ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
If it will help the diplomatic efforts, we can record some stirring (but factually correct) tales of the valor of the defenders, and their bravely shedding blood to protect the colonists.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We don't cut them off from their central government. We just don't let the Sydraxians send in any military ships. The next governor can ride over in freighter or something. It's not our problem as long as they leave the guns behind.
It's probably not optimal but it becomes their problem if they reject an offer of "Yeah it's still yours" then it becomes a political not a military issue.
And We just make sure that military equipment doesn't slip through... and we have experience doing exactly that for the last six years. The experience of the Orion Civil War has given us the tools and experience we need to do this right.
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
All of which ties up personnel, ships, and resources dealing with a colony we don't really want, all while we still have the Cardassians to worry about.
What exactly does this plan of yours get us but headaches?
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Weirdly enough I'm pretty sure the Cardassians will not DOW if we make an ambiguos breach here, because.. we have the upper hand. The Cardassians are also liable to recognize that.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
A feeling of smug righteousness as we hamstring our GBZ operations on multiple levels.
That same experience tells us that it's not possible to prevent weapons smuggling or insurgent attacks by a determined and motivated opponent, only reduce or blunt them when they happen. Nor would the Sydraxians restrain themselves if they came with a fleet to liberate the colony. Your plan condemns hundreds, possibly a few thousand Starfleet personnel and Federation civilians to death in crewing the orbital infrastructure and defenses.
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Look, there are some strong opinions on this topic. At this stage, the resolution is up to the Council, we just have to implement whatever they decide.
And if things go exceedingly well for us, this is just the first - the Cardassians and the other affiliate have probably both started full colonies by now - so if we overrun those as well, we will have a precedent for what to do.
So yes, speculate, but don't get too worked up - we are not the decision makers on this one.
We have started mining operations, but have NOT started full colonies at this time - precisely because we don't know what the Pact forces will do if they force us off one like we just did to the Syndraxians. This event sets up all kinds of potential follow-ups from both sides.
And if things go exceedingly well for us, this is just the first - the Cardassians and the other affiliate have probably both started full colonies by now - so if we overrun those as well, we will have a precedent for what to do.
So yes, speculate, but don't get too worked up - we are not the decision makers on this one.
We have started mining operations, but have NOT started full colonies at this time - precisely because we don't know what the Pact forces will do if they force us off one like we just did to the Syndraxians. This event sets up all kinds of potential follow-ups from both sides.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Not deporting civilians with military force for one. Not pitting people with guns on foreign streets like people are determined to for another.
Like any "occupation" as I think of it isn't going to be a long term situation. Just long enough for the Sydraxians/Cardassians to get their shit sorted out.
No Federation occupation is ever going to be heavy handed. A ship in orbit as a tripwire is all we need.
If the half sized Sydraxian fleet comes back we hit it with the hose again. If they don't? Fine. All we care about is that this colony doesn't help the Sydraxians launch ships into our face. That's it.
(And for fucks sake why are we assuming they'll all starve? We give then a years worth of food and some farm supplies. Bam done.)
We can still voice our opinion.
OneirosTheWriter said:
You poor man. Why do you do this to yourself?
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Coming from someone who farms, you might as well just save yourself the trouble with the farm supplies
(Old farmer joke: how do you make a small fortune farming? You start with a large fortune. Then start farming.)
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Well, let's try ti see what each faction will go for:
Pacifists: Diplomacy of some sort, Leave the colony alone?
Expansionists: Diplomacy? Ruin the colony? Deport them?
Mercantalists: Pacifists?
Hawks: Ruin the colony?
Development: ..Leave the colony?
Honestly idk.
Pacifists: Diplomacy of some sort, Leave the colony alone?
Expansionists: Diplomacy? Ruin the colony? Deport them?
Mercantalists: Pacifists?
Hawks: Ruin the colony?
Development: ..Leave the colony?
Honestly idk.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Coming from someone who farms, you might as well just save yourself the trouble with the farm supplies
(Old farmer joke: how do you make a small fortune farming? You start with a large fortune. Then start farming.)
Honestly the Federation probably has mostly automated systems for farming that are designed for random refugees to set up in times of trouble. I expect it's not too much of a hassle as long as this isn't a deathworld.
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
I really have to disagree that evicting them by force would be any sort of ethical transgression. We're not talking about ordinary people just living their lifes being thrown out of their homes and reduced to refugees here.
