shields.

The Riala is actually arguably superior to the Excelsior - it sacrifices one point of science for a hull point and two shield points.

The escorts are a bit undergunned (2 combat) but the heavy escort somehow manages to get three hull and shields onto an escort sized frame.
It is true that the Amarki Cruiser would be markedly superior in a purely combat role to even the refit Constellation, but it costs 100br & 100sr compared to the refit Constellation costing 90br & 50sr.
 
It is true that the Amarki Cruiser would be markedly superior in a purely combat role to even the refit Constellation, but it costs 100br & 100sr compared to the refit Constellation costing 90br & 50sr.
True. But then again there's a political power cost to even get the refit Constellation, and for some reason it costs more PP to get the constellation refit than to design the Renaissance or a custom cruiser.
 
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