These are state-sponsored settlers who were quite recently sent here as a part of the Sydraxian Hierarchy's bid to secure this planet for themselves. Kicking them back over the border without otherwise causing them any undue harm is entirely within the bounds of civilized behavior in the context of our current conflict with the Hierarchy.
That's possible, I guess. Certainly they'll try to portray it that way.
Though so far I didn't exactly get the impression that that was the nature of their relationship with the Gretarians. And I'd be willing to bet the decision makers among the Sydraxians are perfectly aware of the truth, and would be perfectly willing to "abandon" the Gretarians if they believed that to be in the Hierarchy's best interest.
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Outright impossible in my opinion. As far as I can see, small colonies considered part of the Federation are under the jurisdiction of some planet that actually has a Council seat.
Now to be fair, we recently heard about a human colony that elected not to be part of the Federation with the implication that it's not the only one. I suppose it would be possible to do something similar with the Sydraxian colony, but I have to think that human colony was founded with the idea of being independent and was prepped for it and understood that the surrounding space would be Federation-controlled. This Sydraxian colony was founded by people who want to be part of the Sydraxian Hierarchy... and they can't be.
I wouldn't be surprised if they begged to leave once told that they would be utterly at the mercy of the Federation for the rest of their colony's existence. Unless, of course, they're "volunteers" and came out there in the first place under threat of death.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'd be interested to know roughly how many Sydraxians there are on the colony. They must have shipped them in so it can't be millions and probably not even many thousands...
The entire point of this conflict is that none of us, especially the Cardassians, are willing to agree on who has a right to which of the unclaimed planets in the Gabriel Expanse. If we agree to simply concede all our claims to any planet the minute another faction sets up camp there, we're opening ourselves up to a lot of manipulation.
If we were talking about communities that had, say, existed long enough for the initial settlers to settle down and start raising children, I might feel rather differently about this.
If a bunch of Spaniards had shown up and hauled away Cartier's colonists at Charlesbourg-Royal, would that have constituted ethnic cleansing against the French? Obviously not from the Iroquois point of view, but would the picture be different had the Iroquois all lived a hundred miles away? A thousand miles away? On another continent?
[I feel weird realizing this post is on page 1535 of the thread]
Those are, as far as I can see, our choices.
The Sydraxians still have a fleet. Big space battles between them and us haven't worked out well for them, but so far the Ashalla Pact has managed to at least hold their own in raiding operations against individual ships. We can't keep the big force that captured this system in the first place here indefinitely, and as soon as most of our ships leave, if the Sydraxians want to try to get revenge with whatever's left of their fleet (or swallow their tattered pride and beg Cardassians to do it for them), they can. Any small force we leave near this colony is vulnerable to attack, making it very difficult to secure the colony.
It'd be a lot easier to, say, relocate them to a planet we're in a better position to secure, and then supply them with their every need.
Then the Sydraxian military survivors make trouble for us on the planet. I'd much rather have the problem of keeping POWs than the problem of having said POWs causing chaos among a civilian population we're trying to keep under control.
Understood, but we do have something of a conflict here. Because you just know the Cardassians will be quite happy to put little tent cities of civilian colonists on every vaguely habitable planet they find, regardless of whether they're prepared to make any use of the planet's resources. Because they know if they can just 'mark their territory' with civilian colonies, even a few hundred of them, we won't move them because that would be ethnic cleansing.
The entire point of this conflict is that none of us, especially the Cardassians, are willing to agree on who has a right to which of the unclaimed planets in the Gabriel Expanse. If we agree to simply concede all our claims to any planet the minute another faction sets up camp there, we're opening ourselves up to a lot of manipulation.
If we were talking about communities that had, say, existed long enough for the initial settlers to settle down and start raising children, I might feel rather differently about this.
Put this way.
If a bunch of Spaniards had shown up and hauled away Cartier's colonists at Charlesbourg-Royal, would that have constituted ethnic cleansing against the French? Obviously not from the Iroquois point of view, but would the picture be different had the Iroquois all lived a hundred miles away? A thousand miles away? On another continent?
[I feel weird realizing this post is on page 1535 of the thread]
If we can negotiate with the Hierarchy over this, great- they'd probably love an independent negotiated agreement at this point since every time they try to grab more of the Expanse we keep blowing up their forts. If the Hierarchy proves obstinate, we end up having to either administer and control the colony ourselves, remove the colonists, or acknowledge that anyone who plants a tent city on a Gabriel Expanse planet has permanently established their claim to it at our expense.
Those are, as far as I can see, our choices.
The big problem here is that making sure the colony isn't used as a staging ground, and maintaining a Federation presence in the system, is going to put a hella big stretch on our supply lines and expose us to raiding. It's very close to Sydraxian territory, if they want to keep fighting us.
The Sydraxians still have a fleet. Big space battles between them and us haven't worked out well for them, but so far the Ashalla Pact has managed to at least hold their own in raiding operations against individual ships. We can't keep the big force that captured this system in the first place here indefinitely, and as soon as most of our ships leave, if the Sydraxians want to try to get revenge with whatever's left of their fleet (or swallow their tattered pride and beg Cardassians to do it for them), they can. Any small force we leave near this colony is vulnerable to attack, making it very difficult to secure the colony.
It'd be a lot easier to, say, relocate them to a planet we're in a better position to secure, and then supply them with their every need.
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aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
They're Federation Hawks, not Klingon Hawks. Someone willing to attack a colony full of civilians has a snowball's chance in hell of getting a seat on the Council no matter the faction.
This is, apparently, a conversational topic but I can make arguments for every faction wanting the colonists evacuated:
Pacafists: They are civilians in a war zone. Evacuate them to a safe destination of their choosing.
Expansionists: The Sydraxians are trying to use civilians to lock down their control of GBZ territory and curtail our growth. Returning the civilians to Sydraxian space neatly solves both problems.
Mercantiles: This colony is being used to deny us access to the rich mineral resources of the area. It must be removed.
Hawks: Never leave an enemy at your back. We need to colonize this world to prevent the Sydraxians from accessing the GBZ both now and in the future. Send the colonists home.
Development: Our activities in the GBZ are already stretching our logistical support systems to the breaking point. We simply can't spare the ships and personnel needed to support a colony out in the GBZ. It doesn't matter if it's ours or the enemy's. Send the colonists home before they starve.
Pacafists: They are civilians in a war zone. Evacuate them to a safe destination of their choosing.
Expansionists: The Sydraxians are trying to use civilians to lock down their control of GBZ territory and curtail our growth. Returning the civilians to Sydraxian space neatly solves both problems.
Mercantiles: This colony is being used to deny us access to the rich mineral resources of the area. It must be removed.
Hawks: Never leave an enemy at your back. We need to colonize this world to prevent the Sydraxians from accessing the GBZ both now and in the future. Send the colonists home.
Development: Our activities in the GBZ are already stretching our logistical support systems to the breaking point. We simply can't spare the ships and personnel needed to support a colony out in the GBZ. It doesn't matter if it's ours or the enemy's. Send the colonists home before they starve.
- Location
- between Venus and Mars
While it's not the best option in the world, we could reassign crew from a ship that needs even more yard time. this policy would only work for so long. eventually you run out of "yard crew" to draw from. it's a stop gap measure, but needs must.
maybe a hard scan of the target for precise fireing coordinates to hit the transporter interference device onboard. drop the shields. hit the device. beam their crew into *cough*space*cough* our brig or cargo hold to be disarmed.
Maybe; But how would we get them back over the border? Suggest a plan.
These people are more trouble than their worth so I advocate leaving them. We can just keep vaporizing Sydraxian Outposts/bases in-system until they finally take the hint and leave.
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Remember-- in order to transport, our shields need to be down too. And our transporter rooms can only handle a small group of people at a time.
1. Force all the colonists onto a colony ship (or whatever transport is best equipped for the task).
2. Escort the ship out of the Gabriel Border zone and onto a couple of month journey through Federation territory and into Yrillian space.
3. Get the Yrillian faction sympathetic to us to agree to temporarily host the Sydraxians on one of their worlds or even Ethur II itself. (Bribe them if necessary.)
4. After we leave, the Yrillians call the Sydraxians and tell them that their colonists are here for pick-up.
I'm sure, christhewriter90, that you can find some holes and "did you think of" to throw at that plan, but I believe it's certainly the bones of a plan that Starfleet Tactical could take and mold into something workable.
I only have a problem here. Why not take them to the Sydraxian border?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Because the Sydraxians might shoot first and ask questions later, or because the Cardassians might interpret our interaction with the Sydraxians as 'attempt at diplomacy' or some such. Using the Yrillians as cutouts reduces the risk.
We just need to be subtle about it. Remember FDS' response to the Treaty of Celos:
That said I think we should approach the Cardassians and ask them to arrange for the Sydraxian colonists to be picked up. Rub it into the Sydraxian's faces that instead of gaining an ally against the Federation they've gained a master.